ACA Could Lead Physicians to Drop Coverage of Medicare/Medicaid

[Intense]

Ype what I would pay $250 cash for the private insurance company pays maybe $150.

And why is that? I mean if you have auto insurance and you total your car, does the insurance company go to the dealership and pay less than what a cash paying customer would for a vehicle? Of course not. So , why is medical insurance different?

Usually because there's some perceived value in insurance companies steering their customers toward certain doctors. When the insurance companies only pay $150, the doctors don't complain too much because they know in the future that same insurance company might have a patient that needs procedures that result in a profit.

What they want is Referrals, Volume, Bulk, and the hope of making out better on average. No One can survive extended losses. Regulations that Capitalize on those losses putting Institutions out of business, are nothing more than schemes.

 

[Intense]

At the prices that doc's charge and the life they lead in the upper crust of society I can see where the difference between the Hippocratic oath and the want of money have conflicting interest.
Good thing the docs took chickens for payment when their hippocratic oath was more important during the early years of American medicine.

Any clue on what a Surgeon pays for Insurance?

 

[Intense]

Medicare is actually paying what it is worth, not the jacked up price they charge the private insurance company.
It is the same at assisted livings etc. Medicaid pays less for a room, than a private payer would..... Because they can jack up the price for the private payer.

Or... They jack up the cost to the Private Payer, to compensate for the losses from Medicare.

Personally, I think our technology has outpaced our ability to pay for it.

It's just part of the show.

 

[Intense]

Indeed, I'm quite sure the government hasn't thought of this and won't force physicians who accept ANY insurance to accept ALL insurance. As well they should. Doctors should have to accept ANY insurance, this BS about having to find a doctor "in your network" does nothing to lessen the costs of medical care.

Come to think of it , neither does the ACA, what would help is if doctors were forced to lower their prices.

How is it that a $250 bill can suddenly be reduced to $150 when an insurance company gets involved????

You've jumped to the typical, incorrect conclusion. If Physicians are forced to accept Medicaid or, even worse, all forms of insurance, then the Gov/ Insurance Companies hold all of the cards. Then Insurance Companies decide it only costs $40 to run an X-Ray when in reality it costs $100. The Physicians should be forced to run at a loss? That's bogus. That's why Doctors accept some insurance companies but not others. Cheapo Insurance companies like Humana (they usually have reps at Wal Mart) are a pain in the butt to get payments from.

Your second mistake is to say that "Doctors should be forced to lower prices." Why? Do we force grocery stores to lower prices because of hunger? The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay. If you want Doctors to charge you less, boycott them until they do. But most importantly, Doctors charge so much and have the highest salaries because of all the crap they have to go through to practice. 8 years of post high school formal education plus 3 years of general residency and another 3 years of surgical residency. Most graduate with over $300,000 of debt. In order to put up with making no money for 14 years, people need a big carrot. If you force doctors to lower prices and take away their carrot, you'll end up with fewer doctors.

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

You should have asked how much if you paid in cash.

 

[Intense]

You've jumped to the typical, incorrect conclusion. If Physicians are forced to accept Medicaid or, even worse, all forms of insurance, then the Gov/ Insurance Companies hold all of the cards. Then Insurance Companies decide it only costs $40 to run an X-Ray when in reality it costs $100. The Physicians should be forced to run at a loss? That's bogus. That's why Doctors accept some insurance companies but not others. Cheapo Insurance companies like Humana (they usually have reps at Wal Mart) are a pain in the butt to get payments from.

Your second mistake is to say that "Doctors should be forced to lower prices." Why? Do we force grocery stores to lower prices because of hunger? The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay. If you want Doctors to charge you less, boycott them until they do. But most importantly, Doctors charge so much and have the highest salaries because of all the crap they have to go through to practice. 8 years of post high school formal education plus 3 years of general residency and another 3 years of surgical residency. Most graduate with over $300,000 of debt. In order to put up with making no money for 14 years, people need a big carrot. If you force doctors to lower prices and take away their carrot, you'll end up with fewer doctors.

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

It's not "pay or die," it's "pay or go to a different doctor." The reason doctors charge similar prices is because they all had years of student debts to pay off.

That, and what is the fair market value of the service or procedure, even based on the skill level and experience. How is that not fair? Outside of Government work, anyway?

 

[Vidi]

You've jumped to the typical, incorrect conclusion. If Physicians are forced to accept Medicaid or, even worse, all forms of insurance, then the Gov/ Insurance Companies hold all of the cards. Then Insurance Companies decide it only costs $40 to run an X-Ray when in reality it costs $100. The Physicians should be forced to run at a loss? That's bogus. That's why Doctors accept some insurance companies but not others. Cheapo Insurance companies like Humana (they usually have reps at Wal Mart) are a pain in the butt to get payments from.

Your second mistake is to say that "Doctors should be forced to lower prices." Why? Do we force grocery stores to lower prices because of hunger? The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay. If you want Doctors to charge you less, boycott them until they do. But most importantly, Doctors charge so much and have the highest salaries because of all the crap they have to go through to practice. 8 years of post high school formal education plus 3 years of general residency and another 3 years of surgical residency. Most graduate with over $300,000 of debt. In order to put up with making no money for 14 years, people need a big carrot. If you force doctors to lower prices and take away their carrot, you'll end up with fewer doctors.

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

You should have asked how much if you paid in cash.

The answer was in my post. $335 dollars.

( and yes, I realize that there are some doctors who charge less if you pay in full the day of service )

 

[Greenbeard]

The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay.

