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All Those Growing Glaciers...
- Thread starter Sinatra
- Start date
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
*GASP*
How DARE energy producers acquire expert counsel and research, to keep hordes of commie hooligans from destroying their businesses!!
Oh, the scandal!!
How DARE energy producers acquire expert counsel and research, to keep hordes of commie hooligans from destroying their businesses!!
Oh, the scandal!!
Glacier National Park...
During the middle of the 20th century, examination of the maps and photographs from the previous century provided clear evidence that the 150 glaciers known to have existed in the park a hundred years earlier had greatly retreated, and in many cases disappeared altogether.[21] Repeat photography of the glaciers, such as the pictures taken of Grinnell Glacier between 1938 and 2005 as shown, help to provide visual confirmation of the extent of glacier retreat.
In the 1980s, the U.S. Geological Survey began a more systematic study of the remaining glaciers, which continues to the present day. By 2005, only 27 glaciers remained, and scientists generally agree that if the current global warming continues, all the glaciers in the park will be gone by 2030.[21] This glacier retreat follows a worldwide pattern that has accelerated even more since 1980. The extensive glacier retreat that has been observed in Glacier National Park, as well as in other regions worldwide, is a key indicator of climatic changes on a worldwide scale. Without a major climatic change in which cooler and moister weather returns and persists, the mass balance (accumulation rate versus melting rate) of glaciers will continue to be negative and the glaciers will eventually disappear, leaving behind only barren rock.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_National_Park_(U.S.)
During the middle of the 20th century, examination of the maps and photographs from the previous century provided clear evidence that the 150 glaciers known to have existed in the park a hundred years earlier had greatly retreated, and in many cases disappeared altogether.[21] Repeat photography of the glaciers, such as the pictures taken of Grinnell Glacier between 1938 and 2005 as shown, help to provide visual confirmation of the extent of glacier retreat.
In the 1980s, the U.S. Geological Survey began a more systematic study of the remaining glaciers, which continues to the present day. By 2005, only 27 glaciers remained, and scientists generally agree that if the current global warming continues, all the glaciers in the park will be gone by 2030.[21] This glacier retreat follows a worldwide pattern that has accelerated even more since 1980. The extensive glacier retreat that has been observed in Glacier National Park, as well as in other regions worldwide, is a key indicator of climatic changes on a worldwide scale. Without a major climatic change in which cooler and moister weather returns and persists, the mass balance (accumulation rate versus melting rate) of glaciers will continue to be negative and the glaciers will eventually disappear, leaving behind only barren rock.[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_National_Park_(U.S.)
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Melting glaciers in the Alps may prompt Italy and Switzerland to redraw their borders near the Matterhorn, according to parliamentary draft legislation being readied in Rome.
Glaciers in the Alps near the Matterhorn are receding, forcing the border to be redrawn.
Franco Narducci of Italy's opposition Democratic Party is preparing a bill to redefine the frontier with neighboring Switzerland, his office said Wednesday.
Narducci is a member of the foreign affairs panel in Italy's lower Chamber of Deputies. Foreign Minister Franco Frattini has authorized the bill.
Switzerland also has cooperated with Italy on the matter.
The Italian Military Geographic Institute says climate change is responsible for the Alpine glaciers melting.
"This draft law is born out the necessity to revise and verify the frontiers given the changes in climate and atmosphere," Narducci said. "The 1941 convention between Italy and Switzerland established as criteria [for border revisions] the ridge [crest] of the glaciers. Following the withdrawal of the glaciers in the Alps, a new criterion has been proposed so that the new border coincides with the rock."
Melting glaciers force Italy, Swiss to redraw border - CNN.com
Glaciers in the Alps near the Matterhorn are receding, forcing the border to be redrawn.
Franco Narducci of Italy's opposition Democratic Party is preparing a bill to redefine the frontier with neighboring Switzerland, his office said Wednesday.
Narducci is a member of the foreign affairs panel in Italy's lower Chamber of Deputies. Foreign Minister Franco Frattini has authorized the bill.
Switzerland also has cooperated with Italy on the matter.
The Italian Military Geographic Institute says climate change is responsible for the Alpine glaciers melting.
"This draft law is born out the necessity to revise and verify the frontiers given the changes in climate and atmosphere," Narducci said. "The 1941 convention between Italy and Switzerland established as criteria [for border revisions] the ridge [crest] of the glaciers. Following the withdrawal of the glaciers in the Alps, a new criterion has been proposed so that the new border coincides with the rock."
