A Tea Party Wants Mandatory Christmas Carols In Public Schools

[Yurt]

no surprise ravi came back to this thread and skipped any debate....

157

 

[Foxfyre]

....or the rotten Teabaggers...

they aren't they are pushing back from those who try to dominate.. btw,, did I tell ya your nose is cute?

.... see the media spin has it that Rudolph was a friggin reindeer but everyone knows he was a grumpy red nosed hard drinking coyote

Well whatever floats your boat, but I have it on excellent authority that Rudolph was a GIRL reindeer. Don't know what she drank though.

Sorry folks.

Now back to our regularly scheduled feud.

 

[NYcarbineer]

what is with the logical fallacy of others pointing to other religions as some sort of debate point on this topic? it is a false analogy, and a red herring. when those religions have a national holiday, then you have a point. as it stands, christmas is a national holiday. and you libs, the so called supporters of freedom etc....don't want freedom when it comes to allowing the community/students to choose whether to sing carols or not. if you guys truly don't care, then what difference does it make to you if the admin chooses or the community/students choose?

in reality, it doesn't. and so far, no one has offered a single rational reason why the inititiave is harmful and how it could possibly violate the 1st amendment, given that christmas is a national holiday.

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

 

[Ravi]

no surprise ravi came back to this thread and skipped any debate....

157

I gave up responding to stupidity for Lent and never looked back.

 

[Yurt]

what is with the logical fallacy of others pointing to other religions as some sort of debate point on this topic? it is a false analogy, and a red herring. when those religions have a national holiday, then you have a point. as it stands, christmas is a national holiday. and you libs, the so called supporters of freedom etc....don't want freedom when it comes to allowing the community/students to choose whether to sing carols or not. if you guys truly don't care, then what difference does it make to you if the admin chooses or the community/students choose?

in reality, it doesn't. and so far, no one has offered a single rational reason why the inititiave is harmful and how it could possibly violate the 1st amendment, given that christmas is a national holiday.

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

LOL....

do you have point about reading the proposition? you keep saying this, yet offer no reason why? hey, go stick your tongue on an ice cold pole....tell me what happens.....

my point is not a logical fallacy....you clearly have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is....so tell me....what specific logical fallacy is it?

 

[Foxfyre]

what is with the logical fallacy of others pointing to other religions as some sort of debate point on this topic? it is a false analogy, and a red herring. when those religions have a national holiday, then you have a point. as it stands, christmas is a national holiday. and you libs, the so called supporters of freedom etc....don't want freedom when it comes to allowing the community/students to choose whether to sing carols or not. if you guys truly don't care, then what difference does it make to you if the admin chooses or the community/students choose?

in reality, it doesn't. and so far, no one has offered a single rational reason why the inititiave is harmful and how it could possibly violate the 1st amendment, given that christmas is a national holiday.

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

LOL....

do you have point about reading the proposition? you keep saying this, yet offer no reason why? hey, go stick your tongue on an ice cold pole....tell me what happens.....

my point is not a logical fallacy....you clearly have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is....so tell me....what specific logical fallacy is it?

Hang in there Yurt. Make them explain how singing a traditional Christmas carol, something that has been part of the American history, culture, and heritage for decades if not centuries now, violates separation of Church and State assuming that there has ever been a separation of Church and State? How does that in any way 'establish' or even 'promote' a religion? Does learning German or Austrian or Swiss or Mexican folk songs promote allegiance to those countries? Does singing about Rolling on the River or Working on the Railroad promote certain industires or encourage kids to engage in certain activities?

And make them explain how forbidding recognition of Christmas is not violating the First Amendment clause that says the government may not disallow free speech or prevent the free exercise of religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[Yurt]

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

LOL....

do you have point about reading the proposition? you keep saying this, yet offer no reason why? hey, go stick your tongue on an ice cold pole....tell me what happens.....

my point is not a logical fallacy....you clearly have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is....so tell me....what specific logical fallacy is it?

Hang in there Yurt. Make them explain how singing a traditional Christmas carol, something that has been part of the American history, culture, and heritage for decades if not centuries now, violates separation of Church and State assuming that there has ever been a separation of Church and State? How does that in any way 'establish' or even 'promote' a religion? Does learning German or Austrian or Swiss or Mexican folk songs promote allegiance to those countries? Does singing about Rolling on the River or Working on the Railroad promote certain industires or encourage kids to engage in certain activities?

