A successful shift in legal tactics to class action suits has the desired result.

You can be as crass as you want, it just lowers the quality of your posting.

So feel free to retreat to negative posting.

WW
If I may.....you ******* retarded Marxist Leninist zombie ASSHOLES are PATHETIC.
You cannot win the will of the People.
Your constant SOVIET LAWFARE BULLSHIT is only going to set the deteriorating Democratic Party further into the depths of obsolescence.
Never change.
Never stop.
:113:
 
You can be as crass as you want, it just lowers the quality of your posting.

So feel free to retreat to negative posting.

WW
I will do no such thing. If the word "nonsense" is enough to offend your sensibilities, then you are wearing your feelings on your sleeve for all to see. That is for you to handle, not me.
 
This is incorrect. With Class Action Certification the judge can then issued a preliminary nationwide injunction which halts the conduct to prevent harm. Then with additional briefings the judge can either release the preliminary injunction or convert it to a permeant injunction.

After that the long road of litigation and appeals continues until it is either accepted or rejected by the SCOTUS for review.

WW
That's exactly what I'm saying... I believe people( is: (officials office holders people in authority in other districts) will simply ignore those attempted injunctions based on the most recent definition of limited district ruling. It will be up to the judge to challenge it not the people affected by the misguided judgments being used in a perverse way. What's the judge going to do? He certainly is not going to summons anyone from outside his district to appear before him with any kind of success.
 
I think what you're going to see is a movement of people who will utilize the restricted district ruling to simply ignore attempts by judges from outside of their district to have any control over what's not in their district. I mean what is the judge going to do? Take them to court?

Yes.

They are called contempt proceedings and can be either criminal or civil.

The Judge can also refer officials that are attorney's to their state bar association for disciplinary action which can result in the revocation of the individuals law license and ability to function as an attorney. Which might not be so important to someone like a Fox News Reporter turned Secretary of Defense, but will matter a lot to DOJ attorneys that have to function in court during and administration or which to continue their law career after leaving with a change of administration.

WW
 
Yes.

They are called contempt proceedings and can be either criminal or civil.

The Judge can also refer officials that are attorney's to their state bar association for disciplinary action which can result in the revocation of the individuals law license and ability to function as an attorney. Which might not be so important to someone like a Fox News Reporter turned Secretary of Defense, but will matter a lot to DOJ attorneys that have to function in court during and administration or which to continue their law career after leaving with a change of administration.

WW
You're missing the point.... the supreme Court just chopped some of the wing feathers off of the rogue judges for precisely this kind of behavior.

I say let them try it.... Nothing prevents those affected from going to their own district judge and having such things nullified. You seem to be missing the point behind the word district. There's only one supreme Court and therefore only one set of justices can enact a nationwide ban on anything.
 
That's exactly what I'm saying I believe people will simply ignore those attempted injunctions based on the most recent definition of limited district ruling. It will be up to the judge to challenge it not the people affected by the misguided judgments being used in a perverse way.

I don't get up to the judge to challenge, judges don't appeal. Plaintiffs and Respondents appeal a judged ruling.

What's the judge going to do? He certainly is not going to summons anyone from outside his district to appear before him with any kind of success.

As Justice Kavanaugh and Sotomayor pointed out, in the recent ruling. Class Actions are the way it's SUPPOSED to proceed because their is a higher bar under Rule 23 for Class Actions.

So in the case of birthright citizenship EO challenges, that's exactly what they did. The followed the SOCTUS recommendation.

WW
 
You're missing the point the supreme Court just chop some of the wing feathers off of the rogue judges for precisely this kind of behavior.
I say let them try it.... Nothing prevents them from going to their own district judge and having such things nullified. You seem to be missing the point behind the word district.
There are always ways around these rulings. Always.
 
You're missing the point.... the supreme Court just chopped some of the wing feathers off of the rogue judges for precisely this kind of behavior.

Agreed. "Some feathers" through, not all.

They pointed out specifically that Class Actions were still viable and that was the proper way to proceed.

The they did.

The other method the SCOTUS left open was for States to challenge unconstitutional EOs as they pointed out their ruling only applied to regular plaintiffs, not States as the challenging party. So here we have 29 States that have joined together to challenged the EO.

I say let them try it.... Nothing prevents those affected from going to their own district judge and having such things nullified. You seem to be missing the point behind the word district. There's only one supreme Court and therefore only one set of justices can enact a nationwide ban on anything.

