Annexing West Bank

[Indeependent]

I ask questions that DO NOT get answered.

How many Arab settlements have been created in Area C?

I have been deliberately ignoring the question because you have (falsely, and with bias) set up the question to be nonsensical. Because, by your old definition, only Israelis can be settlers.

It is not nonsensical in the least, it is just uncomfortable.

How many Israeli Jewish settlements have been created?

How many Israeli Arab settlements?

Did you know Israel is a Jewish state. That might answer your question.

Coyote is obviously referencing Arab sites because she’s ignoring jeverything that happened since 1948.

 

[Shusha]

How many Israeli Jewish settlements have been created?

How many Israeli Arab settlements?

That depends entirely on your definition of "settlements" By your new definition, anyone who was not a resident in 1948 (and their descendants) is an illegal settler.

By your new definition, Israelis have every right to set up a village in the place of their old farmlands. And to live in the Jewish Quarter.

We would have to reexamine the entire idea. No one has this information.

 

[Shusha]

Jordan however annexed it and gave full citizenship rights to the Palestinians there. Did they have a program of settlement building in the area?

So who else occupied it?

So wait, what?!

You don't have a problem with Jordan (a FOREIGN STATE with no rights to the territory) ANNEXES territory which does not belong to it?! But you have a problem with Israel?! (Who actually has full legal rights to that territory?!) What?!

Jordan expelled every single Jew. Claimed all of the property belonging to Jews. Destroyed nearly every synagogue. ERASED the Jewish people in that place. They then took over the territory and applied Jordanian sovereignty to territory which was OUTSIDE its legal sovereignty. Then they gave away *I don't even know how many dunams of land* to Arabs, creating the entire system of "but its my land, its been in my family for generations" that haunts Area C today.

If you are okay with mass expulsion and annexing of territory that does not belong to you then just let Israel do it. Sheesh.

 

[Indeependent]

Jordan however annexed it and gave full citizenship rights to the Palestinians there. Did they have a program of settlement building in the area?

So who else occupied it?

So wait, what?!

You don't have a problem with Jordan (a FOREIGN STATE with no rights to the territory) ANNEXES territory which does not belong to it?! But you have a problem with Israel?! (Who actually has full legal rights to that territory?!) What?!

Jordan expelled every single Jew. Claimed all of the property belonging to Jews. Destroyed nearly every synagogue. ERASED the Jewish people in that place. They then took over the territory and applied Jordanian sovereignty to territory which was OUTSIDE its legal sovereignty. Then they gave away *I don't even know how many dunams of land* to Arabs, creating the entire system of "but its my land, its been in my family for generations" that haunts Area C today.

If you are okay with mass expulsion and annexing of territory that does not belong to you then just let Israel do it. Sheesh.

You are engaged in a discussion with someone using alternate universe facts.
The only reason she responds to you is because you are foolish enough to fall into the “compromise” trap.

 

[Coyote]

How many Israeli Jewish settlements have been created?

How many Israeli Arab settlements?

That depends entirely on your definition of "settlements" By your new definition, anyone who was not a resident in 1948 (and their descendants) is an illegal settler.

By your new definition, Israelis have every right to set up a village in the place of their old farmlands. And to live in the Jewish Quarter.

We would have to reexamine the entire idea. No one has this information.

You are distorting my definition by omitting points.

One thing that is distinct in the idea of settlements is that it is a government supported plan to support the building of new communities in order to alter demographics in an area claimed by another people. And that is a principle source of conflict. That is not unique to Israel either.

Jordan took, occupied and annexed the territory. Did Jordan initiate any programs of settlement building while it was occupied?

In the creation of settlements by Israel, how many settlers are actually those who had lived there from 1967? Or 1948? Or their children?

And why does Israel not allow it’s Arabs to build settlements in Area C?

 

[Shusha]

When did Jordan get back right to it’s West Bank that it lost in war?

When did Jordan EVER have rights to the West Bank? Oh, yeah. Never.

 

[Indeependent]

When did Jordan get back right to it’s West Bank that it lost in war?

When did Jordan EVER have rights to the West Bank? Oh, yeah. Never.

You are engaged in a discussion with a historical revisionist.
Don’t bother yourself.

 

[Shusha]

Jordan took, occupied and annexed the territory. Did Jordan initiate any programs of settlement building while it was occupied?

Not my point. My point was that you are okay with Jordan capturing territory in an aggressive war, expelling its residents based on ethnicity, occupying, then annexing?!

