Al Qaeda won't "take over" Iraq, if we redeploy

[actsnoblemartin]

iraq has turned into the new version of immigration. Meaning, we cant have an honest dialogue about it. I think iraq does not even have one clear solution, staying doesnt solve the problem: yet, but leaving, we have no clue, what exactly what will happen.

I think the word win: should be replaced with stabalize, we are trying to stablize iraq so we can leave

surrender: I would change this word to a group of people, who believe we cannot win in iraq, and should know when to hold and when to fold um, as that song says.

I think if you ask the israelies, 4 years is nothing for a war. I personally, cannot see living when the tough getting going as a good idea, examples of such: somalia, and lebanon.

 

[Eightball]

Maybe we should think about the semantics as some have said.

In South Vietnam we fought Communism, yet if we had won in South Vietnam we would not have defeated Communism per se', but we would have slowed it's influence in Southeast Asia, appreciably.

Actually in retrospect, South Vietnam that is now just Vietnam could some day gradually democratize as the Northern governmental powers can't quelch the influence of the Western world from seeping into the South especially, as tourism dollars/Euros roll in.

Similarly, Tiananmen Square isn't something the Chinese government has brought to an end. There is such a strong capitalistic movement in the Republic of China, and such a strong under-ground Christian church too, that nothing is going to stop folks from gradually attaining liberty, and freedom, even with the strong arm of Maoist type pressure.

Likewise, in Iraq, if we bring hostilities down to a minimum and basically neutralize AQ's influence, then that probably isn't a defeat of AQ, but it sure will have knocked some perverbial wind out of their sails, and probable their influence in other countries too.

To "win" is in some ways in the eye of the beholder, as a "win" can be just hanging in there long enough for the present Iraqi government to gets it's walking legs going, and for a National police and military force to get established. It doesn't end Islamic militancy, but it bloodies it's perverbial nose, and surely causes it setbacks in other parts of the world.

I don't think we will ever get the "hugs and kisses" from any of these Islamic governments or their populous that we would desire, as their ethical/religious motivations and culture go very "cross-grained" to our Western culture and religious/ethical basis of life and how we look at human, both male and female.

Islam and Democratization seem to be like water and oil. They aren't mixing too well at this time. Something has to "give" or we are in for some real problems........Thats reality.

To be moderately Islamic is to be un-Koranic, and that just makes for some problems for the continued future.
******
Win, stablize, whatever, we have to pull out when we think these folks can self govern and self defend from within and without. We can still be a force to quick-deploy, as is the case with our presence in South Korea, and for years in West Germany, before the USSR cave-in.
*****
I wish that somehow when we invaded in the last conflict that we could have somehow partitioned-off the Kurdish, Sunni, and Southern Shiite Muslims areas into "three states" within the larger country of Iraq, and then had a central government with basically loosely governed states based on their strong religious differences and cultures. Call them provinces, states, whatever, but maybe that would have made a difference.
******
Seems to boil down to the American people perceiving a personal threat upon themselves with whats going on in the Middle East. If it doesn't touch our physical shores, then it isn't a threat.

I tend to be "far reaching" in my way of seeing or perceiving threat. I don't like it to sneek up and bite me in the perverbial arse. I'd rather smack the enemy down early than late. Often this saves lives, but I'm sure the war detractors will have another angle on that one.

I also see it like Vector control. Get those critter while their larvae's before they are blood sucking Mosquitoes.

 

[maineman]

"I wish that somehow when we invaded in the last conflict that we could have somehow partitioned-off the Kurdish, Sunni, and Southern Shiite Muslims areas into "three states" within the larger country of Iraq, and then had a central government with basically loosely governed states based on their strong religious differences and cultures. Call them provinces, states, whatever, but maybe that would have made a difference."

Joe Biden's plan, to the letter. I am sure he will be glad to know he has your support!

 

[Eightball]

"I wish that somehow when we invaded in the last conflict that we could have somehow partitioned-off the Kurdish, Sunni, and Southern Shiite Muslims areas into "three states" within the larger country of Iraq, and then had a central government with basically loosely governed states based on their strong religious differences and cultures. Call them provinces, states, whatever, but maybe that would have made a difference."

Joe Biden's plan, to the letter. I am sure he will be glad to know he has your support!

I think if GWB had tried that method, though, he'd of been accused of nation building to the nth degree.

GWB like so many conservatives are always in a no-win situation with their political opposition, unlike FDR, and Truman during WW2. Although there were a lot of criticisms of the managing of WW2 by the administrations, the Repubs. respectfully encouraged unity throughout the long war.