One Federal Judge can't "nullify" the Class Action Status of another Judge.

WW
 
I don't get up to the judge to challenge, judges don't appeal. Plaintiffs and Respondents appeal a judged ruling.



As Justice Kavanaugh and Sotomayor pointed out, in the recent ruling. Class Actions are the way it's SUPPOSED to proceed because their is a higher bar under Rule 23 for Class Actions.

So in the case of birthright citizenship EO challenges, that's exactly what they did. The followed the SOCTUS recommendation.

WW
Sure you get it..... The judge will issue an arrest warrant which will probably be ignored once it's over his district line. I believe you're going to see a pattern of pushback against an imperial judiciary which has unfortunately evolved into a construct a very bad habits over the decades that they were allowed to operate in such a rogue manner.
 
As Justice Kavanaugh and Sotomayor pointed out, in the recent ruling. Class Actions are the way it's SUPPOSED to proceed because their is a higher bar under Rule 23 for Class Actions.
However, the ruling is made on existing law and interpretation. What really matters is when the court rules on the merits of the case the Administration brought before it regarding birthright citizenship.
 
Furthermore, this is what Grok says on the matter.

Me: Now, pretend you are a plaintiff, suing at the SCOTUS against the jus soli nature of the 14th Amendment. How would you make your case to the justices? What argument would you make to ensure success on the merits?


As a plaintiff challenging the jus soli (citizenship by birth on U.S. soil) nature of the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause before the U.S. Supreme Court, my goal would be to argue that the clause’s application to children of undocumented immigrants exceeds the original intent of the framers and should be reinterpreted to exclude such cases, prioritizing a jus sanguinis (citizenship by descent) framework or requiring parental legal status. Below, I present a legal argument designed to persuade the Court, focusing on constitutional text, original intent, historical context, and policy considerations, while addressing potential counterarguments to maximize success on the merits.

Plaintiff’s Argument Before the Supreme Court

Case: [Plaintiff] v. United States

Issue:


Whether the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause, granting citizenship to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” extends to children born in the U.S. to undocumented immigrants, or whether “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” should be interpreted to exclude such children, requiring at least one parent to be a U.S. citizen or legal resident.

Mr. Chief Justice and Honorable Justices: The 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause was never intended to confer automatic citizenship on children of undocumented immigrants. The current interpretation, rooted in United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), misreads the clause’s text and the framers’ intent, creating a policy that undermines national sovereignty and incentivizes illegal immigration. I respectfully urge the Court to reinterpret “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” to exclude children of undocumented immigrants, aligning citizenship with allegiance to the United States and restoring the amendment’s original purpose.

1. Original Intent of the 14th Amendment

The 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868, was crafted to secure citizenship for freed slaves and their descendants, overturning Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857). Congressional debates in the 39th Congress, as recorded in the Congressional Globe (1866), demonstrate that the framers focused on ensuring citizenship for those with clear ties to the U.S., not on granting universal birthright citizenship.
  • Senator Jacob Howard’s Statement: Senator Howard, a primary drafter, stated that the Citizenship Clause “will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.” The inclusion of “foreigners, aliens” alongside diplomats suggests an intent to limit citizenship to those with legal ties to the U.S., excluding those whose presence or allegiance lies elsewhere.
  • Context of Reconstruction: The amendment addressed the urgent need to protect freed slaves, who were born in the U.S. and owed allegiance to it, from state disenfranchisement. Undocumented immigrants, who enter in violation of federal law, lack the legal or allegiant connection the framers envisioned. Extending citizenship to their children stretches the clause beyond its historical purpose.
2. Interpretation of “Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof.”

The phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” is the crux of this case. The Court in Wong Kim Ark interpreted it to mean mere physical presence and subjection to U.S. laws, granting citizenship to a child of legally resident Chinese parents. However, this interpretation fails to account for the political and legal allegiance inherent in “jurisdiction.”
  • Jurisdiction as Allegiance: In 1866, “jurisdiction” implied more than territorial presence; it required political allegiance to the U.S. Undocumented immigrants, by entering illegally, demonstrate primary allegiance to a foreign nation, as they are subject to deportation under federal law (8 U.S.C. § 1227). Their children, born to parents who owe no legal allegiance to the U.S., should not automatically inherit citizenship, as they fall outside the framers’ understanding of “jurisdiction.”
  • Comparison to Exemptions: The framers explicitly excluded children of diplomats and foreign invaders, who owe allegiance to foreign governments and are immune from U.S. legal authority. Undocumented immigrants, while subject to some U.S. laws (e.g., criminal law), are not fully within U.S. jurisdiction due to their unlawful status and potential deportation. This partial subjection warrants their exclusion from the Citizenship Clause’s scope.
3. Distinguishing Wong Kim Ark

