Debate Now America is no longer a Republic. Partisan bickering is how we lost it.

[Foxfyre]

In my opinion, and I would hope most agree, in America we do not have a free market.
For instance, I have been to Mexico three times. In even the larger/nice cities the streets are filled with street vendors selling food and goods. At night you can get some pretty damn good food cooked by people living in the area that simply set up an area and start cooking. You can judge for yourself if the food is clean/cooking area is clean because it is cooked right in front of you.
In the mornings, many people do not fix breakfast at home. They simply walk outside and throughout neighborhoods there are fresh fruit vendors and people selling some mean Huevos rancheros or breakfast tacos etc. As well as different people selling items they make at home.
Try to do that in your neighborhood.

Throughout the world this is a common practice and way for many people to earn xtra cash.
There are many other examples such as this.
In America markets are protected. The governments invents looong lists of regulations and requirements that greatly increase the cost of startups - and completely kills the chance of a person doing something just to earn extra money all to protect corporate interest and markets.

You're right of course. I do have no problem whatsoever with the government regulating aspects of the food supply, most especially in prohibiting known toxins and requiring labeling of foods transported across borders and state lines so that the people will have information they could not practically get for themselves. But that is where government involvement should end. People are smart enough to know the risks of buying from all manner of vendors and a free people can choose whether or not to assume those risks.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

In my opinion, and I would hope most agree, in America we do not have a free market.
For instance, I have been to Mexico three times. In even the larger/nice cities the streets are filled with street vendors selling food and goods. At night you can get some pretty damn good food cooked by people living in the area that simply set up an area and start cooking. You can judge for yourself if the food is clean/cooking area is clean because it is cooked right in front of you.
In the mornings, many people do not fix breakfast at home. They simply walk outside and throughout neighborhoods there are fresh fruit vendors and people selling some mean Huevos rancheros or breakfast tacos etc. As well as different people selling items they make at home.
Try to do that in your neighborhood.

Throughout the world this is a common practice and way for many people to earn xtra cash.
There are many other examples such as this.
In America markets are protected. The governments invents looong lists of regulations and requirements that greatly increase the cost of startups - and completely kills the chance of a person doing something just to earn extra money all to protect corporate interest and markets.

You're right of course. I do have no problem whatsoever with the government regulating aspects of the food supply, most especially in prohibiting known toxins and requiring labeling of foods transported across borders and state lines so that the people will have information they could not practically get for themselves. But that is where government involvement should end. People are smart enough to know the risks of buying from all manner of vendors and a free people can choose whether or not to assume those risks.

Ahh...but foodborne illnesses has increased dramatically in America in the past 50-60 years. Food was safer BEFORE government regulations and the corporate takeover of our Agriculture.
Did you know that, as a percentage of population, that modern countries actually have higher foodborn illnesses than many 3rd world countries? Now what makes you think that is possible?
Go ahead and do a little research on your own, you will find the virtually every single outbreak of food related illnesses in America are the result of contamination in a factory or processing plant.
Food purchased at a Farmers market, local meats etc. are far-far-far safer/cleaner and nutritionally superior than corporate frankenfood.

 

[Foxfyre]

In my opinion, and I would hope most agree, in America we do not have a free market.
For instance, I have been to Mexico three times. In even the larger/nice cities the streets are filled with street vendors selling food and goods. At night you can get some pretty damn good food cooked by people living in the area that simply set up an area and start cooking. You can judge for yourself if the food is clean/cooking area is clean because it is cooked right in front of you.
In the mornings, many people do not fix breakfast at home. They simply walk outside and throughout neighborhoods there are fresh fruit vendors and people selling some mean Huevos rancheros or breakfast tacos etc. As well as different people selling items they make at home.
Try to do that in your neighborhood.

Throughout the world this is a common practice and way for many people to earn xtra cash.
There are many other examples such as this.
In America markets are protected. The governments invents looong lists of regulations and requirements that greatly increase the cost of startups - and completely kills the chance of a person doing something just to earn extra money all to protect corporate interest and markets.

You're right of course. I do have no problem whatsoever with the government regulating aspects of the food supply, most especially in prohibiting known toxins and requiring labeling of foods transported across borders and state lines so that the people will have information they could not practically get for themselves. But that is where government involvement should end. People are smart enough to know the risks of buying from all manner of vendors and a free people can choose whether or not to assume those risks.