 

[maineman]

I think if GWB had tried that method, though, he'd of been accused of nation building to the nth degree.

GWB like so many conservatives are always in a no-win situation with their political opposition, unlike FDR, and Truman during WW2. Although there were a lot of criticisms of the managing of WW2 by the administrations, the Repubs. respectfully encouraged unity throughout the long war.

Bush, who proclaimed that he was totally AGAINST nation-building set himself up for such criticism.

and the republicans were so supportive of Clinton, weren't they, when he was acting along with NATO in the Balkans?

 

[Eightball]

Bush, who proclaimed that he was totally AGAINST nation-building set himself up for such criticism.

and the republicans were so supportive of Clinton, weren't they, when he was acting along with NATO in the Balkans?

Just remember that the Serbians that Clinton and our country went against were are staunch WW2 allies, during the Nazi occupations. The Serbs saved the lives of so many Allied pilots that were shot down in Nazi occupied territory.

Did we endear ourselves to the Bosnian Muslims via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.

The Serb/Bosnian situation has been ongoing, for years, and will never end. Now, we have one less ally, and one that was a temporary one, until we stifled their enemy.

The Serbian atrocities were unconscionable, but the Bosnians were not clean-handed against the Serbs either. Just wait until there is a Muslim majority in the region. Koranic law will prevail in a gradual subjugation of the Serbs, and we will sit back with our P.C. attitude and pretend it isn't happening.

Just like "Black Hawk Down".

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Just remember that the Serbians that Clinton and our country went against were are staunch WW2 allies, during the Nazi occupations. The Serbs saved the lives of so many Allied pilots that were shot down in Nazi occupied territory.

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.

The Serb/Croat situation has been ongoing, for years, and will never end. Now, we have one less ally, and one that was a temporary one, until we stifled their enemy.

The Serbian atrocities were unconscionable, but the Croates were not clean-handed against the Serbs either. Just wait until there is a Muslim majority in the region. Koranic law will prevail in a gradual subjugation of the Serbs, and we will sit back with our P.C. attitude and pretend it isn't happening.

Just like "Black Hawk Down".

Fer Christ sake Dateballs, get you empty head outta The Wholly Babble and do some research before you pontificate about something you obviously know fuck-all about.

Croats and “their Islamic adherence?”

Serbs and Croats going Muslim?

Both of them would rather be dead! These peoples were fighting Muslims before America was a gleam in its Proddie Mullahs eyes!

It was the U.S that supported the Kosovan MUSLIMS in their successful attempt to break away from Christian Serbia. And I have a CATHOLIC Croat mate that would kill you for even suggesting Croats are Muslims or even Serbian Orthodox Christians.

BTW, it was mostly Tito's COMMIES that saved allied airman in WW2. Not to mention tying up about 30 German and Axis divisions in Jugoslavia that would otherwise have kicked allied "ass" in Italy. The Serbian Chetniks played both sides of the fence, often siding with the Nazis.

PS: there was also a Muslim Division in Hitler's SS.

 

[DeadCanDance]

Just remember that the Serbians that Clinton and our country went against were are staunch WW2 allies, during the Nazi occupations. The Serbs saved the lives of so many Allied pilots that were shot down in Nazi occupied territory.

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.

The Serb/Croat situation has been ongoing, for years, and will never end. Now, we have one less ally, and one that was a temporary one, until we stifled their enemy.

The Serbian atrocities were unconscionable, but the Croates were not clean-handed against the Serbs either. Just wait until there is a Muslim majority in the region. Koranic law will prevail in a gradual subjugation of the Serbs, and we will sit back with our P.C. attitude and pretend it isn't happening.

Just like "Black Hawk Down".

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.


Croatia is a catholic country. There are hardly any muslims there. You have the wrong country, you're totally in the wrong ballpark.

You really shouldn't embarrass yourself, and pretend like you know what you're talking about. You just shot your credibility in the foot here.

 

[dilloduck]

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.


Croatia is a catholic country. There are hardly any muslims there. You have the wrong country, you're totally in the wrong ballpark.

You really shouldn't embarrass yourself, and pretend like you know what you're talking about. You just shot your credibility in the foot here.

Absolutely correct---Why did Clinton protect bin ladens buddies anyway?

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.


Croatia is a catholic country. There are hardly any muslims there. You have the wrong country, you're totally in the wrong ballpark.

You really shouldn't embarrass yourself, and pretend like you know what you're talking about. You just shot your credibility in the foot here.