And make them explain how forbidding recognition of Christmas is not violating the First Amendment clause that says the government may not disallow free speech or prevent the free exercise of religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

excellent point

 

[Yurt]

no surprise ravi came back to this thread and skipped any debate....

157

I gave up responding to stupidity for Lent and never looked back.

translation:

manifold is right....i always run away and never answer questions that might prove me wrong.....

wow...i may have to give some props to manifold...this is at least two times today he predicted you would run away from the debate....

i thought you one to actually debate ravi.....don't tell me manifold is right....and please.....answer with a debate, not a quip

 

[Darkwind]

If you are subject to litigation if you don't provide the opportunity then yes, it is mandatory.

Do you think school children should be given the opportunity to listen to my voodoo songs else the school is subject to litigation?

wrong....the title says "mandatory christmas carols"....that is a lie...it wants the opportunity....

given that christmas is a national holiday, your point about voodoo songs is irrelevant....we have an entire christmas holiday, a season....yet people can't sing carols about christmas and somehow allowing them the opportunity is making mandatory.....weird

No, you are incorrect. If you have to face litigation for not doing something it is mandatory. We have a national holiday for Christmas...the little devils aren't even in school. This entire thing is an effort by the teapartiers to get the government to push their agenda.

That is incorrect.

They face litigation if they do not provide an opportunity. They do not have to participate and in fact, according to the SCOTUS, the schools cannot participate.

However, setting aside a room to allow children to sing Christmas songs is not making it mandatory. It is simply setting aside a room.

I suggest the use the room in which the teachers gather to discuss how best to brainwash the nations youth.

 

[Modbert]

As if your opinion was the be all and end all of everything and as if your idealogy has any legs to get you pass the next couple of years. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion but I am saying is that finding those that support your opinion will become harder and harder. Essentially, you will be all alone shouting what you believe while no one else will care.

Goodbye

I think Libertarians are on the rise.

You know, people who act like real Conservatives. Unlike the people you likely support.

 

[Vast LWC]

So, let me get this straight.

When a school "Provides students with the opportunity" to sing about popular political figures, that's "indoctrination".

But when a school "Provides students with the opportunity" to sing about a popular religious figure, that's "freedom"?

Very interesting point of view right-wingers seem to have.

What exactly does "providing an opportunity" mean, anyway?

Does it mean devoting space at the school and manpower to oversee the children who are singing Christmas Carols?

Because that would be specifically using public funding for a religious purpose.

 

[Vast LWC]

That is incorrect.

They face litigation if they do not provide an opportunity. They do not have to participate and in fact, according to the SCOTUS, the schools cannot participate.

However, setting aside a room to allow children to sing Christmas songs is not making it mandatory. It is simply setting aside a room.

I suggest the use the room in which the teachers gather to discuss how best to brainwash the nations youth.

Setting aside a room and providing oversight costs funds. Unless there are unpaid volunteers available with unused space, then that is using public funding for religious uses.

Even if there are unpaid volunteers available, the school would still be liable for any accident or injury occurring during said time set aside, as well as the hourly cost of the space.


Mandating that resources be made available for such a purpose is unconstitutional.

 

[Ravi]

wrong....the title says "mandatory christmas carols"....that is a lie...it wants the opportunity....

given that christmas is a national holiday, your point about voodoo songs is irrelevant....we have an entire christmas holiday, a season....yet people can't sing carols about christmas and somehow allowing them the opportunity is making mandatory.....weird

No, you are incorrect. If you have to face litigation for not doing something it is mandatory. We have a national holiday for Christmas...the little devils aren't even in school. This entire thing is an effort by the teapartiers to get the government to push their agenda.

That is incorrect.

They face litigation if they do not provide an opportunity. They do not have to participate and in fact, according to the SCOTUS, the schools cannot participate.

However, setting aside a room to allow children to sing Christmas songs is not making it mandatory. It is simply setting aside a room.

I suggest the use the room in which the teachers gather to discuss how best to brainwash the nations youth.

 

[NYcarbineer]

wrong....the title says "mandatory christmas carols"....that is a lie...it wants the opportunity....

given that christmas is a national holiday, your point about voodoo songs is irrelevant....we have an entire christmas holiday, a season....yet people can't sing carols about christmas and somehow allowing them the opportunity is making mandatory.....weird

No, you are incorrect. If you have to face litigation for not doing something it is mandatory. We have a national holiday for Christmas...the little devils aren't even in school. This entire thing is an effort by the teapartiers to get the government to push their agenda.