Wong Kim Ark (1898) is distinguishable and should not control this case. The plaintiff in that case was born to legally resident Chinese parents, who were domiciled in the U.S. and subject to its laws without the threat of deportation. Undocumented immigrants, by contrast, lack legal domicile and are subject to removal, undermining their jurisdictional tie to the U.S. The Court in Wong Kim Ark did not address illegal immigration, a modern phenomenon absent in 1868 or 1898. Extending its holding to children of undocumented immigrants is an overreach that ignores the framers’ intent and the unique legal status of unlawful entrants.

4. Policy Consequences of Jus Soli

The current jus soli interpretation creates perverse incentives and undermines immigration law:
  • Incentivizing Illegal Immigration: Automatic citizenship for children of undocumented immigrants encourages illegal border crossings, as parents seek to secure U.S. citizenship for their offspring (often termed “anchor babies”). This burdens public resources and circumvents congressional authority over immigration (Art. I, § 8, cl. 4).
  • Inconsistency with Jus Sanguinis: U.S. law grants citizenship to children born abroad to U.S. citizens under strict conditions (e.g., parental residency requirements, 8 U.S.C. § 1401). It is illogical to impose stringent requirements on citizens’ children while granting automatic citizenship to children of undocumented immigrants, who lack legal ties to the U.S.
  • Sovereignty Concerns: Unrestricted jus soli dilutes national sovereignty by allowing individuals who violate U.S. law to confer citizenship on their children, undermining the government’s ability to control its borders and define its citizenry.
5. Proposed Interpretation

I urge the Court to reinterpret “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” to require that at least one parent be a U.S. citizen or legal resident at the time of a child’s birth. This aligns with:
  • Framers’ Intent: Focusing citizenship on those with legal and allegiant ties to the U.S., consistent with the amendment’s purpose of protecting freed slaves.
  • Modern Context: Addressing illegal immigration, a challenge unforeseen in 1868, while preserving jus soli for children of citizens and legal residents.
  • International Norms: Many countries (e.g., Germany, India) condition citizenship on parental status, avoiding the statelessness concern by allowing limited jus soli for those who would otherwise lack citizenship.
This interpretation does not require overturning Wong Kim Ark but narrows its scope to legal residents, respecting both precedent and original intent.

6. Countering Anticipated Counterarguments.
  • Counterargument: Broad Language of the 14th Amendment: Opponents may argue that the clause’s plain text (“all persons born”) and “person” in the Equal Protection Clause require universal jus soli. Response: The text must be read in its historical context, where “jurisdiction” implied legal allegiance, not mere presence. The Equal Protection Clause applies to “persons” for legal protections, not citizenship, which is governed by the narrower Citizenship Clause.
  • Counterargument: Stare Decisis and Wong Kim Ark: Opponents may claim that overturning or narrowing Wong Kim Ark disrupts settled law. Response: Wong Kim Ark addressed legal residents, not undocumented immigrants. A narrow reinterpretation respects stare decisis while adapting to modern immigration realities, consistent with the Court’s duty to clarify constitutional meaning.
  • Counterargument: Risk of Statelessness: Excluding children of undocumented immigrants could leave some stateless if their parents’ country does not grant citizenship. Response: Congress can address this through legislation granting conditional status or citizenship to avoid statelessness, as other nations do, without mandating automatic citizenship.
7. Conclusion

The 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause was intended to secure citizenship for freed slaves, not to reward illegal immigration. The phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” excludes children of undocumented immigrants, whose parents lack legal allegiance to the U.S. The current jus soli interpretation, extended beyond Wong Kim Ark’s context, undermines sovereignty and fairness. I respectfully request that the Court reinterpret the clause to require at least one citizen or legal resident parent, aligning citizenship with allegiance and resolving the inconsistency with jus sanguinis. This ensures the 14th Amendment serves its original purpose while addressing modern challenges.
If you can continue your A/I chat on the topic, can you ask A/I a couple of more questions?

