CDZ Another Question for Gun Owners

[Skull Pilot]

Please show us a link to the kellerman study.....or hemenway..another anti gunner who fudges his research....

It seems I remember reading, of that fraudulent statistic, that it even counted, in some instances, as guns “in the home”, guns that were brought into the home by criminals, in the course of attacking the occupants of the home.

Nope.

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality

Abstract
This study used national data and a matched case-control design to estimate the relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot associated with having firearms in the home. A sample of adults who died in the United States in 1993 from unintentional gunshot injuries was drawn from the National Mortality Followback Survey (NMFS) (n=84). Twenty controls were sought for each case from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and matched to the cases by sex, age group, race, and region of residence (n=1451). Subjects were classified as having or not having guns in the home based interview responses. The relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot injury, comparing subjects living in homes with and without guns, was 3.7 (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.9–7.2). Adjustment for covariates resulted in little change in the effect estimates. There was evidence of a dose-response effect: compared to subjects living in homes with no guns, the relative risk was 3.4 (95% CI=1.5–7.6) among subjects with one gun and 3.9 (95% CI=2.0–7.8) among subjects with multiple guns in the home. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates. Tests of homogeneity showed that the effect estimates did not vary significantly across categories of the matching variables. Firearms in the home appear to be a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality among adults. The magnitude of the observed effect estimates should be compared with those from additional studies.

People with cars are more likely to get in car accidents than people without cars

Cars' primary purpose is not killing.

Careful, some halfwit will claim his tiny little wife can't manage a shotgun for home defense and will suggest the car is her best option.

My wife is a damn good shot with a shotgun. She beats a lot of my friends at the trap range

 

[2aguy]

They have?

Do you have some proof of this "begging"?

BTW people even criminals do not walk the streets with "assault" rifles. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals as they are more easily concealable

Assault weapons are the weapon of choice for mass shootings.

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Each year, according to a study from the bill clinton Department of Justice, Americans use guns every year 1,500,000 times to stop violent crime and to save lives...even to stop mass shooters....

in 2014....8,124 people were murdered with guns.......including mass shootings....

1,500,000 vs. 8,124

can you tell which number is bigger?

Also.....as more Americans have owned and actually carried guns.... over 13,000,000 people carrying guns now for self defense..........the gun crime rate has gone down, not up....

in mass shootings that were not gun free zones, the lives saved were greater than the lives taken......

even in Dallas.....5 people dead with immediate armed resistance....

Orlando...300 unarmed people...49 killed....

Gun free zones kill.....

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

And of course you always get the anti gunner bait and switch....

The Dishonest Gun-Control Debate, by Kevin D. Williamson, National Review


Take this, for example, from ThinkProgress’s Zack Beauchamp, with whom I had a discussion about the issue on Wednesday evening: “STUDY: States with loose gun laws have higher rates of gun violence.” The claim sounds like an entirely straightforward one. In English, it means that there is more gun violence in states with relatively liberal gun laws.
But that is of course not at all what it means.

In order to reach that conclusion, the authors of the study were obliged to insert a supplementary measure of “gun violence,” that being the “crime-gun export rate.” If a gun legally sold in Indiana ends up someday being used in a crime in Chicago, then that is counted as an incidence of gun violence in Indiana, even though it is no such thing.

This is a fairly nakedly political attempt to manipulate statistics in such a way as to attribute some portion of Chicago’s horrific crime epidemic to peaceable neighboring communities.

And even if we took the “gun-crime export rate” to be a meaningful metric, we would need to consider the fact that it accounts only for those guns sold legally.

Of course states that do not have many legal gun sales do not generate a lot of records for “gun-crime exports.” It is probable that lots of guns sold in Illinois end up being used in crimes in Indiana; the difference is, those guns are sold on the black market, and so do not show up in the records. The choice of metrics is just another way to put a thumb on the scale.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Thinking that a ban on assault weapons would somehow get them out of the hands of criminals, who by definition don't follow the law, is not common sense, it's lack thereof. The government in question would only be weakening the ability of citizens to defend themselves, while criminals would continue being able to use them. We've already had MANY stupid threads like this.

