A serious question for "conservatives"

[Bass v 2.0]

I have seen more than a few self described "conservatives" on this board make statements to the effect; "The government has done nothing to help me be successful", or "I made my own money with no help from the government", or "I owe my success to no one but myself". While I think I understand the underlying concept these folks are speaking of, do they/you truly believe that our government has had no hand in creating the landscape that has allowed them/you to be successful and to have the things that you have? Just asking for clarification.

The people who make those statements are not conservatives, they're individualists who live is an idealistic world and like to credit themselves for everything. They're being intellectually dishonest.

We don't even know who those people are or if they exist anywhere outside VY's head.

I've seen that ilk in this forum, that type of thinking would only work in an idealistic, perfect world.

 

[MarcATL]

The government has done nothing more for me being successful than it has for someone else, or someone who has fallen on hard times, or someone that is just doing ok.... government is there to set the playing field of equality and equal treatment.... government did not make my decisions, did not hone my judgment, did not make me take my actions...

Government, however has taken from me to give to others in some misguided attempt to equalize outcome for others.... it has not only concentrated on pure equal treatment, like it is supposed to...

Our government has done as much if not more to try and hinder success or hinder those who make their success, as it has to keep the landscape within this country

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

 

[MarcATL]

Are you ever gonna learn to think rationally enough to stop whining about everyone who disagrees with your Messiah as being 'far right'. You make yourself look ridiculous.

An individual who continually refers to anyone other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as "the Messiah" is not only irrational, at best, but blasphemous.

A person such as this isn't taken seriously by thinking people. Never has and never will be.

 

[DiamondDave]

The government has done nothing more for me being successful than it has for someone else, or someone who has fallen on hard times, or someone that is just doing ok.... government is there to set the playing field of equality and equal treatment.... government did not make my decisions, did not hone my judgment, did not make me take my actions...

Government, however has taken from me to give to others in some misguided attempt to equalize outcome for others.... it has not only concentrated on pure equal treatment, like it is supposed to...

Our government has done as much if not more to try and hinder success or hinder those who make their success, as it has to keep the landscape within this country

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

No.. it is not... you are equating equalized outcome to equal treatment... which is NOT what it is

Equal treatment would be based on skills or whatever else and leaving race, sex, or whatever else COMPLETELY out of the picture...

nice try though

 

[MarcATL]

Were you educated in Haiti? Our education system is regulated by the federal government. Was your health looked after by Haiti? Our health system is regulated by the federal government. Was you first, second, or last bank accounts located in Haiti? Our deposits and banking (loans, credit, etc...) is insured and regulated by the federal government. Were your neighbors, the person who washed dishes, served your food or cooked it (or for your children) in Haiti? Guess what? Their health (or lack of same, or even tracking of same) is regulated and looked after, giving a direct benefit to you and yours, by (OMFG!) by the US federal government.
You wouldn't have gotten the education you needed to rise to your level of achievement in Haiti. Your and your progeny would not have been as protected health wise in Haiti. Your funds would have been more vulnerable as well, and your credit would not have been more forthcoming and / or the terms might not have been as protective of your financial OR physical health.
Why not a a pile of giraffe shit anywhere else in the world? Land anywhere. As a newborn. With or without a healthy mother (because of pesky US government rules and regs) and how do you think all that self determined skill and talent would have developed?
Jesushchristonapopsiclestick
but all of you take immense pride in letting the point sail WAY over your heads.

This is the exact same Anti-Intellectualism that seems to run rampant on the Right that I referred to in a recent thread.

 

[editec]

Are you ever gonna learn to think rationally enough to stop whining about everyone who disagrees with your Messiah as being 'far right'. You make yourself look ridiculous.

An individual who continually refers to anyone other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as "the Messiah" is not only irrational, at best, but blasphemous.

A person such as this isn't taken seriously by thinking people. Never has and never will be.

The BIG LIE of the right is that the Obama supporters are faith based idiots.

Hence the constant reference to them as belivers that O is a messiah.

FWIW I do the same thing to people who think that St. RONNIE was a conservative ICON.

But the difference is that you cannot find lefties who aren't bitching like hell about Obama, and not only bitching about his policies, but pointing out exactly what they're pissed about, too.

Try finding a radical rightest willing to point out the flaws in Ronny's administration.

Just try to find one example of that honest kind of criticism about Ronny happening on this or any board like it.

It just doesn't happen.

And that , sports fans, appears to be the primary difference between the left and the right.

The lefties believe in some poltical theories and bring thir belifs to the table regardless of who is in office.

Right wing partisans think more like TEAM PLAYERS and so they seldom (if ever) honestly evaluate their team's shortcomings.

And when those shortcomings are pointed out they do a number things to deal with that

1. Denial of the facts even if those facts are not in despute by any credible player or eather side of the aisle

2. Change the subject by using an example that they think is the SAME kind of behavior of the Ds.

3. AD hominen attacks on the poster that posted the post they would prefer not to address honestly.

Now certainly not every conservative here does that. That's WHY I come here.

