Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[IM2]

AA is helpful to white women. Historically it has been very helpful to white men.

Helpful to white men, how ? By ruining their chances to get ahead ? Don't talk stupid.

As for white women, much more of them are hurt by AA, who are daughters, wives, etc of discriminated against white men.

The only one talking stupid is you.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

My choices? Do you think I have a choice in where my property tax goes?

You seem to understand the injustice in taking the fruit of your labor by threat of violence and using it in ways you don't necessarily agree with (or even have outright moral objections to). What I don't understand is why you continue to support such a system. I assume you also recognize that this is wrong as applied to others, even if their priorities differ from your own (in other words, it's equally wrong to force others to pay for those things that you deem important). Why do you abide this injustice? You always have a choice. You can choose to remove your support from this system where possible, and speak out against it; but so far you seem to be supporting the Republican party, which makes you an accomplice in these crimes. Wouldn't you rather be condoning true freedom and self-ownership? It seems that would be more in keeping with your values.

There are only two ways to vote in this country: Republican or Democrat. Voting on anybody or anything else is just throwing your vote away.

Since most of us will never find a person or party we totally agree with, the only thing you can do is vote as close as you can get to what you believe.

Why do I abide by this injustice? Because if I don't pay my taxes, they will see me in court. If I still refuse to pay my taxes, they will sue me out of house and home. Again, no choice in the matter.

I get it. When a bear in the woods indicates that he wants your sandwich, you should probably give it up, whether he has a right to it or not. But I don't agree that all you can do is vote. In fact, I view voting as a census taken by the controlling interests to see how many people still believe in the lie of their power. Same with most political activism; all it does is validate their authority by implying change must come by their command.

Voting is saying, "I condone this person ruling over me, my family, and my neighbors". I get the whole civics bit and the "representative" nonsense, but the bottom line is that they make law that you must obey or be punished. That's what rulers do to subjects. That's what masters do to slaves. Pulling a lever every 2-4 years and rotating them out every now and then doesn't change the nature of the relationship between the individual and that seat of power.

I see other options. You can remove your support in every way possible (without martyring yourself), especially in the public discourse. You can avoid taxation where feasible, you can stop voting, you can stop using government programs, or accepting anything paid for with tax dollars (again, where feasible), you can get them out of your head - and this last bit is the most important part. In the movie "Roots: The Next Generations", the character Kizzy saw her fiance begging at the feet of his master. She was disgusted and screamed at him, "When they bought your body, you threw in your soul for free!" That's what I'm talking about. You can assert your freedom in your own mind, exercise it where you can get away with it, and speak it to others at every opportunity.

The cultural consciousness can change. It has changed, many times. If a significant minority (particularly military and police personnel) turns their back on government it will simply fade away through lack of support. I understand how seemingly impossible that is, but just think of the impossibilities man has achieved relative to any historical period of your choosing. In early 19th century America, the abolition of slavery was unthinkable. They thought the economy would collapse. Yet here we are. It may take time, but we can choose to be on the right side of history. Man is born free. He has unalienable rights. We can choose to accept no less than full recognition of this fact.

 

[IM2]

'Affirmative action' (dumb name) was certainly necessary at a time. The American system had failed for significant numbers of people and something had to be done. If 'America' had functioned as we dreamed it would, this (and forced desegregation, for another example) would never have been needed. Continuing affirmative action should be thoroughly examined and debated. There are indications that such a program today is counter-productive if too rigidly applied.

The point is, it is RACIST, when racially applied.

AA could be a positive thing though, if it were done on a basis of economic class (financial need). Then you wouldn't have wealthy blacks getting preferences$$, while poor whites are shoved aside. And ALL poor folks would get help.

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

 

[Timmy]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

But you still benefit today . Generation after generation hooked each other up . Still happens today .

How many people get jobs based on who they know .