Ahh...but foodborne illnesses has increased dramatically in America in the past 50-60 years. Food was safer BEFORE government regulations and the corporate takeover of our Agriculture.
Did you know that, as a percentage of population, that modern countries actually have higher foodborn illnesses than many 3rd world countries? Now what makes you think that is possible?
Go ahead and do a little research on your own, you will find the virtually every single outbreak of food related illnesses in America are the result of contamination in a factory or processing plant.
Food purchased at a Farmers market, local meats etc. are far-far-far safer/cleaner and nutritionally superior than corporate frankenfood.

No argument there but then that isn't what I was arguing. It IS a valid role of the federal government to prevent introduction of mad cow disease into our food supply for instance. Two or three years ago there were thousands of cases of salmonella resulting from infected cantalope coming in from Mexico--that also is a valid role of the federal government to intervene, identify the source of contamination, and prevent it from entering our food supply.

I LIKE having the labels of contents on food packaging. It adds very little cost to the producer and gives us means to know whether we want to buy the product or not. It is a stretch whether that should be a role for the federal government but since almost all manufacturers sell across state lines, it is simpler for the feds to do it than each individual state. Food products produced and sold within a single state should not be a federal concern however.

As for processed foods, I long for the day when people will rise up and refuse to buy them. And then maybe we will revert back to real food.

 

[Shrimpbox]

Most of this thread is worthy but some claims are not valid. Unions are as much at fault for America losing manufacturing as corporations. They broke gm with their greed as well as corrupted American politics

The national debt has nothing to do with capitalism, it has to do with govt spending whether it be war or welfare. The more pure capitalism we had the less govt debt we had.

You all talk about how bad,it is then you turn around and give many examples,of people trying to change things, disruptive technology and farmers markets. America lets that kind of thing happen.

Now where I would agree with the op is that business, all businesses, have gained too much of a monopolistic character. When that happens you do not have a capitalist system you have no choice and they can charge what they want which is what they are doing now. Just take the food supply companies, the syscos and such. They have bought out all the smaller companies for big bucks and now have it all to themselves. Govt regs and cheap money aggravate these problems. Small banks are being eliminated by govt regs, so,small communities are not being served. I have to love the posters who want to talk about govt complicity with business and regulations and never bring up exhibit A, obamacare.

Some of the actions I would take are these. Micro lending. I would do everything I could to shackle and tax to death the hedge fund industry. Any financial dealings that have the capacity to bring down our economy will be severely handicapped. Flat tax. Make all economic decisions based on whether they will strengthen the middle class. More to come latter..........

 

[Foxfyre]

Most of this thread is worthy but some claims are not valid. Unions are as much at fault for America losing manufacturing as corporations. They broke gm with their greed as well as corrupted American politics

The national debt has nothing to do with capitalism, it has to do with govt spending whether it be war or welfare. The more pure capitalism we had the less govt debt we had.

You all talk about how bad,it is then you turn around and give many examples,of people trying to change things, disruptive technology and farmers markets. America lets that kind of thing happen.

Now where I would agree with the op is that business, all businesses, have gained too much of a monopolistic character. When that happens you do not have a capitalist system you have no choice and they can charge what they want which is what they are doing now. Just take the food supply companies, the syscos and such. They have bought out all the smaller companies for big bucks and now have it all to themselves. Govt regs and cheap money aggravate these problems. Small banks are being eliminated by govt regs, so,small communities are not being served. I have to love the posters who want to talk about govt complicity with business and regulations and never bring up exhibit A, obamacare.

Some of the actions I would take are these. Micro lending. I would do everything I could to shackle and tax to death the hedge fund industry. Any financial dealings that have the capacity to bring down our economy will be severely handicapped. Flat tax. Make all economic decisions based on whether they will strengthen the middle class. More to come latter..........

I have always contended, however, that it was government meddling with their rules and regulations that have resulted not only in costly consequences for American commerce and industry, but resulted in mountains of paper work that are much more difficult for the small operations to deal with than the big ones. So big business America has always supported more and more government inference and control because they can absorb those consequences, but their smaller competition cannot so easily do so.

So the Mom and Pop stores eventually give up and close up shop making room for ever more big box chain stores. And we all are the poorer for it.