But so many on thos board play by thiese idiotic TEAM PLAYERS rules, that seriously...I tend to just dismiss their posts as nothing but partisan nonsense.

 

[MarcATL]

The government has done nothing more for me being successful than it has for someone else, or someone who has fallen on hard times, or someone that is just doing ok.... government is there to set the playing field of equality and equal treatment.... government did not make my decisions, did not hone my judgment, did not make me take my actions...

Government, however has taken from me to give to others in some misguided attempt to equalize outcome for others.... it has not only concentrated on pure equal treatment, like it is supposed to...

Our government has done as much if not more to try and hinder success or hinder those who make their success, as it has to keep the landscape within this country

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

No.. it is not... you are equating equalized outcome to equal treatment... which is NOT what it is

Equal treatment would be based on skills or whatever else and leaving race, sex, or whatever else COMPLETELY out of the picture...

nice try though

"Nice try" my big toe.

You said it yourself...government is there to set the tone for equality amongst its citizens.

There was a time that government held blacks into slavery, a couple hundred years later they continued to deny them jobs simply for being black.

The government finally was forced to facing the fact that their hundreds of years of policy was hindering blacks' progress by denying them equal treatment.

Affirmative Action was ONE solution that resulted to correct that.

These are facts.

Nice try though.

 

[MarcATL]

Are you ever gonna learn to think rationally enough to stop whining about everyone who disagrees with your Messiah as being 'far right'. You make yourself look ridiculous.

An individual who continually refers to anyone other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as "the Messiah" is not only irrational, at best, but blasphemous.

A person such as this isn't taken seriously by thinking people. Never has and never will be.

The BIG LIE of the right is that the Obama supporters are faith based idiots.

Hence the constant reference to them as belivers that O is a messiah.

FWIW I do the same thing to people who thing St. RONNIE was a conservative ICON.

But the difference is that you cannot find lefties who aren't bitching like hell about obama and not only bitching but pointing out exactly what they're pissed about, either.

Try finding a radical rightest willing to point out the flaws in Ronny's administration.

Just try to find one example of that honest criticism about Ronny happening on this or any board like it.

It just doesn't happen.

Just like how we were hard-pressed to find one person DURING the last Regime that would disagree with Bush, I mean Cheney in public, and private for that matter.

After the fact many are coming out of the woodworks claiming that they never agreed with many of his policies.

Moments later you will find those individual defending Bush on any litany of topics.

There is no rational thought on the Far Right whatsoever.

BTW, there are many LW Christians...however we aren't walking around bashing people over the head with our beliefs. It's no secret that the radical Right has perverted Christianity. And that's my biggest disagreement with them

 

[boedicca]

The government has done nothing more for me being successful than it has for someone else, or someone who has fallen on hard times, or someone that is just doing ok.... government is there to set the playing field of equality and equal treatment.... government did not make my decisions, did not hone my judgment, did not make me take my actions...

Government, however has taken from me to give to others in some misguided attempt to equalize outcome for others.... it has not only concentrated on pure equal treatment, like it is supposed to...

Our government has done as much if not more to try and hinder success or hinder those who make their success, as it has to keep the landscape within this country

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

No it's not. Affirmative Action in practice sets quotas and preferences regardless of the individual merits of the candidates.

 

[Oddball]

Just try to find one example of that honest criticism about Ronny happening on this or any board like it.

It just doesn't happen.

He failed to cut spending.

He raised the FICA tax.

He escalated the idiotic and utterly failed "war" on (some) drugs.

He took the blame for Iran-Contra, letting the real perps (BushI, North, Poindexter, etcetera) off the hook.

He propped up Saddam.

 

[DiamondDave]

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

No.. it is not... you are equating equalized outcome to equal treatment... which is NOT what it is

Equal treatment would be based on skills or whatever else and leaving race, sex, or whatever else COMPLETELY out of the picture...

nice try though

"Nice try" my big toe.

You said it yourself...government is there to set the tone for equality amongst its citizens.

There was a time that government held blacks into slavery, a couple hundred years later they continued to deny them jobs simply for being black.

The government finally was forced to facing the fact that their hundreds of years of policy was hindering blacks' progress by denying them equal treatment.

Affirmative Action was ONE solution that resulted to correct that.

These are facts.

Nice try though.

No.. what AA and YOU advocate is SELECTIVE equal treatment based on SUBJECTIVE feelings and wish for a specified outcome.. and not equal treatment for all without any agenda or politics behind the subjective reasoning...

Slavery is dead and gone, and so is segregation, bubba.... time to treat everyone as equals regardless of skin color, sex, or whatever else... and keep away from this sins of the father subjective pandering bullshit

 

[MarcATL]

The government has done nothing more for me being successful than it has for someone else, or someone who has fallen on hard times, or someone that is just doing ok.... government is there to set the playing field of equality and equal treatment.... government did not make my decisions, did not hone my judgment, did not make me take my actions...