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

For those complaining about the term "affirmative action"

Executive Order 11246, signed by President Lyndon B. Johnson on September 24, 1965, established requirements for non-discriminatory practices in hiring and employment on the part of U.S. government contractors. It "prohibits federal contractors and federally assisted construction contractors and subcontractors, who do over $10,000 in Government business in one year from discriminating in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin."[1] It also requires contractors to "***take affirmative action*** to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin." The phrase affirmative action had appeared previously in Executive Order 10925 in 1961.
Executive Order 11246 - Wikipedia​

So contrary to popular belief the affirmative action program was not instituted to create lawful discrimination against whites, it's was a prohibition to government contractors from [continuing their] discrimination against non-whites in their hiring & promotion practices.

Furthermore

President Lyndon B. Johnson, in his June 4, 1965, Howard University speech, ''To Fulfill These Rights,'' set out the many causes of ''Negro'' inequality and stated:

''You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, 'You are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair. Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.''

L.B.J. went on to set out the history of discrimination and the ''special nature of Negro poverty'' to make the case that to right these wrongs, ''equal opportunity is essential, but not enough.''
L.B.J. on Race Equality​

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My choices? Do you think I have a choice in where my property tax goes?

You seem to understand the injustice in taking the fruit of your labor by threat of violence and using it in ways you don't necessarily agree with (or even have outright moral objections to). What I don't understand is why you continue to support such a system. I assume you also recognize that this is wrong as applied to others, even if their priorities differ from your own (in other words, it's equally wrong to force others to pay for those things that you deem important). Why do you abide this injustice? You always have a choice. You can choose to remove your support from this system where possible, and speak out against it; but so far you seem to be supporting the Republican party, which makes you an accomplice in these crimes. Wouldn't you rather be condoning true freedom and self-ownership? It seems that would be more in keeping with your values.

There are only two ways to vote in this country: Republican or Democrat. Voting on anybody or anything else is just throwing your vote away.

Since most of us will never find a person or party we totally agree with, the only thing you can do is vote as close as you can get to what you believe.

Why do I abide by this injustice? Because if I don't pay my taxes, they will see me in court. If I still refuse to pay my taxes, they will sue me out of house and home. Again, no choice in the matter.

I get it. When a bear in the woods indicates that he wants your sandwich, you should probably give it up, whether he has a right to it or not. But I don't agree that all you can do is vote. In fact, I view voting as a census taken by the controlling interests to see how many people still believe in the lie of their power. Same with most political activism; all it does is validate their authority by implying change must come by their command.

Voting is saying, "I condone this person ruling over me, my family, and my neighbors". I get the whole civics bit and the "representative" nonsense, but the bottom line is that they make law that you must obey or be punished. That's what rulers do to subjects. That's what masters do to slaves. Pulling a lever every 2-4 years and rotating them out every now and then doesn't change the nature of the relationship between the individual and that seat of power.

I see other options. You can remove your support in every way possible (without martyring yourself), especially in the public discourse. You can avoid taxation where feasible, you can stop voting, you can stop using government programs, or accepting anything paid for with tax dollars (again, where feasible), you can get them out of your head - and this last bit is the most important part. In the movie "Roots: The Next Generations", the character Kizzy saw her fiance begging at the feet of his master. She was disgusted and screamed at him, "When they bought your body, you threw in your soul for free!" That's what I'm talking about. You can assert your freedom in your own mind, exercise it where you can get away with it, and speak it to others at every opportunity.

The cultural consciousness can change. It has changed, many times. If a significant minority (particularly military and police personnel) turns their back on government it will simply fade away through lack of support. I understand how seemingly impossible that is, but just think of the impossibilities man has achieved relative to any historical period of your choosing. In early 19th century America, the abolition of slavery was unthinkable. They thought the economy would collapse. Yet here we are. It may take time, but we can choose to be on the right side of history. Man is born free. He has unalienable rights. We can choose to accept no less than full recognition of this fact.

In a civilized and organized society, we make laws, regulation and taxation. It's been that way since our founding. That being said, nobody is able to make such laws and taxation to satisfy everybody. For instance, I'm not happy with the sending bill that just passed. But instead of becoming an anarchist and accomplishing nothing, I will vote on different leaders hoping to accomplish things that I would like to see addressed.

Until the current law is no longer the law, as a member of a civilized society, I will have to abide by those laws whether I like them or not. Since this is a topic regarding race, unarmed black suspects have been killed by the police. In most all cases, the police did nothing wrong because we as society give them the right to use deadly force if they believe they are threatened. Even though more unarmed whites get killed by police than unarmed blacks, blacks are upset by the legal actions of our police. But instead of working on changing the law, they riot and protest instead.