 

[haissem123]

So who ever has the strongest or smartest army can take whatever resources and claim them as their own private enterprise? I think I see where that keeps getting us. Anything and everything sacred or not has been perverted by mankind. Don't ask me how we let ourselves get away with it. lol.

That isn't what I said or even vaguely implied though.

some people always take things to the extreme. I too cried for there were no more worlds to conquer. lol

Oh there are a lot of worlds to conquer yet. The problem is that those who do not understand and/or appreciate the basic concepts of liberty that were written into the original Constitution will never argue those concepts. They will continue to build straw man after straw man, engage in dishonest mischaracterization and non sequitur, and throw in a few red herrings for good measure to avoid discussing those concepts.

Once those concepts were discarded in favor of a return to totalitarianism and/or collectivism, then we lost our constitutional republic as the Founder intended it. And that provoked the OP that started this thread.

the concept of the many working for the benefit of a few is a failed concept. the concept that a few can be allowed to consolidate money/power and therefore controlling the world as modern day kings with their full courts pressing us all downward is long since been proven a bad and failed economic model and social structure. etc. etc..

In a free society, the many don't work for the benefit of the few. In a free society, each person works for his/her own benefit and in so doing benefits everybody else. Government is a far greater danger to intentionally in inadvertently restrict our ability to prosper than is the fact that some will become richer than others.

When one percent takes all the power then all democracy and freedom is lost under the rule of a few not called government but owners of men. I have no problem with the winners taking spoils but any society that allows a few to dictate the course of the many which is how it is now the many are doomed as it is now

 

[haissem123]

So who ever has the strongest or smartest army can take whatever resources and claim them as their own private enterprise? I think I see where that keeps getting us. Anything and everything sacred or not has been perverted by mankind. Don't ask me how we let ourselves get away with it. lol.

That isn't what I said or even vaguely implied though.

some people always take things to the extreme. I too cried for there were no more worlds to conquer. lol

Oh there are a lot of worlds to conquer yet. The problem is that those who do not understand and/or appreciate the basic concepts of liberty that were written into the original Constitution will never argue those concepts. They will continue to build straw man after straw man, engage in dishonest mischaracterization and non sequitur, and throw in a few red herrings for good measure to avoid discussing those concepts.

Once those concepts were discarded in favor of a return to totalitarianism and/or collectivism, then we lost our constitutional republic as the Founder intended it. And that provoked the OP that started this thread.

the concept of the many working for the benefit of a few is a failed concept. the concept that a few can be allowed to consolidate money/power and therefore controlling the world as modern day kings with their full courts pressing us all downward is long since been proven a bad and failed economic model and social structure. etc. etc..

In a free society, the many don't work for the benefit of the few. In a free society, each person works for his/her own benefit and in so doing benefits everybody else. Government is a far greater danger to intentionally in inadvertently restrict our ability to prosper than is the fact that some will become richer than others.

Keep telling yourself the many aren't working as the few sit fighting over whose the king of the world you may just convince others to believe this stupidity too

 

[Foxfyre]

That isn't what I said or even vaguely implied though.

some people always take things to the extreme. I too cried for there were no more worlds to conquer. lol

Oh there are a lot of worlds to conquer yet. The problem is that those who do not understand and/or appreciate the basic concepts of liberty that were written into the original Constitution will never argue those concepts. They will continue to build straw man after straw man, engage in dishonest mischaracterization and non sequitur, and throw in a few red herrings for good measure to avoid discussing those concepts.

Once those concepts were discarded in favor of a return to totalitarianism and/or collectivism, then we lost our constitutional republic as the Founder intended it. And that provoked the OP that started this thread.

the concept of the many working for the benefit of a few is a failed concept. the concept that a few can be allowed to consolidate money/power and therefore controlling the world as modern day kings with their full courts pressing us all downward is long since been proven a bad and failed economic model and social structure. etc. etc..

In a free society, the many don't work for the benefit of the few. In a free society, each person works for his/her own benefit and in so doing benefits everybody else. Government is a far greater danger to intentionally in inadvertently restrict our ability to prosper than is the fact that some will become richer than others.

