Americans Acting Like Americans Again

[daveman]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

 

[loosecannon]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

It isn't. There are no American made autos, even Boeing makes most of the dreamliner overseas. We don't even have the capacity to make our shit here anymore.

But there is such a thing as a Chinese made auto. And an Indian made auto. What about Kia? Are they made in Korea? Ah they just started manufacturing in GA in 2009.

 

[hortysir]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

The car salesman, the car lot owner, service department workers, county taxes, etc....

 

[DaGoose]

But is it really an American car?

Today, some 75 years since the Model T made Ford a global monolith, the lines between domestic and foreign automakers are so blurred as to be virtually indistinguishable. A global GM is importing an Australian Holden model (the basis for the Pontiac G8) and a German Opel model (the basis for the Saturn Aura). Meanwhile, we have the omnipotent Toyota producing trucks in both Texas and Indiana, Honda with a vast presence in Ohio and Ontario, Canada and the Koreans opening plants in both Alabama (Hyundai) and Georgia (Kia, in 2009).

Adding to the mix (and confusion) is how U.S. consumers define "American." Following the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), both Canada and Mexico have grown in importance to the U.S. marketplace. Detroit's presence in Canada is well established (and precedes NAFTA), but the free trade agreement opened a wave of investment south of our border; much of that production is directed back to the U.S. and Canada.

For example, Chrysler's retro PT Cruiser may recall American cars of the prewar era, but it's produced at a Chrysler plant in Toluca, Mexico. And according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA), only 35 percent of the PT Cruiser's content is sourced in the U.S. or Canada. The "American" Ford Fusion contains just 30-percent U.S./Canadian content, whereas the competing "Japanese" Honda Accord contains 70 percent, Nissan Altima 65 percent and Toyota Camry 80 percent.

Conversely, the all-new Toyota Tundra (engineered in the U.S. and produced at Toyota's newest manufacturing facility in San Antonio, Texas) is as wholly American as any Japanese vehicle has been to date. In conjunction with the Tundra's rollout is an intensified marketing campaign to paint Toyota as a wholly American company. The campaign includes macho TV ads whose gruff-voiced narrator sounds as if he just walked off the cattle farm. And it's reinforced by Toyota dealers throughout the country, including one in North Texas that hung its Tundra from a crane, draped with a "Made in America" banner.​

Your "American-made" car may be employing more non-Americans than Americans. Is your goal the employment of Americans, or the employment of union members?

"The Good Word: Real patriotism - Buying a quality new American made car...."

"By buying a Big Three car, Americans would be making the clearest statement they can of their faith in our nation’s private enterprise system, our workers, and our economic future. That’s not a Democratic or Republican idea, that’s a “baseball, hot dogs, apple pie” American idea."

The Good Word: Real patriotism - Buying a quality new American made car - Opinion - Press and Guide

Got it. You don't give a damn about supporting non-union Americans; you just want union members employed.

Did it ever occur to you that the unions are the reason so many Big 3 automobiles are made overseas?

No. It probably didn't.

If you could get past your blind hatred of American workers that happen to belong to unions you would know that many of the supporting industries are non-union.

And if, like YOU say, "so many of the Big 3 cars are made overseas" then the UAW wages and benefits would have very little impact on the building costs. Right?

So which is it? Little impact because SO MANY are made overseas? Or big impact due to wages and bennies?

 

[daveman]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

It isn't. There are no American made autos, even Boeing makes most of the dreamliner overseas. We don't even have the capacity to make our shit here anymore.

But there is such a thing as a Chinese made auto. And an Indian made auto. What about Kia? Are they made in Korea? Ah they just started manufacturing in GA in 2009.

So if you buy a Kia made in GA, you're supporting American workers.

 

[daveman]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

The car salesman, the car lot owner, service department workers, county taxes, etc....

Buying any car, regardless of the brand, supports those same people.

 

[daveman]

If you could get past your blind hatred of American workers that happen to belong to unions...

No blind hatred here -- just clear recognition that your "truth" has little bearing on reality.

...you would know that many of the supporting industries are non-union.

