Abe Lincoln the hypocrite

[Ernie S.]

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. ... Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit."
Abrahamn Lincoln: 1848 speech in the U.S. House of Representatives, supporting the war with Mexico and the secession of Texas.

Why didn't Lincoln share the same feelings about Southern secession? Following the money might help with an answer. Throughout most of our nation's history, the only sources of federal revenue were excise taxes and tariffs. During the 1850s, tariffs amounted to 90 percent of federal revenue. Southern ports paid 75 percent of tariffs in 1859. What "responsible" politician would let that much revenue go?
Thank you Dr Williams!

 

[Ernie S.]

Part one of Dr. Williams' history lesson:

 

[Moonglow]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

 

[1stRambo]

Part one of Dr. Williams' history lesson:

Yo, Go Free Bird, and Lynyrd Skynyrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"GTP"

 

[Ernie S.]

When you occupy a fort in a foreign country, you can expect some pissed off natives.

 

[Ernie S.]

Part one of Dr. Williams' history lesson:

Yo, Go Free Bird, and Lynyrd Skynyrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"GTP"
View attachment 45460

See my avatar. We stand with our hand over our heart when the band plays "Sweet Home Alabama".

 

[Ernie S.]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

So you didn't read Dr Williams' columns did you?
Afraid of the truth?

 

[BlackFlag]

When you occupy a fort in a foreign country, you can expect some pissed off natives.

Good thing those foreigners couldn't put up much of a fight. They should be ever grateful the North kept a bit of leash on Sherman.

 

[1stRambo]

Yo, if things keep going the way they are going? You "****** LOVING IDIOTS" and "GUN HATING" idiots are going to see the light, get a hint idiots!!!

"GTP"

 

[Moonglow]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

So you didn't read Dr Williams' columns did you?
Afraid of the truth?

I read it, but yet again, when you start a war, don't ***** for 165 years about losing...

 

[Moonglow]

Yo, if things keep going the way they are going? You "****** LOVING IDIOTS" and "GUN HATING" idiots are going to see the light, get a hint idiots!!!

"GTP"

Oh no..

 

[Ernie S.]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

So you didn't read Dr Williams' columns did you?
Afraid of the truth?

I read it, but yet again, when you start a war, don't ***** for 165 years about losing...

1. The Confederacy didn't want a war.
2. 13 years earlier, Lincoln supported Texas' right to secede.
3. Lincoln wanted the tariffs from Southern ports.
4. He didn't remove his troops from a foreign country.
5. He provoked the Confederacy into shelling Sumter by attempting to resupply and reinforce it.
6. He proclaimed the slaves of a foreign country emancipated but did not end slavery in Northern slave states.
Yeah I grew up in New England and was taught history from the North's perspective. I really didn't know any better either until I did some independent study.
There is hope for you too, unless you're as hypocritical as Mr Lincoln.

 

[Debra K]

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. ... Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit."
Abrahamn Lincoln: 1848 speech in the U.S. House of Representatives, supporting the war with Mexico and the secession of Texas.

Why didn't Lincoln share the same feelings about Southern secession? Following the money might help with an answer. Throughout most of our nation's history, the only sources of federal revenue were excise taxes and tariffs. During the 1850s, tariffs amounted to 90 percent of federal revenue. Southern ports paid 75 percent of tariffs in 1859. What "responsible" politician would let that much revenue go?
Thank you Dr Williams!

You have misrepresented the context of Lincoln's speech.

The Texas revolution (secession from Mexico) did not take place in 1848.

The Texans declared their independence from Mexico on March 2, 1836, during Santa Anna's siege of the Alamo.

The United States officially recognized the Republic of Texas in 1837 and annexation took place in 1845.

The Mexican-American War commenced in 1846 and was ignited by an alleged border dispute. Where exactly was the border between Texas and Mexico?

What began as a border dispute ... or alleged border dispute ... ended up with the United States acquiring a huge chunk of Mexico's territory, (which today consists of California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico) helping to fulfill President Polk's belief in America's "manifest destiny".

The 1848 speech you're referring to is the speech Lincoln gave laying out the facts he relied on to conclude President Bush's ... er ... I mean, President Polk's justifications for the war were fabricated. President Polk could not establish that the first shots were fired by Mexicans upon U.S. military personnel on U.S. soil. It appears that President Polk sent U.S. military forces into the disputed border area where Mexicans resided in order to pick a fight for ulterior purposes.

The small part of the speech that you took out of context does not establish that Lincoln is a hypocrite. The part you quoted, even when taken out of context, shows that Lincoln believed that people occupying a particular territory had the right to throw off an existing government--if they have the power to do so--and govern themselves. Lincoln, however, was disturbed that Polk kept applying to Congress for more money to fund the war when the justifications for commencing the war in the first place were suspect and Polk had already acquired much of what was indisputably Mexican territory by force. When was the war going to end? How much more of Mexico's territory did Polk seek to take before it was enough?