Melting glaciers force Italy, Swiss to redraw border - CNN.com
XINING, Feb. 4 (Xinhua) -- Chinese scientists said Wednesday glaciers that serve as water sources on the Qinghai-Tibet plateau are melting at a "worrisome speed," having receded 196 square km over the past nearly 40 years.
The decline is equal to about one-fourth of the area of New York City.
Xin Yuanhong, senior engineer in charge of a three-year field study of glaciers in the region, said glaciers at the headwaters of the Yangtze, China's longest river, cover 1,051 square km, down from 1,247 square km in 1971.
"The reduction means more than 989 million cubic meters of water melted away," said Xin, whose team surveyed the glaciers between June 2005 and August 2008. That much water would fill Beijing's largest reservoir.
The team was composed of experts from the Qinghai Provincial Geological Research Institute and the Beijing-based China University of Geosciences.
Melting glaciers on China's Qinghai-Tibet plateau water source "worrisome"_English_Xinhua
The decline is equal to about one-fourth of the area of New York City.
Xin Yuanhong, senior engineer in charge of a three-year field study of glaciers in the region, said glaciers at the headwaters of the Yangtze, China's longest river, cover 1,051 square km, down from 1,247 square km in 1971.
"The reduction means more than 989 million cubic meters of water melted away," said Xin, whose team surveyed the glaciers between June 2005 and August 2008. That much water would fill Beijing's largest reservoir.
The team was composed of experts from the Qinghai Provincial Geological Research Institute and the Beijing-based China University of Geosciences.
Melting glaciers on China's Qinghai-Tibet plateau water source "worrisome"_English_Xinhua
34 before and after photos from Glacier National Park....
http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/repeatphoto/Pairs/RepeatPhoto_pairs_Fullset_compr.pdf
http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/repeatphoto/Pairs/RepeatPhoto_pairs_Fullset_compr.pdf
Mt. Everest...
I was genuinely shocked by how far the glaciers have retreated. As we stood on the side of Lake Imja you could see the end of the glacier falling into the lake.
I just couldn't get over the power of the warming and the sheer force of Nature to change a landscape so dramatically.
You can talk of a o.1 degree rise in temperature here or a few millimetre rise in sea level and it seems tiny.
But when you see pictures of the Himalayas thirty years ago and then stand in that same landscape and see how different it is, it brings home just how fast and immense the change can be.
When you have seen the melting at Everest it's very hard to understand anyone who says warming is not happening.
Are they on the same planet?
Melting of Everest shows power of warming - Science and Health Blog - Mirror.co.uk
I was genuinely shocked by how far the glaciers have retreated. As we stood on the side of Lake Imja you could see the end of the glacier falling into the lake.
I just couldn't get over the power of the warming and the sheer force of Nature to change a landscape so dramatically.
You can talk of a o.1 degree rise in temperature here or a few millimetre rise in sea level and it seems tiny.
But when you see pictures of the Himalayas thirty years ago and then stand in that same landscape and see how different it is, it brings home just how fast and immense the change can be.
When you have seen the melting at Everest it's very hard to understand anyone who says warming is not happening.
Are they on the same planet?
Melting of Everest shows power of warming - Science and Health Blog - Mirror.co.uk
- Thread starter
- #9
That's a lot of glaciers...
Toronado3800
Gold Member
- Nov 15, 2009
- 7,608
- 560
- 140
GREENLAND See Greenland Icecap Growing Thicker
Greenland glacier advancing 7.2 miles per year! The BBC recently ran
a documentary, The Big Chill, saying that we could be on the verge of an ice
age. Britain could be heading towards an Alaskan-type climate within a decade,
say scientists, because the Gulf Stream is being gradually cut off. The Gulf
Stream keeps temperatures unusually high for such a northerly latitude.
One of Greenland’s largest glaciers has already doubled its rate of advance,
moving forward at the rate of 12 kilometers (7.2 miles) per year. To see a
transcript of the documentary,
lol. They're using a modification in the gulf stream to make a point for global cooling?
Guess a lack of volcanic eruptions and lava flow will do that to ice on a mountain.#
#
Mount St. Helens’ Crater Glacier Advancing Three Feet Per Day
25 Jun 07 - See Crater Glacier
It is a little weak.Geologists Unexpectedly Find
100 Glaciers in Colorado
Geologists exploring Colorado's Rocky Mountain Park say that they
discovered more than 100 additional glaciers here in a single summer,
said Verrengia.