That is incorrect.

They face litigation if they do not provide an opportunity. They do not have to participate and in fact, according to the SCOTUS, the schools cannot participate.

However, setting aside a room to allow children to sing Christmas songs is not making it mandatory. It is simply setting aside a room.

I suggest the use the room in which the teachers gather to discuss how best to brainwash the nations youth.

That is not what the proposition says.

 

[Zona]

I think people in America are sick and tired of being shoved around by the lunatics on the left. That's what the tea party uprisings are all about. Funny though,, the left barely noticed them at first.. They said maybe a "thousand" showed up in Wash. and barry left town,, "I don't know who these people are." what has changed?

I remember seeing the tea baggers for the first time. I remember them having signs about taxes. Higher taxes.


The interesting thing is, 95% of them at that time were getting tax breaks. The only ones with higher taxes were the ones who organized the event.

That was funny to me.

 

[NYcarbineer]

what is with the logical fallacy of others pointing to other religions as some sort of debate point on this topic? it is a false analogy, and a red herring. when those religions have a national holiday, then you have a point. as it stands, christmas is a national holiday. and you libs, the so called supporters of freedom etc....don't want freedom when it comes to allowing the community/students to choose whether to sing carols or not. if you guys truly don't care, then what difference does it make to you if the admin chooses or the community/students choose?

in reality, it doesn't. and so far, no one has offered a single rational reason why the inititiave is harmful and how it could possibly violate the 1st amendment, given that christmas is a national holiday.

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

LOL....

do you have point about reading the proposition? you keep saying this, yet offer no reason why? hey, go stick your tongue on an ice cold pole....tell me what happens.....

my point is not a logical fallacy....you clearly have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is....so tell me....what specific logical fallacy is it?

It's a red herring. Christmas being a national holiday does not earn Christianity special treatment in unrelated matters of church and state.

And I'm curious, if you haven't read the actual proposition, how can you argue for or against it?

 

[Coyote]

in reality, it doesn't. and so far, no one has offered a single rational reason why the inititiave is harmful and how it could possibly violate the 1st amendment, given that christmas is a national holiday.

There is no reason for it. Why do you need unnecessary laws? That's the first rational reason.

Second - what rational reason do you have to create this new law when there is no law preventing the singing of carols in the first place?

Third - how are you going to handle the demands of other religions for equal time? Sure, you say it's a "fallacy" but is it? You neatly sidestep ever answering.

 

[Coyote]

Your logical fallacy is that somehow Christmas being a national holiday exempts Christianity from the relevant issues of separation of church and state.

And for the third time, I suggest you all read the proposition.

LOL....

do you have point about reading the proposition? you keep saying this, yet offer no reason why? hey, go stick your tongue on an ice cold pole....tell me what happens.....

my point is not a logical fallacy....you clearly have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is....so tell me....what specific logical fallacy is it?

Hang in there Yurt. Make them explain how singing a traditional Christmas carol, something that has been part of the American history, culture, and heritage for decades if not centuries now, violates separation of Church and State assuming that there has ever been a separation of Church and State? How does that in any way 'establish' or even 'promote' a religion? Does learning German or Austrian or Swiss or Mexican folk songs promote allegiance to those countries? Does singing about Rolling on the River or Working on the Railroad promote certain industires or encourage kids to engage in certain activities?

And make them explain how forbidding recognition of Christmas is not violating the First Amendment clause that says the government may not disallow free speech or prevent the free exercise of religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

While you're at it have them explain the law that bans them from singing Christmas carols and the law that forbids them from recognizing Christmas.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's more than just 'providing an opportunity' the way that's being implied:

"(a) Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide
opportunities to its pupils for listening to or performing Christmas music at an
appropriate time ofyear. The appreciation or performance ofthe Christmas music may
be incorporated into the subject matter of an arts or social studies class, presented for
cultural enrichment during a school assembly, or both."

They are saying the schools must make it part of a curriculum, or staged as an event, or both.

 

[Yurt]

It's more than just 'providing an opportunity' the way that's being implied:

"(a) Each public elementary and secondary school shall provide
opportunities to its pupils for listening to or performing Christmas music at an
appropriate time ofyear. The appreciation or performance ofthe Christmas music maybe incorporated into the subject matter of an arts or social studies class, presented for
cultural enrichment during a school assembly, or both."

They are saying the schools must make it part of a curriculum, or staged as an event, or both.

you're lying....it says may, not must liar....