See
The War With Mexico: Speech in the United States House of Representatives
Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

The War With Mexico Speech in the United States House of Representatives Teaching American History

Excerpt:

The war has gone on some twenty months; for the expenses of which, together with an inconsiderable old score, the President now claims about one half of the Mexican territory, and that by far the better half, so far as concerns our ability to make any thing out of it. It is comparatively uninhabited; so that we could establish land offices in it, and raise some money in that way. But the other half is already inhabited, as I understand it, tolerably densely for the nature of the country; and all its lands, or all that are valuable, already appropriated as private property. How, then, are we to make any thing out of these lands with this encumbrance on them, or how remove the encumbrance? I suppose no one will say we should kill the people, or drive them out, or make slaves of them, or even confiscate their property? How, then, can we make much out of this part of the territory? If the prosecution of the war has, in expenses, already equalled the better half of the country, how long its future prosecution will be in equaling the less valuable half is not a speculative, but a practical question, pressing closely upon us; And yet it is a question which the President seems to never have thought of.

As to the mode of terminating the war and securing peace, the President is equally wandering and indefinite....​

 

[Syriusly]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

So you didn't read Dr Williams' columns did you?
Afraid of the truth?

I read it, but yet again, when you start a war, don't ***** for 165 years about losing...

1. The Confederacy didn't want a war.
2. 13 years earlier, Lincoln supported Texas' right to secede.
3. Lincoln wanted the tariffs from Southern ports.
4. He didn't remove his troops from a foreign country.
5. He provoked the Confederacy into shelling Sumter by attempting to resupply and reinforce it.
6. He proclaimed the slaves of a foreign country emancipated but did not end slavery in Northern slave states.
Yeah I grew up in New England and was taught history from the North's perspective. I really didn't know any better either until I did some independent study.
There is hope for you too, unless you're as hypocritical as Mr Lincoln.

1) The Confederacy had been planning on the possibility of war for years- and fired the first shots. If they really didn't want war- they could have not fired that first cannon.
2) 13 years earlier Lincoln supported Texas right to secede from Mexico- but didn't support the right to secede under our Constitution.
3) Lincoln supported the tariffs that were on all imports on all ports.
4) Lincoln didn't remove American troops from an American fort in rebel territory.
5) Lincoln didn't force South Carolina to fire on American troops- they made the decision to start the war that day.
6) Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation under his orders as Commander in Chief putting down a rebellion- he had not authority to free the slaves in the slave states that were not in rebellion.
7) Lincoln however proposed a plan of compensated emancipation for Maryland's slaves, but the State of Maryland rejected it- and ultimately those slaves were emancipated under the 13th Amendment
8) Lincoln was also instrumental in the passage of the 13th Amendment
Great American History Thirteenth Amendment-
It was then that President Abraham Lincoln took an active role in pushing it through congress. He insisted that the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment be added to the Republican party platform for the upcoming presidential elections. He used all of his political skill and influence to convince additional democrats to support the amendments' passage. His efforts finally met with success, when the House passed the bill in January 1865 with a vote of 119-56. Finally, Lincoln supported those congressmen that insisted southern state legislatures must adopt the Thirteenth Amendment before their states would be allowed to return with full rights to Congress.
9) The Confederate Slaves seceded in order to protect their slave property. We know that Lincoln's actions resulted in the end of legal slavery in the United States. Without Lincoln- there might still be Confederate slave owning states.

Maybe Lincoln was a hypocrite- but his actions as President led ultimately the freedom of all slaves in the United States.

 

[Ernie S.]

Then I guess neither of you read parts 1 and 2 of Dr Williams' essay. OK

There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession and at least 4 states, in their own Constitutions, reserve that right.

"6) Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation under his orders as Commander in Chief putting down a rebellion- he had not authority to free the slaves in the slave states that were not in rebellion."

He had no authority to free slaves in a foreign country.
Let's say the President of Mexico declared that all illegal immigrants in the US were conferred US citizenship. Would that be binding; or even logical?

 

[Syriusly]

Then I guess neither of you read parts 1 and 2 of Dr Williams' essay. OK

There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession and at least 4 states, in their own Constitutions, reserve that right.

"6) Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation under his orders as Commander in Chief putting down a rebellion- he had not authority to free the slaves in the slave states that were not in rebellion."

He had no authority to free slaves in a foreign country.
Let's say the President of Mexico declared that all illegal immigrants in the US were conferred US citizenship. Would that be binding; or even logical?