Officials previously believed the park, which is 60 miles northwest of
Denver, included 20 permanent ice and snow features, including six named
glaciers. The new survey, conducted by geologist Jonathan Achuff, shows
there are as many as 120 features.
"Comparisons with historical photos suggest that at least some of the
glaciers are expanding," say park officials. "Subtle climate changes may
be helping the formation of glaciers or at least reducing their retreat."
Hey, can we get a quote from a fictional character from a Michael Chrichton book?
- Thread starter
- #11
Mr. H.
Diamond Member
A website backed by the Hearthland Institute which is funded by the oil companies.
What a coincidink!
While you're at it, post a link. Make sure it includes all funding sources.
- Thread starter
- #13
A website backed by the Hearthland Institute which is funded by the oil companies.
What a coincidink!
While you're at it, post a link. Make sure it includes all funding sources.
Ah, you cut to the core that is Chris.
Aimless, thoughtless, repeated regurgitation...
A website backed by the Hearthland Institute which is funded by the oil companies.
What a coincidink!
While you're at it, post a link. Make sure it includes all funding sources.
Ah, you cut to the core that is Chris.
Aimless, thoughtless, repeated regurgitation...
Thanks for proving me right about the winters in Va. the other day that was great!
You're the best!
For the past three weeks, a set of figures has been working a hole in my mind. On April 16, New Scientist published a letter from the famous botanist David Bellamy. Many of the world's glaciers, he claimed, "are not shrinking but in fact are growing ... 555 of all the 625 glaciers under observation by the World Glacier Monitoring Service in Zurich, Switzerland, have been growing since 1980". His letter was instantly taken up by climate change deniers. And it began to worry me. What if Bellamy was right?
"This is complete bullshit"
— World Glacier Monitoring Service
He is a scientist, formerly a senior lecturer at the University of Durham. He knows, in other words, that you cannot credibly cite data unless it is well-sourced. Could it be that one of the main lines of evidence of the impact of global warming — the retreat of the world's glaciers — is wrong?
The question could scarcely be more important. If man-made climate change is happening, as the great majority of the world's climatologists claim, it could destroy the conditions that allow human beings to remain on the planet. The effort to cut greenhouse gases must come before everything else. This won't happen unless we can be confident that the science is right. Because Bellamy is president of the Conservation Foundation, the Wildlife Trusts, Plantlife International and the British Naturalists' Association, his statements carry a great deal of weight. When, for example, I challenged the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders over climate change, its spokesman cited Bellamy's position as a reason for remaining sceptical.
So last week I telephoned the World Glacier Monitoring Service and read out Bellamy's letter. I don't think the response would have been published in Nature, but it had the scientific virtue of clarity: "This is complete bullshit." A few hours later, they sent me an email: "Despite his scientific reputation, he makes all the mistakes that are possible." He had cited data that was simply false, he had failed to provide references, he had completely misunderstood the scientific context and neglected current scientific literature. The latest studies show unequivocally that most of the world's glaciers are retreating.
But I still couldn't put the question out of my mind. The figures that Bellamy cited must have come from somewhere. I emailed him to ask for his source. After several requests, he replied to me at the end of last week. The data, he said, came from a website called Ice Age Now. Iceagenow was constructed by a man called Robert W Felix to promote his self-published book about "the coming ice age". It claims that sea levels are falling, not rising; that the Asian tsunami was caused by the "ice age cycle"; and that "underwater volcanic activity — not human activity — is heating the seas".
Is Felix a climatologist, a volcanologist or an oceanographer? Er, none of the above. His biography describes him as a "former architect". His website is so bonkers that I thought at first it was a spoof.
Junk Science: David Bellamy's Inaccurate and Selective Figures on Glacier Shrinkage are a Boon to Climate Change Deniers GEORGE MONBIOT / The Guardian (UK) 10may2005
"This is complete bullshit"
— World Glacier Monitoring Service
He is a scientist, formerly a senior lecturer at the University of Durham. He knows, in other words, that you cannot credibly cite data unless it is well-sourced. Could it be that one of the main lines of evidence of the impact of global warming — the retreat of the world's glaciers — is wrong?
The question could scarcely be more important. If man-made climate change is happening, as the great majority of the world's climatologists claim, it could destroy the conditions that allow human beings to remain on the planet. The effort to cut greenhouse gases must come before everything else. This won't happen unless we can be confident that the science is right. Because Bellamy is president of the Conservation Foundation, the Wildlife Trusts, Plantlife International and the British Naturalists' Association, his statements carry a great deal of weight. When, for example, I challenged the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders over climate change, its spokesman cited Bellamy's position as a reason for remaining sceptical.