How did that work out for them?

 

[Asclepias]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

AA is helpful to white women. Historically it has been very helpful to white men.

Did you watch the video?

I tried to watch the video and the guy immediately let me know he was a uncle tom.

Why? because he doesnt sag his pants?

That and he sounds like he has a stick up his ass.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

But you still benefit today . Generation after generation hooked each other up . Still happens today .

How many people get jobs based on who they know .

Probably not many. I don't benefit today. When I got out of high school, I applied for a job and I got one. It's something any black or any person of race could have done.

As for myself and any of my friends or family, if we inherit anything from our parents, we will be the first generation to do so. Being white doesn't mean you were born rich. Most whites in the generations before mine didn't have much money. I know my parents didn't. My father could tell you stories about when he grew up that would make you cry.

The problem in the black community is not what happened before AA, the problem in the black community is Democrats brainwashed them into believing in excuses.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So why should I pay three fold of what somebody else paid for me? And no, most of my education was in a private Catholic school where the church parishioners footed the bill.

Your parents and your own choices

My choices? Do you think I have a choice in where my property tax goes?

Tax code is written to reward those who have children

You choose to ignore those tax advantages

And how do I take those advantages? Having children I do not want?

The tax code was written to take from some to give to others.

When you rob Peter to pay Paul, the Paul's of your society generally have no objection.

As a society, we have decided to encourage the formation of families.

How? By taking money from those who don't have children and giving their money to those that do?

 

[IM2]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community. You are a racist Ray, you practice discrimination by race, so you can drop the bullshit and recognize that as long as whites like you exist the policy needs to stay in place.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My parents did not pay for all my education. They raised four kids and paid around $400 a year in real estate taxes. That didn’t come close to paying for our education

I didn’t pay for my children’s education either. What I paid in taxes didn’t come close to what it cost to educate them

Correct, and do you know why? Because the people with no kids in school were subsidizing you and your children's education. Nothing is free. Free to a liberal means no charge to you, and foot the bill to somebody else.

Education is free in that you don’t receive a bill and receive a good education

I’d rather see my tax dollars go to healthcare, infrastructure and education than to prop up puppet dictators on the other side of the world

That's fine, but why do people with no children pay more than those that do have children in some cases?

Look.......if you want a kid, that's fine with me. You feed them, you clothe them, you house them, and you educate them. If you can't do that, you have no business having children in my opinion. Maybe if people who had children in school did start to pay for them, they would have less children they can't afford in the first place and probably take their education more seriously.

 

[IM2]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

But you still benefit today . Generation after generation hooked each other up . Still happens today .

How many people get jobs based on who they know .

Probably not many. I don't benefit today. When I got out of high school, I applied for a job and I got one. It's something any black or any person of race could have done.

As for myself and any of my friends or family, if we inherit anything from our parents, we will be the first generation to do so. Being white doesn't mean you were born rich. Most whites in the generations before mine didn't have much money. I know my parents didn't. My father could tell you stories about when he grew up that would make you cry.

The problem in the black community is not what happened before AA, the problem in the black community is Democrats brainwashed them into believing in excuses.

No that's not the problem in the black community. You've never been black. Just shut up.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community. You are a racist Ray, you practice discrimination by race, so you can drop the bullshit and recognize that as long as whites like you exist the policy needs to stay in place.

Yeah I'm racist because I disagree with you. There is a difference between "racist" and "realist."

AA is reverse discrimination. It's unconstitutional and it's only keeping separation and racism alive and well.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

But you still benefit today . Generation after generation hooked each other up . Still happens today .

How many people get jobs based on who they know .

Probably not many. I don't benefit today. When I got out of high school, I applied for a job and I got one. It's something any black or any person of race could have done.

As for myself and any of my friends or family, if we inherit anything from our parents, we will be the first generation to do so. Being white doesn't mean you were born rich. Most whites in the generations before mine didn't have much money. I know my parents didn't. My father could tell you stories about when he grew up that would make you cry.