Of course you realise the politico-religious reality in the Balkans will all change immediately once He consults His God, i.e. Himself.

God has never been know to disagree with whatever Dateballs thinks!

Indeed, ever heard of a Chriistian leader (..are there any other types of leaders?) saying, "I don't think God is with us on this one" before declaring - or not declaring in Japan...ooops, America's case - war on another country?

Going by the U.S's unsurpassed record of attacking countries, God must be a dead set fucking psychopath.

And whaddaya now, Dateballs' Bible confirms this in spades!

 

[DeadCanDance]

Absolutely correct---Why did Clinton protect bin ladens buddies anyway?

What rightwing koolaid have you been guzzling? And what wingnut blogs have you been reading? I don't even know what your talking about.

Foreign fighters were expelled from bosnia as a result of the dayton accords.* Bosnia's intelligence cooperation with iran ceased. NATO troops were welcomed and deployed. There is no al qaeda safe haven in bosnia, operating under the nose of twenty thousand NATO peacekeepers.

Your president on the other hand, allowed Al Qaeda into iraq, let them have a safe haven in pakistan, and diverted us from afghanistan before the job of finishing off al qaeda there was done.


* US Department of Defense Website

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41195

 

[dilloduck]

What rightwing koolaid have you been guzzling? And what wingnut blogs have you been reading? I don't even know what your talking about.

Foreign fighters were expelled from bosnia as a result of the dayton accords.* Bosnia's intelligence cooperation with iran ceased. NATO troops were welcomed and deployed. There is no al qaeda safe haven in bosnia, operating under the nose of twenty thousand NATO peacekeepers.

Your president on the other hand, allowed Al Qaeda into iraq, let them have a safe haven in pakistan, and diverted us from afghanistan before the job of finishing off al qaeda there was done.


* US Department of Defense Website

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41195

start with this
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/035.shtml

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2842us_alqaeda_kla.html

 

[maineman]

start with this
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/035.shtml

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2001/2842us_alqaeda_kla.html

yeah. so you admit you drink koolaid and therefore think that weirdass blogs like that are more valid than the DoD. that was his point all along!

 

[dilloduck]

yeah. so you admit you drink koolaid and therefore think that weirdass blogs like that are more valid than the DoD. that was his point all along!

So you're saying that America was NOT involved in protecting Muslims in Kosovo ?

 

[maineman]

So you're saying that America was NOT involved in protecting Muslims in Kosovo ?

muslims? of course. Al Qaeda? koolaid soaked just blog spew.

 

[dilloduck]

muslims? of course. Al Qaeda? koolaid soaked just blog spew.

How about the KLA ?

Mainstream accounts of the Kosovo War are silent about the role of al Qaeda in training and financing the UCK/KLA, yet this fact has been recognized by experts and to my knowledge never contested by them. For example, James Bissett, former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia, said "Many members of the Kosovo Liberation Army were sent for training in terrorist camps in Afghanistan.. Milosevic is right. There is no question of their [al Qaeda's] participation in conflicts in the Balkans. It is very well documented."[50] In March 2002, Michael Steiner, the United Nations administrator in Kosovo, warned of "importing the Afghan danger to Europe" because several cells trained and financed by al-Qaeda remained in the region.[51]

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/2005/0730alqaeda.pdf

 

[Eightball]

Did we endear ourselves to the Croates via the Nato war?

Hardly, their Islamic adherence now aligns them with their bretheren, over common sense.


Croatia is a catholic country. There are hardly any muslims there. You have the wrong country, you're totally in the wrong ballpark.

You really shouldn't embarrass yourself, and pretend like you know what you're talking about. You just shot your credibility in the foot here.

Mental mistake, I meant Bosnian Muslims.

Thank you for pointing out my error.

I sure wish you hadn't ended your comment to me on a not-so-kind note with the, "You really shouldn't embarrass yourself, and pretend like you know what you're talking about. You just shot your credibility in the foot here."

You see, your corrective comment would have been welcomed by me in a much different spirit, if you hadn't thrown in the "mean" stuff. That's not being very kind. I have no beef or personal thing with you, why did you have to say what you said to me? I don't know you personally, and likewise you don't know me. Sadly, you resorted to the "stuff" that so many on this board resort to. Unkind, hurtful comments, that spoil good, healthy intercourse of thought and debate.

Just correct me in a polite, respectful way, and you'll get reciprocal treatment that way.

We don't have to agree politically to be civil, do we?