So last week I telephoned the World Glacier Monitoring Service and read out Bellamy's letter. I don't think the response would have been published in Nature, but it had the scientific virtue of clarity: "This is complete bullshit." A few hours later, they sent me an email: "Despite his scientific reputation, he makes all the mistakes that are possible." He had cited data that was simply false, he had failed to provide references, he had completely misunderstood the scientific context and neglected current scientific literature. The latest studies show unequivocally that most of the world's glaciers are retreating.
But I still couldn't put the question out of my mind. The figures that Bellamy cited must have come from somewhere. I emailed him to ask for his source. After several requests, he replied to me at the end of last week. The data, he said, came from a website called Ice Age Now. Iceagenow was constructed by a man called Robert W Felix to promote his self-published book about "the coming ice age". It claims that sea levels are falling, not rising; that the Asian tsunami was caused by the "ice age cycle"; and that "underwater volcanic activity — not human activity — is heating the seas".
Is Felix a climatologist, a volcanologist or an oceanographer? Er, none of the above. His biography describes him as a "former architect". His website is so bonkers that I thought at first it was a spoof.
Junk Science: David Bellamy's Inaccurate and Selective Figures on Glacier Shrinkage are a Boon to Climate Change Deniers GEORGE MONBIOT / The Guardian (UK) 10may2005
Last edited:
You can't make this stuff up.....
But there, indeed, was all the material that Bellamy cited in his letter, including the figures — or something resembling the figures — he quoted. "Since 1980, there has been an advance of more than 55% of the 625 mountain glaciers under observation by the World Glacier Monitoring group in Zurich." The source, which Bellamy also cited in his email to me, was given as "the latest issue of 21st Century Science and Technology".
21st Century Science and Technology? It sounds impressive, until you discover that it is published by Lyndon LaRouche. Lyndon LaRouche is the American demagogue who in 1989 received a 15-year sentence for conspiracy, mail fraud and tax-code violations. He has claimed that the British royal family is running an international drugs syndicate, that Henry Kissinger is a communist agent, that the British government is controlled by Jewish bankers, and that modern science is a conspiracy against human potential.
It wasn't hard to find out that this is one of his vehicles: LaRouche is named on the front page of the magazine's website, and the edition Bellamy cites contains an article beginning: "We in LaRouche's Youth Movement find ourselves in combat with an old enemy that destroys human beings ... it is empiricism."
Oh well, at least there is a source for Bellamy's figures. But where did 21st Century Science and Technology get them from? It doesn't say. But I think we can make an informed guess, for the same data can be found all over the internet. They were first published online by Professor Fred Singer, one of the very few climate change deniers who has a vaguely relevant qualification (he is, or was, an environmental scientist). He posted them on his website, SEPP - Science & Environmental Policy Project, and they were then reproduced by the appropriately named junkscience.com, by the Cooler Heads Coalition, the US National Centre for Public Policy Research and countless others. They have even found their way into the Washington Post.
They are constantly quoted as evidence that man-made climate change is not happening. But where did they come from? Singer cites half a source: "A paper published in Science in 1989." Well, the paper might be 16 years old, but at least, and at last, there is one. Surely?
I went through every edition of Science published in 1989, both manually and electronically. Not only did it contain nothing resembling those figures, throughout that year there was no paper published in this journal about glacial advance or retreat.
So it wasn't looking too good for Bellamy, or Singer, or any of the deniers who have cited these figures. But there was still one mystery to clear up. While Bellamy's source claimed that 55% of 625 glaciers are advancing, Bellamy claimed that 555 of them — or 89% — are advancing. This figure appears to exist nowhere else. But on the standard English keyboard, 5 and % occupy the same key. If you try to hit %, but fail to press shift, you get 555, instead of 55%. This is the only explanation I can produce for his figure. When I challenged him, he admitted that there had been "a glitch of the electronics".
So, in Bellamy's poor typing, we have the basis for a whole new front in the war against climate science. The 555 figure is now being cited as definitive evidence that global warming is a "fraud", a "scam", a "lie". I phoned New Scientist to ask if Bellamy had requested a correction. He had not.
