Bull Ring Antifa on Individualism and Collectivism vs. emilynghiem on divide and conquer


Constitutionalist / Universalist
Jan 21, 2010
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National Freedmen's Town District
Overdue response: I promised to take up antifa on the challenge of addressing individualism. I argued it wasn't the individualism that was the problem, but the abuse of it. And the PROPER use of individualism is what can resolve the racist conflicts dividing people against each other by groups.

My argument is that EITHER individualism or collectivism can be abused to harass and bully as a means of "divide and conquer". Both approaches can be used to help or hurt the negotiations process, and either block collaboration or facilitate conflict resolution by addressing issues both as individuals and as leading in groups.

My argument is that the relationship between people must be restored first,
then there is no need to abuse EITHER individualism or collectivism to bully down the other person or group.

Once we restore working relations between people, one on one, then we can rebuild relations between groups using that same process. This DOES take working INDIVIDUALLY so that is where I see the strength and key method that individualism lends to the process.

We work as individuals first, then we build collectively second.

The problem as antifa correctly points out, the defense against racial charges tends to focus on using individualism to excuse and justify while abusing collective mentality to attack and demean the opposing voices. So this is unequal, and I agree that is abusing individualism as well as collectivism.

Where I disagree: I find that the racial arguments ALSO abuse collectivism
and excuse one side while attacking the other as a group.

I argue both sides become guilty of abusing the collective card to attack each other.
I argue the individualism approach breaks down this pack mentality by addressing
and respecting individuals instead of fighting and demonizing each other as "representing a whole group"
which blocks communications and corrections.

So I agree with antifa on maybe 60% but ran into this one
issue where I defend individualism as the key to breaking down barriers of racism.

First step is to receive and respect each other as individuals
regardless what groups we blame or associate what with including each other.

Once we respect one another as individuals, then we can build better group dynamics
that don't abuse EITHER individual or collective approaches.

The fear of groups bullying has to be removed first.
and I find that best achieve one on one.

If we don't remove the FEAR factor first, that's why the abuse occurs as defense mechanism
including preemptive strikes.

What people do is assess the other person and start making lists of what they
can align with or what they fear. If they see black or white, male or female,
conservative or liberal, they will use whatever of those either helps align on
common values or helps justify "three strikes you're out" -- whatever is easier.

If we do not feel we have enough in common to overcome the strikes dividing us,
then people will go with striking each other down and out That resolves the conflicts faster.

But if we see there is a common goal and potential that trumps the differences and odds against us,
then we will be more open to seeing past those differences conflicts or barriers.

So the relationship the motivation that brings people together
has to be stronger than any conflicts pushing to separate or divide us from each other.

Do we act out of fear, or do we keep greater faith
that we can overcome and achieve greater goals together than fighting against each other?

That fear factor, whether we forgive or we rise above for higher purposes and potential,
that is what determines if people use individualism or collectivism to
unite and build or to divide and destroy.

I believe we need both individualism and collectivism.
Some people follow and work collectively and need to be led by others.
Others need to lead and defend their own agenda and beliefs first before
trusting other groups to respect and include that.

We need both approaches, and make sure neither gets abused.

antifa is right that the problem with white-dominant culture
is imbalance in putting individualism before collective impact on others
not counted equally. But I am adding to that, that the opposing groups
are also doing that and abusing collectivism to threaten individual rights and consent.

So two wrongs don't fix the original problem but compound it.

What I find the saving grace is that within the Constitutional approach
associated more with White dominant culture is that individual rights
are protected from abuse of collective authority for oppression.

and that individual protection is enforced by Constitutional empowerment
education and enforcement of freedom of speech and press and right to petition through democratic due process. These are natural laws given equally by nature to all people; however the Constitution put these in writing, similar to how the Bible put divine laws in written form
so that people could be equally educated and liberated by invoking these laws directly.
Both the written laws of the church and state are to be used by the people to rebuke
grievances and hold both church and state leaders in check. These laws are written for all people to use to defend right from wrong, but currently the imbalance in education and access to resources put this power of knowledge of the laws in the hands of the few.

So we need to USE and expand on this "knowledge of the laws" to defend democratic process from oppression and abuses. And it comes from teaching this very process that Constitutionalists and Whites are
seen as abusing for dominance because of disparity in education and experience in
invoking and enforcing such authority.

The key is not to dismantle this authority and source of empowerment, but to share it equally with all people. We can do this through freedom of the press, it is an attainable goal and one that is necessary if we are going to see Equal Justice Under Law and true peace in society, starting with our local relations and working collectively for society and nations to stabilize working relations for peace and security based on this same foundation.

So again that is where I see the individual approach as the key to educating
and restoring equal relations among all people, and then the groups will follow.

Thank you and sorry for this late response.
I support antifa and others taking on these challenges
and that's how I see the solution, by working together not attacking and
blaming one group more than another, but calling all groups to solve these
issues together so we make the most of all our leaders and resources,
and use both individualism and collectivism to represent the people of all groups and approaches equally.
Last edited:


Constitutionalist / Universalist
Jan 21, 2010
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National Freedmen's Town District
Don't allow them to divide you....

So again that is where I see the individual approach as the key to educating
and restoring equal relations among all people, and then the groups will follow.
If Christ and all the Gods created on the Earth couldn't do it, how can humans?
Dear Mods please allow Moonglow's post to stand as part of my posts because
it is helping to clarify my post.

Moonglow Jesus explained we would do greater works than even he.
Because we can do the healing and reform work he did, but in greater
numbers in all relations that we can reach. So we are doing the same
work but in an integrated way IRL. We bring it to all relations on earth.

It IS through Christ or by conscience that we can fulfill this process
for which Jesus Christ did his part to make possible.

We can't do it without unity in Christ, and Christ cannot work
through us without our free will in agreeing to receive and share
in relations with each other.

the answer is yes to both. God and Christ are able to work these
healing process and energy through our relations, and yes we have
to make the free will conscious choice to receive and accept to
be vehicles for that process to fulfill itself.

we have to choose to forgive.
Nobody can ever be forced to forgive or it isn't real.
And once we agree to forgive, to ask help with forgiveness,
and to receive forgiving grace in our relations,
then YES that is how God's will works through Christ.

This is the process of Restorative Justice that
Christ Jesus represents embodies and fulfills.

We the people are the church body the vehicle
through which this Restorative Justice lives and flows.

So until we are ready to receive, the process is obstructed.
that is why we have failed in the past, but with knowledge
and understanding of the process instead of fear,
we can make the process work and finish the
establishing of peace and justice by agreement in truth.

Thanks Moonglow for hlping to clarify my statement


Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2011
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sw mizzouri
I deleted it out because I didn't notice the Bull Ring position..Carry-on...

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