Who were the "illegal immigrants" at the time of the 14th that A/I says were excluded from 'all persons under the jurisdiction'?

How was citizenship gained by all the foreigners coming here to live, at the time of the 14th?

Were their children born on our soil being natural born citizens incentive for these foreign immigrants to come to America, regardless of their own status?

----------
In Wong, his parents did not have a Visa or get permission to come here legally.....they simply came here, like all other foreigners....no one stopped them at the border...there was no such thing as legal or illegal status at that the time of the 14th....the only people not accepted when landing here were the disabled and the sick and the mentally ill perhaps? But even those immigrant limitations came later....I believe?

The reason Wong was denied citizenship on his second return here from China, was at that time, the Chinese Exclusion Act had been passed, denying the immigrant Chinese of citizenship etc....so, they tried to stop Wong claiming he was not a citizen because he was Chinese...courts ruled he was a citizen at birth, at the time he was born....is my understanding?
 
Agreed. "Some" through.

They pointed out specifically that Class Actions were still viable and that was the proper way to proceed.

The they did.



One Federal Judge can't "nullify" the Class Action Status of another Judge.

WW
Oh I beg to differ.... Not only can they do that I believe you're going to see it start happening as soon as now.
 
If you can continue your A/I chat on the topic, can you ask A/I a couple of more questions?
Apologies, had you asked me sooner, I could have given you a link with the saved conversation. All the context is lost now. Feel free to engage Grok with your questions if you wish, post the answers here if you so choose.
 
Sure you get it..... The judge will issue an arrest warrant which will probably be ignored once it's over his district line. I believe you're going to see a pattern of pushback against an imperial judiciary which has unfortunately evolved into a construct a very bad habits over the decades that they were allowed to operate in such a rogue manner.

We'll see I guess.

There will be the "ends justify the means" crowd that think unconsittutional actions and lawlessness are allowed to achieve short term goals.

Then there are those of us that are true patriots and believe in the foundations of this country and that really do believe in law and order and the government functioning with in the law.

We'll see which side wins out.

WW
 
I don't get up to the judge to challenge, judges don't appeal. Plaintiffs and Respondents appeal a judged ruling.



As Justice Kavanaugh and Sotomayor pointed out, in the recent ruling. Class Actions are the way it's SUPPOSED to proceed because their is a higher bar under Rule 23 for Class Actions.

So in the case of birthright citizenship EO challenges, that's exactly what they did. The followed the SOCTUS recommendation.

WW
The only PLANTIFF is the Marxist JUDGE. :rolleyes:
 
15th post
Who were the "illegal immigrants" at the time of the 14th that A/I says were excluded from 'all persons under the jurisdiction'?
"aliens"

That specific mention by the writers means what it says—anyone not a citizen of the United States.


How was citizenship gained by all the foreigners coming here to live, at the time of the 14th?
By naturalization, or in Ark's parents' case, legal permanent residence.


Were their children born on our soil being natural born citizens incentive for these foreign immigrants to come to America, regardless of their own status?
The concept of abusing that clause did not occur to foreigners back then. It was not until later in the 20th century (80s and 90s) that such behavior began to occur.
 
However, the ruling is made on existing law and interpretation. What really matters is when the court rules on the merits of the case the Administration brought before it regarding birthright citizenship.

The recent ruling was based on procedure, and as you pointed out the SCOTUS didn't address the merits of birthright citizenship and the plan language of the 14th.

That will still percolate up the appeals system. I expect them to accept a case probably in the fall when the new term starts with a decision in June 2026. Which is fine. That's the way it's supposed to work.

WW
 
Sure you get it..... The judge will issue an arrest warrant which will probably be ignored once it's over his district line. I believe you're going to see a pattern of pushback against an imperial judiciary which has unfortunately evolved into a construct a very bad habits over the decades that they were allowed to operate in such a rogue manner.
Lawlessness is lawlessness. The legal way to push back on federal judges that you feel are rogue, is to impeach them.... But first you must work through the LEGAL system of appeals....NOT simply declaring they're rogue and you refuse to follow the rulings....

You fix the law or injustice, through the Law.

Lawlessness is unacceptable, under any condition.

As President Lincoln said, The best way to fix Bad Law is through enforcing it! (The uproar would force congress to change it, address the injustice.)
 
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