Junk Science: David Bellamy's Inaccurate and Selective Figures on Glacier Shrinkage are a Boon to Climate Change Deniers GEORGE MONBIOT / The Guardian (UK) 10may2005
But there, indeed, was all the material that Bellamy cited in his letter, including the figures — or something resembling the figures — he quoted. "Since 1980, there has been an advance of more than 55% of the 625 mountain glaciers under observation by the World Glacier Monitoring group in Zurich." The source, which Bellamy also cited in his email to me, was given as "the latest issue of 21st Century Science and Technology".
21st Century Science and Technology? It sounds impressive, until you discover that it is published by Lyndon LaRouche. Lyndon LaRouche is the American demagogue who in 1989 received a 15-year sentence for conspiracy, mail fraud and tax-code violations. He has claimed that the British royal family is running an international drugs syndicate, that Henry Kissinger is a communist agent, that the British government is controlled by Jewish bankers, and that modern science is a conspiracy against human potential.
It wasn't hard to find out that this is one of his vehicles: LaRouche is named on the front page of the magazine's website, and the edition Bellamy cites contains an article beginning: "We in LaRouche's Youth Movement find ourselves in combat with an old enemy that destroys human beings ... it is empiricism."
Oh well, at least there is a source for Bellamy's figures. But where did 21st Century Science and Technology get them from? It doesn't say. But I think we can make an informed guess, for the same data can be found all over the internet. They were first published online by Professor Fred Singer, one of the very few climate change deniers who has a vaguely relevant qualification (he is, or was, an environmental scientist). He posted them on his website, SEPP - Science & Environmental Policy Project, and they were then reproduced by the appropriately named junkscience.com, by the Cooler Heads Coalition, the US National Centre for Public Policy Research and countless others. They have even found their way into the Washington Post.
They are constantly quoted as evidence that man-made climate change is not happening. But where did they come from? Singer cites half a source: "A paper published in Science in 1989." Well, the paper might be 16 years old, but at least, and at last, there is one. Surely?
I went through every edition of Science published in 1989, both manually and electronically. Not only did it contain nothing resembling those figures, throughout that year there was no paper published in this journal about glacial advance or retreat.
So it wasn't looking too good for Bellamy, or Singer, or any of the deniers who have cited these figures. But there was still one mystery to clear up. While Bellamy's source claimed that 55% of 625 glaciers are advancing, Bellamy claimed that 555 of them — or 89% — are advancing. This figure appears to exist nowhere else. But on the standard English keyboard, 5 and % occupy the same key. If you try to hit %, but fail to press shift, you get 555, instead of 55%. This is the only explanation I can produce for his figure. When I challenged him, he admitted that there had been "a glitch of the electronics".
So, in Bellamy's poor typing, we have the basis for a whole new front in the war against climate science. The 555 figure is now being cited as definitive evidence that global warming is a "fraud", a "scam", a "lie". I phoned New Scientist to ask if Bellamy had requested a correction. He had not.
Junk Science: David Bellamy's Inaccurate and Selective Figures on Glacier Shrinkage are a Boon to Climate Change Deniers GEORGE MONBIOT / The Guardian (UK) 10may2005
Last edited:
Andrew2382
Gold Member
- Oct 1, 2008
- 3,994
- 551
- 153
lmao...what the idiot Chris doesn't understand is the right will never say there aren't glaciers that aren't melting away...yet he can't admit that there are Glaciers that are actually getting BIGGER because it would contradict his bull shit science. He is fucking pathetic
Oddball
Unobtanium Member
I prefer the vintage stuff.It is a little weak.
Hey, can we get a quote from a fictional character from a Michael Chrichton book?
I'm sure we can find a suitable analog in one of Rand's crappy novels...If you think that'll help.
Toronado3800
Gold Member
- Nov 15, 2009
- 7,608
- 560
- 140
lmao...what the idiot Chris doesn't understand is the right will never say there aren't glaciers that aren't melting away...yet he can't admit that there are Glaciers that are actually getting BIGGER because it would contradict his bull shit science. He is fucking pathetic
My, what a polite use of adjectives. Listen to the Dude he can show you how to make a point.
Toronado3800
Gold Member
- Nov 15, 2009
- 7,608
- 560
- 140
lmao...what the idiot Chris doesn't understand is the right will never say there aren't glaciers that aren't melting away...yet he can't admit that there are Glaciers that are actually getting BIGGER because it would contradict his bull shit science. He is fucking pathetic
Oh, and ice under extreme pressure flows. Can't mistake calving with a glacier "breaking up due to global warming" same as you can't always blame the advance and retreat of some glaciers on short term events.
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