What is the product here?

 

[atlasshrugged]

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

It's not "pay or die," it's "pay or go to a different doctor." The reason doctors charge similar prices is because they all had years of student debts to pay off.

You just negated your response.

How So? I'm not following you.

 

[Moonglow]

At the prices that doc's charge and the life they lead in the upper crust of society I can see where the difference between the Hippocratic oath and the want of money have conflicting interest.
Good thing the docs took chickens for payment when their hippocratic oath was more important during the early years of American medicine.

Any clue on what a Surgeon pays for Insurance?

before or after government assistance?

 

[Moonglow]

The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay.

What is the product here?

colonoscopy?

 

[Vidi]

It's not "pay or die," it's "pay or go to a different doctor." The reason doctors charge similar prices is because they all had years of student debts to pay off.

You just negated your response.

How So? I'm not following you.

If by your assertion, doctors are charging similar prices then there is no competive pricing for the individual to find affordable health care.

In other words, the consumer either pays or dies.

 

[Moonglow]

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

It's not "pay or die," it's "pay or go to a different doctor." The reason doctors charge similar prices is because they all had years of student debts to pay off.

That, and what is the fair market value of the service or procedure, even based on the skill level and experience. How is that not fair? Outside of Government work, anyway?

market value on my labor has had to decrease because of the recession, when has a doctors ever lowered his?

And if he needs so much to operate, why can the docs go to a foreign country and offer their services for free?

 

[Moonglow]

You just negated your response.

How So? I'm not following you.

If by your assertion, doctors are charging similar prices then there is no competive pricing for the individual to find affordable health care.

In other words, the consumer either pays or dies.

Bingo!!

 

[atlasshrugged]

At the prices that doc's charge and the life they lead in the upper crust of society I can see where the difference between the Hippocratic oath and the want of money have conflicting interest.
Good thing the docs took chickens for payment when their hippocratic oath was more important during the early years of American medicine.

They also did things like leeching and amputations without anesthesia. They took chickens for pay because that's what people were willing to pay. Why should medicine be this Holy profession where we expect doctors to provide everything for us and be poor because of it. These guys go to 8 years of school (4 of which cost $50,000 a year) then they get to work for their first 3-6 years without pay.

The Russians found this out the hard way: when you pay an average salary for a job of above average importance, you can't find to best people to do the job.

 

[atlasshrugged]

You just negated your response.

How So? I'm not following you.

If by your assertion, doctors are charging similar prices then there is no competive pricing for the individual to find affordable health care.

In other words, the consumer either pays or dies.

A fair point. But it's not like these guys meet together and agree on some artificially high price. The original point I made is that what people are willing to pay is equal to the value of the service. If there was anyway for doctors to provide a procedure at a cheaper rate and not lose money, they would do so and undercut their competition. Since nobody seems to be doing this, the cost is pretty well set in stone.

 

[atlasshrugged]

How So? I'm not following you.

If by your assertion, doctors are charging similar prices then there is no competive pricing for the individual to find affordable health care.

In other words, the consumer either pays or dies.

Bingo!!

Then what's your solution? Should the gov step in and tell doctors how much they can charge? Should a doctor be forced to lose money on a procedure? Should tax payers have to refund him/her?

 

[Vidi]

If by your assertion, doctors are charging similar prices then there is no competive pricing for the individual to find affordable health care.

In other words, the consumer either pays or dies.

Bingo!!

Then what's your solution? Should the gov step in and tell doctors how much they can charge? Should a doctor be forced to lose money on a procedure? Should tax payers have to refund him/her?

My solution is a single payer system. I do not believe that people should profit off the misfortune of others, which is what our system is set up to do.

If we went to a single payer system it would mean almost 6 digits a year OUT of my families pocket as my wife works in the Health Insurance field and makes amazing money doing it. And I still believe it is the only long term solution to this particular problem.

 

[MeBelle]

The value of a product is the price people are willing to pay.

What is the product here?

People.

 

[Intense]

Youre incorrect.

When we visit the doctors office, there are many different pricing structures based on what insurance plan we have.

No insurance means you pay the MOST. Insurance plans negotiate deals with physician groups to get a better price.

Its called bulk pricing.

Anedoctally, I was handed a $335 dollar bill for a doctors visit ( and a couple of tests ). When I asked if this was AFTER my insurance, the woman behind the desk said," Oh we dont have your insurance information!" She took it and magically the bill went down to $115 dollars, of which insurance paid 80%.


Also, the whole "price people are willing to pay" argument is completely bogus when it comes to health care. With health care, its "pay it or die".

You should have asked how much if you paid in cash.

The answer was in my post. $335 dollars.

( and yes, I realize that there are some doctors who charge less if you pay in full the day of service )

That will vary from Doctor to Doctor.

 

[Intense]

At the prices that doc's charge and the life they lead in the upper crust of society I can see where the difference between the Hippocratic oath and the want of money have conflicting interest.
Good thing the docs took chickens for payment when their hippocratic oath was more important during the early years of American medicine.

They also did things like leeching and amputations without anesthesia. They took chickens for pay because that's what people were willing to pay. Why should medicine be this Holy profession where we expect doctors to provide everything for us and be poor because of it. These guys go to 8 years of school (4 of which cost $50,000 a year) then they get to work for their first 3-6 years without pay.

The Russians found this out the hard way: when you pay an average salary for a job of above average importance, you can't find to best people to do the job.

Doctors also do Charity work.