And I've never suggested otherwise, have I? Be honest, if you're capable.

And if, like YOU say, "so many of the Big 3 cars are made overseas" then the UAW wages and benefits would have very little impact on the building costs. Right?

So which is it? Little impact because SO MANY are made overseas? Or big impact due to wages and bennies?

Gosh, you're not bright. The Big 3 moved operations offshore BECAUSE the unions made it cheaper to build elsewhere. Moron.

 

[hortysir]

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

The car salesman, the car lot owner, service department workers, county taxes, etc....

Buying any car, regardless of the brand, supports those same people.

Just answering the question, bro'

 

[DaGoose]

If you could get past your blind hatred of American workers that happen to belong to unions...

No blind hatred here -- just clear recognition that your "truth" has little bearing on reality.

...you would know that many of the supporting industries are non-union.

And I've never suggested otherwise, have I? Be honest, if you're capable.

And if, like YOU say, "so many of the Big 3 cars are made overseas" then the UAW wages and benefits would have very little impact on the building costs. Right?

So which is it? Little impact because SO MANY are made overseas? Or big impact due to wages and bennies?

Gosh, you're not bright. The Big 3 moved operations offshore BECAUSE the unions made it cheaper to build elsewhere. Moron.

Now why did you resort to name calling?

So if you're willing let's explore some of your contentions. Please expand on the following (if you can or dare)

1) You claimed that the UAW makes building cars in the US too expensive, but Toyota pays similar wages and benefits so wouldn't the same rule apply to them?

2) If the Big 3 are building all these cars overseas as you claim then the UAW would have little impact on the costs, right?

3) Can you tell me any non-union industry in the US that can compete with overseas or Mexican labor costs?

I'll be waiting for your answers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Don't really sweat it. Daveman is not big on facts that refute his silly reactionary philosophies.

 

[asterism]

"The Good Word: Real patriotism - Buying a quality new American made car...."

"By buying a Big Three car, Americans would be making the clearest statement they can of their faith in our nation’s private enterprise system, our workers, and our economic future. That’s not a Democratic or Republican idea, that’s a “baseball, hot dogs, apple pie” American idea."

The Good Word: Real patriotism - Buying a quality new American made car - Opinion - Press and Guide

Is it really patriotic to buy an expensive substandard product subsidized by government cronyism? Seems to be rewarding failure and irresponsibly allowing them to be less competitive to me, and that is what caused the whole GM debacle in the first place.

Yes it is more patriotic. But it also makes good economic sense when American cars are every bit as good (and in a lot of cases better) as Japanese (yes, they are), employ more Americans (directly and through supporting industries) and pay more taxes to the US treasury.

What's the American equivalent in value and quality to the BMW X5 built in South Carolina?

 

[daveman]

The car salesman, the car lot owner, service department workers, county taxes, etc....

Buying any car, regardless of the brand, supports those same people.

Just answering the question, bro'

So, it looks like no matter what brand you buy, almost the same number of people benefit...unless you buy an American-branded car that's made mostly overseas.

 

[asterism]

...and if you own American and thus support all of us and America...

I've shown that not to be the case. How is buying a Ford Fusion, 70% of which is made somewhere besides the North American continent, supporting "all of us and America"?

The car salesman, the car lot owner, service department workers, county taxes, etc....

Any car foreign or domestic sold in the US serves the same function.

 

[daveman]

If you could get past your blind hatred of American workers that happen to belong to unions...

No blind hatred here -- just clear recognition that your "truth" has little bearing on reality.

And I've never suggested otherwise, have I? Be honest, if you're capable.

And if, like YOU say, "so many of the Big 3 cars are made overseas" then the UAW wages and benefits would have very little impact on the building costs. Right?

So which is it? Little impact because SO MANY are made overseas? Or big impact due to wages and bennies?

Gosh, you're not bright. The Big 3 moved operations offshore BECAUSE the unions made it cheaper to build elsewhere. Moron.

Now why did you resort to name calling?

You shouldn't be confused.