We don't take that approach legally to any other issue relative to the law do we, not one.

Other laws don't hinder the ability of citizen's to defend themselves.

Neither would this one done properly, you have never defended yourself with a gun, much less an assault style weapon. You need home protection? Shot gun, covered, and much better.

Yes, it would, laws don't prevent criminals from using assault weapons, but it would prevent citizens from using them for self protection. Assault weapons are more effective than a shot gun, show guns fire 1-2 shots, then have to be reloaded, and won't shoot as far. I also just pointed out that criminals will ignore the law. So, you're hindering citizens and doing nothing to criminals. the law is counterproductive.

Might as well jetison laws against murder, folks keep doing it, same, "logic". I own, I carry, unlike most of you, I don't claim to know the answer to what is a societal problem. But many of you will never even consider a conversation, so here we will remain for what I feel to be forever. I've already accepted that here in america, this is the best we can do, and mass murders are just a way of life in american society - even of school children. That's just who we've chosen to be as a people and what we;re willing to abide with.

And then next time we'll act shocked and have the same "conversations" again while accepting this as part of american culture.

Oh, I didn't realize we had a constitutional right to murder. LOL what a childish comparison.

 

[Fenton Lum]

We don't take that approach legally to any other issue relative to the law do we, not one.

Other laws don't hinder the ability of citizen's to defend themselves.

Neither would this one done properly, you have never defended yourself with a gun, much less an assault style weapon. You need home protection? Shot gun, covered, and much better.

Yes, it would, laws don't prevent criminals from using assault weapons, but it would prevent citizens from using them for self protection. Assault weapons are more effective than a shot gun, show guns fire 1-2 shots, then have to be reloaded, and won't shoot as far. I also just pointed out that criminals will ignore the law. So, you're hindering citizens and doing nothing to criminals. the law is counterproductive.

Might as well jetison laws against murder, folks keep doing it, same, "logic". I own, I carry, unlike most of you, I don't claim to know the answer to what is a societal problem. But many of you will never even consider a conversation, so here we will remain for what I feel to be forever. I've already accepted that here in america, this is the best we can do, and mass murders are just a way of life in american society - even of school children. That's just who we've chosen to be as a people and what we;re willing to abide with.

And then next time we'll act shocked and have the same "conversations" again while accepting this as part of american culture.

Oh, I didn't realize we had a constitutional right to murder. LOL what a childish comparison.

I apologize for posting over your head.

 

[Howey]

Please show us a link to the kellerman study.....or hemenway..another anti gunner who fudges his research....

It seems I remember reading, of that fraudulent statistic, that it even counted, in some instances, as guns “in the home”, guns that were brought into the home by criminals, in the course of attacking the occupants of the home.

Nope.

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality

Abstract
This study used national data and a matched case-control design to estimate the relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot associated with having firearms in the home. A sample of adults who died in the United States in 1993 from unintentional gunshot injuries was drawn from the National Mortality Followback Survey (NMFS) (n=84). Twenty controls were sought for each case from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and matched to the cases by sex, age group, race, and region of residence (n=1451). Subjects were classified as having or not having guns in the home based interview responses. The relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot injury, comparing subjects living in homes with and without guns, was 3.7 (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.9–7.2). Adjustment for covariates resulted in little change in the effect estimates. There was evidence of a dose-response effect: compared to subjects living in homes with no guns, the relative risk was 3.4 (95% CI=1.5–7.6) among subjects with one gun and 3.9 (95% CI=2.0–7.8) among subjects with multiple guns in the home. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates. Tests of homogeneity showed that the effect estimates did not vary significantly across categories of the matching variables. Firearms in the home appear to be a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality among adults. The magnitude of the observed effect estimates should be compared with those from additional studies.

People with cars are more likely to get in car accidents than people without cars

Cars' primary purpose is not killing.

And the guns purpose is not to kill either...in fact, it often does it's job...keeping the owner safe from hunger and violent attack, without firing a shot......

Bull. The gun is the only tool used by man designed with one purpose and one only - to kill.