There never was a foreign country. There were states in rebellion. But- as Commander in Chief- even if the territory was a foreign country that had attacked the United States, as the Confederates had, Lincoln would have been within his authority as commander in Chief to emancipate those slaves to deny their labor to the enemy.

But of course that is moot since the fighting all took place in the United States.

 

[Debra K]

Fort,,,Sumter..........When you start a shootin' war, don't ***** if you lose....

So you didn't read Dr Williams' columns did you?
Afraid of the truth?

I read it, but yet again, when you start a war, don't ***** for 165 years about losing...

1. The Confederacy didn't want a war.

No one wanted a civil war. Lincoln personally did not want a war. He wanted to prevent the spread of slavery to territories and new states. Read his entire speech at this link to understand his views on the subject:

Seventh Debate Alton Illinois - Lincoln Home National Historic Site U.S. National Park Service

2. 13 years earlier, Lincoln supported Texas' right to secede.

You have your facts wrong ... read my previous post on the subject. Lincoln supported a people's right to throw off an old government and create a new government if they have the power to do so ... but they also take the risk that the "old government" might not agree and might be more powerful and might use force to quash a rebellion.

3. Lincoln wanted the tariffs from Southern ports.

I'm rolling my eyes at you. You're seriously arguing that Lincoln was willing to sacrifice the lives of several hundred thousand people in bloody battle, and have billions of dollars worth of property destroyed in a devastating war just because he wanted some tariff money? Delusional ... but you're entitled to believe whatever nonsense that tickles your fancy.

4. He didn't remove his troops from a foreign country.

The South Carolina governor sent a letter to President James Buchanan demanding the federal government give up the forts in Charleston Harbor. President Buchanan said the forts were the property of the United States and it was his constitutional duty to preserve and protect the forts.

South Carolina was not a "foreign country". The United States of America did not consent to the secession of any states and the rebels did not have the power to enforce their unilateral declarations of secession.

5. He provoked the Confederacy into shelling Sumter by attempting to resupply and reinforce it.

James Buchanan was the President of the United States and Buchanan attempted to resupply Fort Sumter. On January 1, 1961, President Buchanan ordered that a civilian supply ship be sent to Fort Sumter. According to records, the S.S. Star of the West -- loaded with munitions, supplies, and 250 soldiers -- attempted a peaceful entry into Charleston Harbor during the early morning of January 9, 1961. The ship was fired upon by the Carolinians and was forced to turn back.

Abe Lincoln's inauguration took place on March 4, 1861. In his inauguration speech, Lincoln said: "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." He also said: "In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend it."


Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

6. He proclaimed the slaves of a foreign country emancipated but did not end slavery in Northern slave states.

Abraham Lincoln followed the Law of Nations, which allows a nation at war to free the slaves of his enemy. Lincoln had no authority to free the slaves in the states that did not join the confederacy and take up arms against the United States. Slavery was not prohibited throughout the land until the adoption of the Thirteenth Amendment.

Yeah I grew up in New England and was taught history from the North's perspective. I really didn't know any better either until I did some independent study.
There is hope for you too, unless you're as hypocritical as Mr Lincoln.

Mr. Lincoln was not a hypocrite. I think you should engage in additional study.

 

[Ernie S.]

Then I guess neither of you read parts 1 and 2 of Dr Williams' essay. OK

There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession and at least 4 states, in their own Constitutions, reserve that right.

"6) Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation under his orders as Commander in Chief putting down a rebellion- he had not authority to free the slaves in the slave states that were not in rebellion."

He had no authority to free slaves in a foreign country.
Let's say the President of Mexico declared that all illegal immigrants in the US were conferred US citizenship. Would that be binding; or even logical?

There never was a foreign country. There were states in rebellion. But- as Commander in Chief- even if the territory was a foreign country that had attacked the United States, as the Confederates had, Lincoln would have been within his authority as commander in Chief to emancipate those slaves to deny their labor to the enemy.

But of course that is moot since the fighting all took place in the United States.

There is no constitutional prohibition to secession, so, once the 7 southern states left the union, they were in essence, a separate country and no longer subject to Lincoln's tyranny.

 

[Ernie S.]

The majority of of revenue collected by the US in 1860 was from tariffs 75% of those tariffs were collected at Southern ports. Lincoln knew the Union would go broke without those tariffs.
To make up for lost revenue and pay for the war, Lincoln instituted the first tax on income. That tax continued until 1872 when it was declared unconstitutional
So.... Lincoln refused to pull troops out of a foreign country. He forced secessionist States to rejoin the Union without the constitutional power to do so. AND he instituted an unconstitutional tax to pay for it.

I should engage in additional study??????

Suppose you show me where, in the US Constitution it says States are prohibited from leaving the republic.

If you can do that, I will concede that I need additional study, OK?