The problem in the black community is not what happened before AA, the problem in the black community is Democrats brainwashed them into believing in excuses.

No that's not the problem in the black community. You've never been black. Just shut up.

I don't have to be black to see what's in front of me.

As I explained earlier, foreigners come to this country with five bucks in their pockets and barely knowing the language. With hard work and determination, they are many times more successful than native born Americans. Talk to them sometime. Let them tell you what REAL oppression and poverty is like. Yet in spite of their horrible past, they put it behind them and move forward instead of looking backwards the rest of their lives.

You can't get ahead in life by dwelling on the past because the past is something you cannot change. You move ahead in life by looking forward and learning from the past. If you are a failure in life, it's not because of something that happened to your grandfather, grandmother or great grandparents. You are a failure because you failed.

 

[BS Filter]

AA is very harmful and racist. It's harmful in that it takes away motivation and the struggle to succeed that everyone should go through in life to build character and integrity. Another liberal failure.

Wrong. Before you post again, go study American history.

Yet, you can't explain why I'm wrong. I lived American history .

It's really something a sane person shouldn't need explained. From 1776 until 1965 by law whites were given every opportunity based only upon skin color by written law. AA does not discriminate unless you think whites deserve every job, every admission or every contract.

It's just as racist to prefer black people for positions as it is whites. You don't get it. If you qualify, great. If not, too bad, regardless of skin color. Otherwise, you're no better than your fellow racists of yesterday.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

WE have AA to try to equalize the institutionalized racism (aka white affirmative action ) in this country .

Want an example ? Just look at President Trump! Hiring his white freinds and family .

Is there one of you that would even dare to say Jared Kushner is the most qualified for his position? This is the stuff that happens at all levels of employment .

So how is Ben Carson qualified to be the head of HUD? The guy is a retired brain surgeon for crying out loud.

 

[BS Filter]

WE have AA to try to equalize the institutionalized racism (aka white affirmative action ) in this country .

Want an example ? Just look at President Trump! Hiring his white freinds and family .

Is there one of you that would even dare to say Jared Kushner is the most qualified for his position? This is the stuff that happens at all levels of employment .

So how is Ben Carson qualified to be the head of HUD? The guy is a retired brain surgeon for crying out loud.

Well, he just might be really smart and have organizational skills acquired from running a hospital. Duh!!

 

[IM2]

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community.

Well if we were at Walmart and I backed into your car causing severe damage, the resolution is not for you to back into mine.

When white people were discriminating against blacks years ago, they were doing just that..... discriminating against black PEOPLE OF THAT TIME! But that time is over--long over. They didn't discriminate against most people of today.

As for the people still alive today that faced legal discrimination, how does AA help them? It doesn't. What's done is done and can't be reversed.

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet. This is another example of the psychosis prevalent in part of the white community. You are a racist Ray, you practice discrimination by race, so you can drop the bullshit and recognize that as long as whites like you exist the policy needs to stay in place.

Yeah I'm racist because I disagree with you. There is a difference between "racist" and "realist."

AA is reverse discrimination. It's unconstitutional and it's only keeping separation and racism alive and well.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination. You are a racist because you express a racist point of view. You aren't a realist or you would understand that whaever you call affimatve actii whites go from 1776 until at least 1965 by written law and it is because of that affirmative action was ordered by President Johnson. In the same way, if you were a realist you understand that since racists do exist that people are still denied due to race which means as long as racists exist, the policy needs to exist.

 

[IM2]

AA is very harmful and racist. It's harmful in that it takes away motivation and the struggle to succeed that everyone should go through in life to build character and integrity. Another liberal failure.

Wrong. Before you post again, go study American history.

Yet, you can't explain why I'm wrong. I lived American history .

It's really something a sane person shouldn't need explained. From 1776 until 1965 by law whites were given every opportunity based only upon skin color by written law. AA does not discriminate unless you think whites deserve every job, every admission or every contract.

It's just as racist to prefer black people for positions as it is whites. You don't get it. If you qualify, great. If not, too bad, regardless of skin color. Otherwise, you're no better than your fellow racists of yesterday.

People who have benefitted from exclusionary racist law and policy for almost 400 years should just be quiet.