 

[Howey]

Police around the nation have for years begged for assault weapons like those used in Dallas to be taken off the streets. They're overwhelmed.

If you claim to support the police, why not support them by supporting common sense regulation of these weapons and clips, etc?

They have?

Do you have some proof of this "begging"?

BTW people even criminals do not walk the streets with "assault" rifles. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals as they are more easily concealable

Assault weapons are the weapon of choice for mass shootings.

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Which shootings were done with legally obtained guns?

You're obsessing on removing guns from legal owners who commit a tiny fraction of the crimes and ignoring the shooting galleries in our inner cities and other places where most of the murders and crimes are committed with illegal guns.

Do you see anything logically inconsistent with that approach?

A better question would be "Which of those shootings were done by mentally deranged people who should have never been able to legally obtain that weapon?"

 

[Howey]

Police around the nation have for years begged for assault weapons like those used in Dallas to be taken off the streets. They're overwhelmed.

If you claim to support the police, why not support them by supporting common sense regulation of these weapons and clips, etc?

They have?

Do you have some proof of this "begging"?

BTW people even criminals do not walk the streets with "assault" rifles. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals as they are more easily concealable

Assault weapons are the weapon of choice for mass shootings.

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

You guys made Newton a gun free zone....you guys made the Aurora theater a gun free zone....you guys made that church a gun free zone...

In each one of those cases....the ones you just mentioned...the shooters, from their notes....picked them out because they were gun free zones.......they decided not to attack other targets that they discovered were not gun free, then picked gun free zones.....

You are the problem..not the NRA...

Did the Dallas shooter pick a gun free zone?

 

[Fair&Balanced]

It seems I remember reading, of that fraudulent statistic, that it even counted, in some instances, as guns “in the home”, guns that were brought into the home by criminals, in the course of attacking the occupants of the home.

Nope.

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality

Abstract
This study used national data and a matched case-control design to estimate the relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot associated with having firearms in the home. A sample of adults who died in the United States in 1993 from unintentional gunshot injuries was drawn from the National Mortality Followback Survey (NMFS) (n=84). Twenty controls were sought for each case from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and matched to the cases by sex, age group, race, and region of residence (n=1451). Subjects were classified as having or not having guns in the home based interview responses. The relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot injury, comparing subjects living in homes with and without guns, was 3.7 (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.9–7.2). Adjustment for covariates resulted in little change in the effect estimates. There was evidence of a dose-response effect: compared to subjects living in homes with no guns, the relative risk was 3.4 (95% CI=1.5–7.6) among subjects with one gun and 3.9 (95% CI=2.0–7.8) among subjects with multiple guns in the home. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates. Tests of homogeneity showed that the effect estimates did not vary significantly across categories of the matching variables. Firearms in the home appear to be a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality among adults. The magnitude of the observed effect estimates should be compared with those from additional studies.

People with cars are more likely to get in car accidents than people without cars

Cars' primary purpose is not killing.

And the guns purpose is not to kill either...in fact, it often does it's job...keeping the owner safe from hunger and violent attack, without firing a shot......

Bull. The gun is the only tool used by man designed with one purpose and one only - to kill.

That simply isn't true. Almost every tool was originally designed to kill. Some were also put to other uses as well, but the primary purpose of most tools was originally to kill.

Guns , likewise , have other uses besides killing.

Just because SOME people use guns to kill does not mean that is the only use of guns.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It seems I remember reading, of that fraudulent statistic, that it even counted, in some instances, as guns “in the home”, guns that were brought into the home by criminals, in the course of attacking the occupants of the home.

Nope.