So if you're willing let's explore some of your contentions. Please expand on the following (if you can or dare)

If I dare? What, you think you're all scary on the internet?

1) You claimed that the UAW makes building cars in the US too expensive, but Toyota pays similar wages and benefits so wouldn't the same rule apply to them?

It would if they employed the same number of people.

But they don't:

According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13.​

So labor costs for domestic cars are almost three times the cost of the foreign badges. Who's responsible for that?

Hint: The union.

2) If the Big 3 are building all these cars overseas as you claim then the UAW would have little impact on the costs, right?

See my answer to #1.

3) Can you tell me any non-union industry in the US that can compete with overseas or Mexican labor costs?

Well, there's the steel industr...oh, wait. The unions drove that offshore, too.

I'll be waiting for your answers.

You won't like them.

 

[DaGoose]

No blind hatred here -- just clear recognition that your "truth" has little bearing on reality.

And I've never suggested otherwise, have I? Be honest, if you're capable.

Gosh, you're not bright. The Big 3 moved operations offshore BECAUSE the unions made it cheaper to build elsewhere. Moron.

Now why did you resort to name calling?

You shouldn't be confused.

If I dare? What, you think you're all scary on the internet?

It would if they employed the same number of people.

But they don't:

According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13.​

So labor costs for domestic cars are almost three times the cost of the foreign badges. Who's responsible for that?

Hint: The union.

See my answer to #1.

3) Can you tell me any non-union industry in the US that can compete with overseas or Mexican labor costs?

Well, there's the steel industr...oh, wait. The unions drove that offshore, too.

I'll be waiting for your answers.

You won't like them.

So you resort to name calling when someone challenges your supposed facts? Got it!!

1) Did you bother to read your own link?

Despite massive investments by Honda and Toyota, the Japanese companies still lag significantly behind the domestics in their total commitment to the American labor market. According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13. Despite the latest round of aggressive layoffs by domestic automakers, those numbers are projected to remain almost constant through 2010 due to changes in projected production output.

1) You stated that "

So labor costs for domestic cars are almost three times the cost of the foreign badges. Who's responsible for that?[/QUOTE

It doesn't actually say what you think it says, does it? (C'mon, be honest) Nice try but no cigar. Even if it was true YOU said that "The Big 3 moved operations offshore" so what would that say about using foreign labor?

2) So do they or do they not "employ the same number of people" to make a car? Even if it was different buying domestic is still cheaper than foreign. AND domestic is just as reliable (if not more reliable).

3) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What, in your opinion, should we do to compete with $2.00 an hour labor with Mexico? Remember, we're talking ALL labor here, union included.

 

[daveman]

So you resort to name calling when someone challenges your supposed facts? Got it!!

1) Did you bother to read your own link?

Despite massive investments by Honda and Toyota, the Japanese companies still lag significantly behind the domestics in their total commitment to the American labor market. According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13. Despite the latest round of aggressive layoffs by domestic automakers, those numbers are projected to remain almost constant through 2010 due to changes in projected production output.

1) You stated that "

So labor costs for domestic cars are almost three times the cost of the foreign badges. Who's responsible for that?

It doesn't actually say what you think it says, does it? (C'mon, be honest) Nice try but no cigar. Even if it was true YOU said that "The Big 3 moved operations offshore" so what would that say about using foreign labor?

2) So do they or do they not "employ the same number of people" to make a car? Even if it was different buying domestic is still cheaper than foreign. AND domestic is just as reliable (if not more reliable).

3) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What, in your opinion, should we do to compete with $2.00 an hour labor with Mexico? Remember, we're talking ALL labor here, union included.

I told you you wouldn't like the answers.

The big thing to do to get companies to move operations back to America is get the damn government out of the way. Stop punishing businesses for being successful.

And no, I'm not advocating dirty air and water, so nobody needs to bring up that retardery.

 

[DaGoose]

So you resort to name calling when someone challenges your supposed facts? Got it!!

1) Did you bother to read your own link?

Despite massive investments by Honda and Toyota, the Japanese companies still lag significantly behind the domestics in their total commitment to the American labor market. According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13. Despite the latest round of aggressive layoffs by domestic automakers, those numbers are projected to remain almost constant through 2010 due to changes in projected production output.