 

[Coyote]

Jordan however annexed it and gave full citizenship rights to the Palestinians there. Did they have a program of settlement building in the area?

So who else occupied it?

So wait, what?!

You don't have a problem with Jordan (a FOREIGN STATE with no rights to the territory) ANNEXES territory which does not belong to it?! But you have a problem with Israel?! (Who actually has full legal rights to that territory?!) What?!

Jordan expelled every single Jew. Claimed all of the property belonging to Jews. Destroyed nearly every synagogue. ERASED the Jewish people in that place. They then took over the territory and applied Jordanian sovereignty to territory which was OUTSIDE its legal sovereignty. Then they gave away *I don't even know how many dunams of land* to Arabs, creating the entire system of "but its my land, its been in my family for generations" that haunts Area C today.

If you are okay with mass expulsion and annexing of territory that does not belong to you then just let Israel do it. Sheesh.

No I am not alright with it, and wasn’t intending to imply it is acceptable. And frankly Israel hasn’t been any better in terms of land confiscations so let’s not go there.

I am not and have never been ok with mass expulsions!

Your point is taken, I have not really read that much about what Jordan did then.

Ok,so given that, then Jordan allowed Arabs to take Jewish property and that would qualify as settlements. Where does that leave us then?

 

[Coyote]

Jordan took, occupied and annexed the territory. Did Jordan initiate any programs of settlement building while it was occupied?

Not my point. My point was that you are okay with Jordan capturing territory in an aggressive war, expelling its residents based on ethnicity, occupying, then annexing?!

No.

Are you ok with Israel expelling residents based on ethnicity during war?

 

[Coyote]

.

When did Jordan get back right to it’s West Bank that it lost in war?

When did Jordan EVER have rights to the West Bank? Oh, yeah. Never.

I guess not. It was supposed be an Arab state from the partition.


West Bank - Wikipedia
In 1947, it was subsequently designated as part of a proposed Arab state by the United Nations (UN) partition plan for Palestine. The resolution recommended partition of the British Mandate into a Jewish State, an Arab State, and an internationally administered enclave of Jerusalem;[16] a broader region of the modern-day West Bank was assigned to the Arab State. The resolution designated the territory described as "the hill country of Samaria and Judea" (including what is now also known as the "West Bank") as part of the proposed Arab state, but following the 1948 Arab–Israeli War this area was captured by Transjordan (renamed Jordan two years after independence in 1946).

 

[Coyote]

Jordan however annexed it and gave full citizenship rights to the Palestinians there. Did they have a program of settlement building in the area?

So who else occupied it?

So wait, what?!

You don't have a problem with Jordan (a FOREIGN STATE with no rights to the territory) ANNEXES territory which does not belong to it?! But you have a problem with Israel?! (Who actually has full legal rights to that territory?!) What?!

Jordan expelled every single Jew. Claimed all of the property belonging to Jews. Destroyed nearly every synagogue. ERASED the Jewish people in that place. They then took over the territory and applied Jordanian sovereignty to territory which was OUTSIDE its legal sovereignty. Then they gave away *I don't even know how many dunams of land* to Arabs, creating the entire system of "but its my land, its been in my family for generations" that haunts Area C today.

If you are okay with mass expulsion and annexing of territory that does not belong to you then just let Israel do it. Sheesh.

You are engaged in a discussion with someone using alternate universe facts.
The only reason she responds to you is because you are foolish enough to fall into the “compromise” trap.

Actually it is because she and Rocco and maybe one or two others are the only ones who attempt discussion.

 

[Shusha]

Jordan however annexed it and gave full citizenship rights to the Palestinians there. Did they have a program of settlement building in the area?

So who else occupied it?

So wait, what?!

You don't have a problem with Jordan (a FOREIGN STATE with no rights to the territory) ANNEXES territory which does not belong to it?! But you have a problem with Israel?! (Who actually has full legal rights to that territory?!) What?!

Jordan expelled every single Jew. Claimed all of the property belonging to Jews. Destroyed nearly every synagogue. ERASED the Jewish people in that place. They then took over the territory and applied Jordanian sovereignty to territory which was OUTSIDE its legal sovereignty. Then they gave away *I don't even know how many dunams of land* to Arabs, creating the entire system of "but its my land, its been in my family for generations" that haunts Area C today.

If you are okay with mass expulsion and annexing of territory that does not belong to you then just let Israel do it. Sheesh.