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality

Abstract
This study used national data and a matched case-control design to estimate the relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot associated with having firearms in the home. A sample of adults who died in the United States in 1993 from unintentional gunshot injuries was drawn from the National Mortality Followback Survey (NMFS) (n=84). Twenty controls were sought for each case from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and matched to the cases by sex, age group, race, and region of residence (n=1451). Subjects were classified as having or not having guns in the home based interview responses. The relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot injury, comparing subjects living in homes with and without guns, was 3.7 (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.9–7.2). Adjustment for covariates resulted in little change in the effect estimates. There was evidence of a dose-response effect: compared to subjects living in homes with no guns, the relative risk was 3.4 (95% CI=1.5–7.6) among subjects with one gun and 3.9 (95% CI=2.0–7.8) among subjects with multiple guns in the home. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates. Tests of homogeneity showed that the effect estimates did not vary significantly across categories of the matching variables. Firearms in the home appear to be a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality among adults. The magnitude of the observed effect estimates should be compared with those from additional studies.

People with cars are more likely to get in car accidents than people without cars

Cars' primary purpose is not killing.

And the guns purpose is not to kill either...in fact, it often does it's job...keeping the owner safe from hunger and violent attack, without firing a shot......

Bull. The gun is the only tool used by man designed with one purpose and one only - to kill.

The purpose is to fire a projectile at a target
The killing part is up to the person choosing the target

 

[kaz]

They have?

Do you have some proof of this "begging"?

BTW people even criminals do not walk the streets with "assault" rifles. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals as they are more easily concealable

Assault weapons are the weapon of choice for mass shootings.

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Which shootings were done with legally obtained guns?

You're obsessing on removing guns from legal owners who commit a tiny fraction of the crimes and ignoring the shooting galleries in our inner cities and other places where most of the murders and crimes are committed with illegal guns.

Do you see anything logically inconsistent with that approach?

A better question would be "Which of those shootings were done by mentally deranged people who should have never been able to legally obtain that weapon?"

OK, which ones?

 

[saveliberty]

The police used a robot and C4.

 

[GaryDog]

Nope.

Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality

Abstract
This study used national data and a matched case-control design to estimate the relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot associated with having firearms in the home. A sample of adults who died in the United States in 1993 from unintentional gunshot injuries was drawn from the National Mortality Followback Survey (NMFS) (n=84). Twenty controls were sought for each case from the 1994 National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) and matched to the cases by sex, age group, race, and region of residence (n=1451). Subjects were classified as having or not having guns in the home based interview responses. The relative risk of death by an unintentional gunshot injury, comparing subjects living in homes with and without guns, was 3.7 (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.9–7.2). Adjustment for covariates resulted in little change in the effect estimates. There was evidence of a dose-response effect: compared to subjects living in homes with no guns, the relative risk was 3.4 (95% CI=1.5–7.6) among subjects with one gun and 3.9 (95% CI=2.0–7.8) among subjects with multiple guns in the home. Having handguns in the home was associated with the largest effect estimates. Tests of homogeneity showed that the effect estimates did not vary significantly across categories of the matching variables. Firearms in the home appear to be a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality among adults. The magnitude of the observed effect estimates should be compared with those from additional studies.

People with cars are more likely to get in car accidents than people without cars

Cars' primary purpose is not killing.

And the guns purpose is not to kill either...in fact, it often does it's job...keeping the owner safe from hunger and violent attack, without firing a shot......

Bull. The gun is the only tool used by man designed with one purpose and one only - to kill.

The purpose is to fire a projectile at a target
The killing part is up to the person choosing the target

Well then there goes the 2nd Amendment argument.

 

[GaryDog]

Assault weapons are the weapon of choice for mass shootings.

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Each year, according to a study from the bill clinton Department of Justice, Americans use guns every year 1,500,000 times to stop violent crime and to save lives...even to stop mass shooters....

in 2014....8,124 people were murdered with guns.......including mass shootings....

1,500,000 vs. 8,124

can you tell which number is bigger?

Also.....as more Americans have owned and actually carried guns.... over 13,000,000 people carrying guns now for self defense..........the gun crime rate has gone down, not up....

in mass shootings that were not gun free zones, the lives saved were greater than the lives taken......

even in Dallas.....5 people dead with immediate armed resistance....

Orlando...300 unarmed people...49 killed....

Gun free zones kill.....