1) You stated that "

So labor costs for domestic cars are almost three times the cost of the foreign badges. Who's responsible for that?

It doesn't actually say what you think it says, does it? (C'mon, be honest) Nice try but no cigar. Even if it was true YOU said that "The Big 3 moved operations offshore" so what would that say about using foreign labor?

2) So do they or do they not "employ the same number of people" to make a car? Even if it was different buying domestic is still cheaper than foreign. AND domestic is just as reliable (if not more reliable).

3) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What, in your opinion, should we do to compete with $2.00 an hour labor with Mexico? Remember, we're talking ALL labor here, union included.

I told you you wouldn't like the answers.

The big thing to do to get companies to move operations back to America is get the damn government out of the way. Stop punishing businesses for being successful.

And no, I'm not advocating dirty air and water, so nobody needs to bring up that retardery.

The only reason I don't like your answers is because they weren't answers at all.

Nobody said you were advocating dirty air and water.

I'm trying to get your opinion on what needs to be done to compete with $2.00 per hour Mexican labor and how the UAW is at fault if we don't?

 

[daveman]

So you resort to name calling when someone challenges your supposed facts? Got it!!

1) Did you bother to read your own link?

Despite massive investments by Honda and Toyota, the Japanese companies still lag significantly behind the domestics in their total commitment to the American labor market. According to the survey, domestic automakers currently employ 35 U.S. employees for every 1,000 vehicles sold, whereas foreign automakers employ only 13. Despite the latest round of aggressive layoffs by domestic automakers, those numbers are projected to remain almost constant through 2010 due to changes in projected production output.

1) You stated that "

It doesn't actually say what you think it says, does it? (C'mon, be honest) Nice try but no cigar. Even if it was true YOU said that "The Big 3 moved operations offshore" so what would that say about using foreign labor?

2) So do they or do they not "employ the same number of people" to make a car? Even if it was different buying domestic is still cheaper than foreign. AND domestic is just as reliable (if not more reliable).

3) IMPORTANT QUESTION: What, in your opinion, should we do to compete with $2.00 an hour labor with Mexico? Remember, we're talking ALL labor here, union included.

I told you you wouldn't like the answers.

The big thing to do to get companies to move operations back to America is get the damn government out of the way. Stop punishing businesses for being successful.

And no, I'm not advocating dirty air and water, so nobody needs to bring up that retardery.

The only reason I don't like your answers is because they weren't answers at all.

Nobody said you were advocating dirty air and water.

I'm trying to get your opinion on what needs to be done to compete with $2.00 per hour Mexican labor and how the UAW is at fault if we don't?

That you don't like them doesn't mean they weren't answers. It just means you don't like them.

And yes, whenever a conservative says government needs to get out of the way of business, some moron lefty comes along and says the conservative wants dirty air and water. It's just a matter of time.

 

[DaGoose]

I told you you wouldn't like the answers.

The big thing to do to get companies to move operations back to America is get the damn government out of the way. Stop punishing businesses for being successful.

And no, I'm not advocating dirty air and water, so nobody needs to bring up that retardery.

The only reason I don't like your answers is because they weren't answers at all.

Nobody said you were advocating dirty air and water.

I'm trying to get your opinion on what needs to be done to compete with $2.00 per hour Mexican labor and how the UAW is at fault if we don't?

That you don't like them doesn't mean they weren't answers. It just means you don't like them.

And yes, whenever a conservative says government needs to get out of the way of business, some moron lefty comes along and says the conservative wants dirty air and water. It's just a matter of time.

C'mon now. Stop trying to deflect. I know you can answer the questions if you try.....

What needs to be done to compete with $2.00 per hour Mexican labor? And exactly how do Unions prevent us from competing?

Can you tell me any non-union industry in the US that can compete with overseas or Mexican labor costs?

 

[editec]

Do you guys realize that CHINA is now the world's leading auto maker?

Yeah I admit it came as surprise to me, too.