You are engaged in a discussion with someone using alternate universe facts.
The only reason she responds to you is because you are foolish enough to fall into the “compromise” trap.

Actually it is because she and Rocco and maybe one or two others are the only ones who attempt discussion.

Ditto that.

 

[Shusha]

I guess not. It was supposed be an Arab state from the partition.

Well, no. It was SUPPOSED to be ONE Jewish State and ONE Arab State. That would be Israel and Jordan. Beyond that, there was NO authority, ever, at any time, which created a legal foundation for a THIRD State UNTIL the development of the distinct Arab Palestinian identity sometime in the 70s and 80s.

But even if there was supposed to be THREE States created, instead of the two, STILL, Jordan has no right to territory outside its international boundaries and therefore had no right to other territory, whether it was intended for a Jewish state (which it was) or for another Arab state (which it wasn't).

Its really, really important to address this incorrect information. The Partition Plan(s) were suggestions, but in no way legally binding.

 

[Shusha]

Jordan took, occupied and annexed the territory. Did Jordan initiate any programs of settlement building while it was occupied?

Not my point. My point was that you are okay with Jordan capturing territory in an aggressive war, expelling its residents based on ethnicity, occupying, then annexing?!

No.

Are you ok with Israel expelling residents based on ethnicity during war?

In principle, no. Practically, at the time, shrug, it was the norm. And, if you are talking 1948, not all of it was "based on ethnicity". Alot of it is based on military strategy. You empty a village of the enemy if the location is of strategic importance. And both sides will try to capture territory as necessary. Is it ugly? Yeah, of course it is. No question.

BUT, again, that ugliness happened to MILLIONS of people during and post WWII. The crazy part is that only Israel is being still villified for acting upon what was normal for the time. And only Israel is being asked to retroactively "correct" the situation. It reeks of special rules for Israel.

So, I don't support the immoral principle. BUT I also recognize that conflict between ethnic groups usually results in peace when the two groups are separated by healthy borders and mutual respect.

 

[Billo_Really]

On Saturday, Netanyahu said he would annex the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, as they are known in the Bible) to Israel if he would be re-elected Prime Minister on Tuesday. Do y'all think that this is a good idea?

I think Netanfuckyou is a modern day Hitler.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Nationality is hereditary.

Absolutely untrue. Nationality is determined by the laws of the nation offering nationality and citizenship and governed solely by that nation.

Not so. Nationality is determined by international law. citizenship is determined by domestic law but must conform with international law.

 

[Shusha]

Nationality is hereditary.

Absolutely untrue. Nationality is determined by the laws of the nation offering nationality and citizenship and governed solely by that nation.

Not so. Nationality is determined by international law. citizenship is determined by domestic law but must conform with international law.

Show me the international law which says that nationality is hereditary. As opposed to determined by the domestic laws of each individual State.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Should we encourage Jews to leave too? Voluntarily?

By placing restrictions on where Jews are permitted to live, you already are.

Where are Jews restricted within the state of Israel?

How many Arab settlements have been built in Area C?

Not allowing foreign nationals to move into a disputed area is not encouraging them to leave.

Well, yes, you are asking the same questions you asked before. I've written several posts asking for clarifications of what constitutes an "Arab settlement" and "foreign national". You have refused to address my requests. We are at an impasse until you address my questions.

Who are the "settlers" in the Jewish quarter? Jews or Arabs?

Who is a "foreigner" in disputed lands?

There is no dispute.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Maybe this is true. Maybe not.

(COMMENT)

There was not that much difference in time between the mass internment of Japanese Americans (1942-1946) during World War II. → Then, the mass displacement of various inhabitants in Palestine (1947 - 1949). Neither of which came even close to the 12 to 16 Million displaced during the 1947 Partition of India and Pakistan.

There is a world of difference when discussing morals and ethics in the academic and hypothetical → and then when it comes down to the experience of the real thing.

What many people think is "unthinkable" today -- is just the way things were done (normal) in that era.

Most Respectfully,
R

And its viewed as normal. Everywhere but Israel. Where is the demand for right of return in India and Pakistan?

Agree. Also there are refugees in refugee camps all over....and...silence.

I think you missed my point.

What was it then?

That historically in significant conflicts and war between two distinct ethnic groups population exchange was accepted as normal. The sole exception is Israel. Israel still carries a demonization for the population exchange which does not exist in any other instance. Such as India/Pakistan.

There was no population exchange.