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

 

[2aguy]

An AR 15 or any other semiautomatic for that matter is not an "assault" weapon

And mass shootings represent 1% or less of all murders so let's concentrate on that and disregard the other 99%

that's always a good strategy

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Each year, according to a study from the bill clinton Department of Justice, Americans use guns every year 1,500,000 times to stop violent crime and to save lives...even to stop mass shooters....

in 2014....8,124 people were murdered with guns.......including mass shootings....

1,500,000 vs. 8,124

can you tell which number is bigger?

Also.....as more Americans have owned and actually carried guns.... over 13,000,000 people carrying guns now for self defense..........the gun crime rate has gone down, not up....

in mass shootings that were not gun free zones, the lives saved were greater than the lives taken......

even in Dallas.....5 people dead with immediate armed resistance....

Orlando...300 unarmed people...49 killed....

Gun free zones kill.....

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

 

[GaryDog]

I understand. Let's not be concerned about those children gunned down in Newtown, the moviegoers gunned down in Aurora, the church goers gunned down in Charleston, the gays gunned down in Orlando, or five cops gunned down in Dallas.

It's like the NRA and gun supporters have brought Hillary's oft- misquoted "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?" to a whole new level.

Each year, according to a study from the bill clinton Department of Justice, Americans use guns every year 1,500,000 times to stop violent crime and to save lives...even to stop mass shooters....

in 2014....8,124 people were murdered with guns.......including mass shootings....

1,500,000 vs. 8,124

can you tell which number is bigger?

Also.....as more Americans have owned and actually carried guns.... over 13,000,000 people carrying guns now for self defense..........the gun crime rate has gone down, not up....

in mass shootings that were not gun free zones, the lives saved were greater than the lives taken......

even in Dallas.....5 people dead with immediate armed resistance....

Orlando...300 unarmed people...49 killed....

Gun free zones kill.....

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

Actually, 7 of the 10 states with the highest suicide rates also have the most lax gun laws:

10 U.S. States With the Highest and Lowest Suicide Rates

And since you're suddenly interested in Hungary, Belgium, Finland, France, et al, why don't you check out the gun control laws in those countries, along with the gun death rates.

Finally, please cite the law in Japan that allows criminals to have guns. LOL

 

[2aguy]

Each year, according to a study from the bill clinton Department of Justice, Americans use guns every year 1,500,000 times to stop violent crime and to save lives...even to stop mass shooters....

in 2014....8,124 people were murdered with guns.......including mass shootings....

1,500,000 vs. 8,124

can you tell which number is bigger?

Also.....as more Americans have owned and actually carried guns.... over 13,000,000 people carrying guns now for self defense..........the gun crime rate has gone down, not up....

in mass shootings that were not gun free zones, the lives saved were greater than the lives taken......

even in Dallas.....5 people dead with immediate armed resistance....

Orlando...300 unarmed people...49 killed....

Gun free zones kill.....

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

Actually, 7 of the 10 states with the highest suicide rates also have the most lax gun laws:

10 U.S. States With the Highest and Lowest Suicide Rates

And since you're suddenly interested in Hungary, Belgium, Finland, France, et al, why don't you check out the gun control laws in those countries, along with the gun death rates.

Finally, please cite the law in Japan that allows criminals to have guns. LOL

Notice those states......they have bigger issues than guns for suicide.......lot's of loneliness, aclohol and drug use....and hanging is the most popular method of suicide around the world...in Japan....trains and tall buildings...


The law doesn't....that is the whole point...they get them anyway even in Japan..........

 

[GaryDog]

Doesn't seem to translate to real life...

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

Actually, 7 of the 10 states with the highest suicide rates also have the most lax gun laws:

10 U.S. States With the Highest and Lowest Suicide Rates

And since you're suddenly interested in Hungary, Belgium, Finland, France, et al, why don't you check out the gun control laws in those countries, along with the gun death rates.

Finally, please cite the law in Japan that allows criminals to have guns. LOL

Notice those states......they have bigger issues than guns for suicide.......lot's of loneliness, aclohol and drug use....and hanging is the most popular method of suicide around the world...in Japan....trains and tall buildings...


The law doesn't....that is the whole point...they get them anyway even in Japan..........