When one percent takes all the power then all democracy and freedom is lost under the rule of a few not called government but owners of men. I have no problem with the winners taking spoils but any society that allows a few to dictate the course of the many which is how it is now the many are doomed as it is now

I don't know who you mean by the 1 percent. I have little or no problem with the 1 percenters so long as I technically have the liberty to become one of them. (Acknowledging that is highly unlikely to happen, but just because it won't happen for me doesn't make it impossible.) But the 1 percenters have provided opportunity for me while I can't think of a thing they have taken away from me.

I do have a huge problem with a too large, too bloated and ever growing, too complicated, too inefficient, too ineffective, and too expensive government absorbing more and more of the power and resources and making it much more difficult for the people to achieve what they otherwise could achieve.

 

[Foxfyre]

That isn't what I said or even vaguely implied though.

some people always take things to the extreme. I too cried for there were no more worlds to conquer. lol

Oh there are a lot of worlds to conquer yet. The problem is that those who do not understand and/or appreciate the basic concepts of liberty that were written into the original Constitution will never argue those concepts. They will continue to build straw man after straw man, engage in dishonest mischaracterization and non sequitur, and throw in a few red herrings for good measure to avoid discussing those concepts.

Once those concepts were discarded in favor of a return to totalitarianism and/or collectivism, then we lost our constitutional republic as the Founder intended it. And that provoked the OP that started this thread.

the concept of the many working for the benefit of a few is a failed concept. the concept that a few can be allowed to consolidate money/power and therefore controlling the world as modern day kings with their full courts pressing us all downward is long since been proven a bad and failed economic model and social structure. etc. etc..

In a free society, the many don't work for the benefit of the few. In a free society, each person works for his/her own benefit and in so doing benefits everybody else. Government is a far greater danger to intentionally in inadvertently restrict our ability to prosper than is the fact that some will become richer than others.

Keep telling yourself the many aren't working as the few sit fighting over whose the king of the world you may just convince others to believe this stupidity too

Since I didn't say that I don't have a clue what you mean by this.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nobody born after 1955-60 has any sense of what was the Republic like from 1900 to 1964.

You are all fooling yourselves. I am far closer to my grandfather's world of 1890 to 1970, than my son is to mine of 1950 to now much less before.

 

[thanatos144]

That isn't what I said or even vaguely implied though.

some people always take things to the extreme. I too cried for there were no more worlds to conquer. lol

Oh there are a lot of worlds to conquer yet. The problem is that those who do not understand and/or appreciate the basic concepts of liberty that were written into the original Constitution will never argue those concepts. They will continue to build straw man after straw man, engage in dishonest mischaracterization and non sequitur, and throw in a few red herrings for good measure to avoid discussing those concepts.

Once those concepts were discarded in favor of a return to totalitarianism and/or collectivism, then we lost our constitutional republic as the Founder intended it. And that provoked the OP that started this thread.

the concept of the many working for the benefit of a few is a failed concept. the concept that a few can be allowed to consolidate money/power and therefore controlling the world as modern day kings with their full courts pressing us all downward is long since been proven a bad and failed economic model and social structure. etc. etc..

In a free society, the many don't work for the benefit of the few. In a free society, each person works for his/her own benefit and in so doing benefits everybody else. Government is a far greater danger to intentionally in inadvertently restrict our ability to prosper than is the fact that some will become richer than others.

When one percent takes all the power then all democracy and freedom is lost under the rule of a few not called government but owners of men. I have no problem with the winners taking spoils but any society that allows a few to dictate the course of the many which is how it is now the many are doomed as it is now

It was democracy that gave all the elitist idiots power....As normal progressive refuse to understand it was them that gave over our country to corporate cronyism...Guess you idiot progressives shouldn't have passed the 16th amendment and kept the country a republic instead of turning it into a democracy.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

It was democracy that gave all the elitist idiots power....As normal progressive refuse to understand it was them that gave over our country to corporate cronyism...Guess you idiot progressives shouldn't have passed the 16th amendment and kept the country a republic instead of turning it into a democracy.

I'm sorry, are you under some impression that a single poster in this thread is a progressive??
I most certainly don't get that feeling.

 

[thanatos144]

It was democracy that gave all the elitist idiots power....As normal progressive refuse to understand it was them that gave over our country to corporate cronyism...Guess you idiot progressives shouldn't have passed the 16th amendment and kept the country a republic instead of turning it into a democracy.

I'm sorry, are you under some impression that a single poster in this thread is a progressive??
I most certainly don't get that feeling.

Yes I am.... More then one actually.