Guns have been proven to make suicide attempts more often successful, and also more tempting. This isn't really a controversial point. A death is a death.

You said suicide is an "intentional" act. Like homicide isn't??

You just proved that countries with serious gun control have much lower gun death rates. Was that your intention?

 

[2aguy]

Sorry.....they include suicide...that is how they get their numbers up...suicide doesn't count....and you need to link to the actual article so we can actually discuss what they said....

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

Actually, 7 of the 10 states with the highest suicide rates also have the most lax gun laws:

10 U.S. States With the Highest and Lowest Suicide Rates

And since you're suddenly interested in Hungary, Belgium, Finland, France, et al, why don't you check out the gun control laws in those countries, along with the gun death rates.

Finally, please cite the law in Japan that allows criminals to have guns. LOL

Notice those states......they have bigger issues than guns for suicide.......lot's of loneliness, aclohol and drug use....and hanging is the most popular method of suicide around the world...in Japan....trains and tall buildings...


The law doesn't....that is the whole point...they get them anyway even in Japan..........

Guns have been proven to make suicide attempts more often successful, and also more tempting. This isn't really a controversial point. A death is a death.

You said suicide is an "intentional" act. Like homicide isn't??

You just proved that countries with serious gun control have much lower gun death rates. Was that your intention?

No....they have higher suicide rates....and their gun death rates have to do with the thug culture.......most thug cultures around the world don't commit murder the way ours do......except for Russia and Mexico....they have extreme gun control and higher gun murder rates.....

In Japan...they use guns and grenades...I believe you would have to admit that both are illegal in Japan...even the grenades.....yet they still don't kill each other that much, they have an honor code......

The Great Japanese Gang Wars

In Southern Japan, the brutal pineapple season may finally be over; pineapple is yakuza slang for “hand grenade”—one of the many weapons utilized in a seven-year gang war between the Dojin-kai (1,000 members) and the splinter group the Kyushu Seido-kei (500 members). It’s a gang war in which there have been over 45 violent incidents, including bombings, shots exchanged during high-speed car chases, and 14 deaths. At least seven deaths, including one civilian's, were from gunfire; a phenomenally high figure when you consider the number of gun deaths for all of Japan in 2011 was eight people. (Japan has some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world.)

But.....I thought they didn't have machine guns in Japan.......

The Gangs That Couldn’t Shoot Straight

The Dojin-kai and the Seido-kai are Kyushu-based yakuza gangs, once part of the same faction founded in 1971 in Kurume, Fukuoka Prefecture, by Isoji Koga. When the second generation Dojin-kai boss Seijiro Matsuo retired in May 2006, there was a fight over succession, and the group split into two factions, sparking a bloody gang war—where escalation seemed a matter of course. It started with shootings and bombs being thrown, and before it ended, the two gangs were lobbing grenades and Molotov cocktails, shooting machine guns, and sometimes attacking their own men. Things really escalated in in August 2007, when a shooter from the Seido-kai assassinated the head of the Dojin-kai.

There have also been civilian casualties.

On November 8, 2007, a 61-year-old Dojin-kai-affiliated gang member shot a civilian by mistake at a hospital in Takeo, Saga Prefecture. The gangster later admitted he thought that the target was associated with the enemy, but the victim had no ties with gangs. He was just a 34-year-old metalwork-factory owner.

Normally, hospitals, wedding halls, and even funeral halls (no irony intended) are considered dishonorable places to wage gang wars. One of the reasons being that the risk of civilian causalities is too high.


When did gang bangers in Chicago worry about civilian causalties? That is a difference in thug culture.....that is what determines the gun murder rate...since obviously these criminals get machine guns and grenades...even in Japan......

 

[GaryDog]

Please explain why suicide doesn't count.

Suicide doesn't count because 1) it is an intentional act 2) it can be done without a gun....

Japan, South Korea, And China only allow criminals and police to have guns....and their suicide rates are higher than ours.....

Also......a lot of European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do and they have extreme gun control.......France, Poland and others.....

And here we have European countries with higher suicide rates than we do...and they have extreme gun control...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

And another list....
Here Are The Countries With The Worst Suicide Rates

Actually, 7 of the 10 states with the highest suicide rates also have the most lax gun laws:

10 U.S. States With the Highest and Lowest Suicide Rates

And since you're suddenly interested in Hungary, Belgium, Finland, France, et al, why don't you check out the gun control laws in those countries, along with the gun death rates.

Finally, please cite the law in Japan that allows criminals to have guns. LOL

Notice those states......they have bigger issues than guns for suicide.......lot's of loneliness, aclohol and drug use....and hanging is the most popular method of suicide around the world...in Japan....trains and tall buildings...


The law doesn't....that is the whole point...they get them anyway even in Japan..........

Guns have been proven to make suicide attempts more often successful, and also more tempting. This isn't really a controversial point. A death is a death.

You said suicide is an "intentional" act. Like homicide isn't??

You just proved that countries with serious gun control have much lower gun death rates. Was that your intention?

No....they have higher suicide rates....and their gun death rates have to do with the thug culture.......most thug cultures around the world don't commit murder the way ours do......except for Russia and Mexico....they have extreme gun control and higher gun murder rates.....

In Japan...they use guns and grenades...I believe you would have to admit that both are illegal in Japan...even the grenades.....yet they still don't kill each other that much, they have an honor code......

The Great Japanese Gang Wars

In Southern Japan, the brutal pineapple season may finally be over; pineapple is yakuza slang for “hand grenade”—one of the many weapons utilized in a seven-year gang war between the Dojin-kai (1,000 members) and the splinter group the Kyushu Seido-kei (500 members). It’s a gang war in which there have been over 45 violent incidents, including bombings, shots exchanged during high-speed car chases, and 14 deaths. At least seven deaths, including one civilian's, were from gunfire; a phenomenally high figure when you consider the number of gun deaths for all of Japan in 2011 was eight people. (Japan has some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world.)

But.....I thought they didn't have machine guns in Japan.......

The Gangs That Couldn’t Shoot Straight

The Dojin-kai and the Seido-kai are Kyushu-based yakuza gangs, once part of the same faction founded in 1971 in Kurume, Fukuoka Prefecture, by Isoji Koga. When the second generation Dojin-kai boss Seijiro Matsuo retired in May 2006, there was a fight over succession, and the group split into two factions, sparking a bloody gang war—where escalation seemed a matter of course. It started with shootings and bombs being thrown, and before it ended, the two gangs were lobbing grenades and Molotov cocktails, shooting machine guns, and sometimes attacking their own men. Things really escalated in in August 2007, when a shooter from the Seido-kai assassinated the head of the Dojin-kai.

There have also been civilian casualties.

On November 8, 2007, a 61-year-old Dojin-kai-affiliated gang member shot a civilian by mistake at a hospital in Takeo, Saga Prefecture. The gangster later admitted he thought that the target was associated with the enemy, but the victim had no ties with gangs. He was just a 34-year-old metalwork-factory owner.

Normally, hospitals, wedding halls, and even funeral halls (no irony intended) are considered dishonorable places to wage gang wars. One of the reasons being that the risk of civilian causalities is too high.


When did gang bangers in Chicago worry about civilian causalties? That is a difference in thug culture.....that is what determines the gun murder rate...since obviously these criminals get machine guns and grenades...even in Japan......

Right, it's Japanese culture, and not the fact that Japan has a tiny fraction of the gun ownership rate we do:

How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths

But what about the country at the other end of the spectrum? What is the role of guns in Japan, the developed world's least firearm-filled nation and perhaps its strictest controller? In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally.

Almost no one in Japan owns a gun. Most kinds are illegal, with onerous restrictions on buying and maintaining the few that are allowed. Even the country's infamous, mafia-like Yakuza tend to forgo guns; the few exceptionstend to become big national news stories.

 

[320 Years of History]

Guns have been proven to make suicide attempts more often successful, and also more tempting. This isn't really a controversial point. A death is a death.

You said suicide is an "intentional" act. Like homicide isn't??

Yes. The focal factor in evaluating homicide and suicide is not the intent; it's the target.