Government, however has taken from me to give to others in some misguided attempt to equalize outcome for others.... it has not only concentrated on pure equal treatment, like it is supposed to...

Our government has done as much if not more to try and hinder success or hinder those who make their success, as it has to keep the landscape within this country

Interesting...

You do realize this is the EXACT reason why Affirmative Action exists do you?

I'm glad you got thanked by so many self-proclaimed conservatives for this statement too.

We agree on something.

No it's not. Affirmative Action in practice sets quotas and preferences regardless of the individual merits of the candidates.

So says you.

I'd like to have some FACTS backing that RW claim.

Links?

The fact remains that AA was created to LEVEL the playing field. Period.

 

[MarcATL]

No.. it is not... you are equating equalized outcome to equal treatment... which is NOT what it is

Equal treatment would be based on skills or whatever else and leaving race, sex, or whatever else COMPLETELY out of the picture...

nice try though

"Nice try" my big toe.

You said it yourself...government is there to set the tone for equality amongst its citizens.

There was a time that government held blacks into slavery, a couple hundred years later they continued to deny them jobs simply for being black.

The government finally was forced to facing the fact that their hundreds of years of policy was hindering blacks' progress by denying them equal treatment.

Affirmative Action was ONE solution that resulted to correct that.

These are facts.

Nice try though.

No.. what AA and YOU advocate is SELECTIVE equal treatment based on SUBJECTIVE feelings and wish for a specified outcome.. and not equal treatment for all without any agenda or politics behind the subjective reasoning...

Slavery is dead and gone, and so is segregation, bubba.... time to treat everyone as equals regardless of skin color, sex, or whatever else... and keep away from this sins of the father subjective pandering bullshit

Got links?

 

[Barb]

Are you ever gonna learn to think rationally enough to stop whining about everyone who disagrees with your Messiah as being 'far right'. You make yourself look ridiculous.

An individual who continually refers to anyone other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as "the Messiah" is not only irrational, at best, but blasphemous.

A person such as this isn't taken seriously by thinking people. Never has and never will be.

In all honesty, as much admiration as I have for the man, the whole idea of a virgin birth leaves me cold. I think it detracts from us as a species, and from him as a human.
He was THE SHIT!
He spoke to multitudes, and they LISTENED!
CENTURIES before the written word was recorded SOMEMUTHERFUCKER WROTE IT DOWN! HOW does that happen?!
People make up all sorts of shit and attribute it to GAWD. And ain't that the shit.

 

[DiamondDave]

"Nice try" my big toe.

You said it yourself...government is there to set the tone for equality amongst its citizens.

There was a time that government held blacks into slavery, a couple hundred years later they continued to deny them jobs simply for being black.

The government finally was forced to facing the fact that their hundreds of years of policy was hindering blacks' progress by denying them equal treatment.

Affirmative Action was ONE solution that resulted to correct that.

These are facts.

Nice try though.

No.. what AA and YOU advocate is SELECTIVE equal treatment based on SUBJECTIVE feelings and wish for a specified outcome.. and not equal treatment for all without any agenda or politics behind the subjective reasoning...

Slavery is dead and gone, and so is segregation, bubba.... time to treat everyone as equals regardless of skin color, sex, or whatever else... and keep away from this sins of the father subjective pandering bullshit

Got links?

Slavery gone?
Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Segregation gone?
Racial segregation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AA is indeed selective based on the SELECTIVE treatment based on race

Sorry, racist.... you are flat out wrong on this if you truly believe in equal treatment by government

 

[editec]

Just try to find one example of that honest criticism about Ronny happening on this or any board like it.

It just doesn't happen.

He failed to cut spending.

He raised the FICA tax.

He escalated the idiotic and utterly failed "war" on (some) drugs.

He took the blame for Iran-Contra, letting the real perps (BushI, North, Poindexter, etcetera) off the hook.

He propped up Saddam.

Thank you.

See, assuming that Oddball thinks himself a conservative, then there ARE conservatives here who actually DO play attention to details that matter.

Now there ALWAYS were conservatives like that, but now those conservatives are often dismissed as RINOs, by the idiots in the far right know-NOTHING wing of the GOP.

And this board, and most boards like it, those KNOW-NOTHING rightest outnumber the thinking conservatives by a factor of about 10 to 1.

You can tell who these morons are by their hate-media talking points. Those talking points bloom like toxic mushrooms on these boards when they're finally given to the unwashed, angry (nearly always) white men who think that Beck or Rush actually KNOWS anything.

So if one reads these boards one might come to the conclusion that the right is loaded with complete idiots.


Thankfully for this nation, that isn't true.

 

[Oddball]

Just try to find one example of that honest criticism about Ronny happening on this or any board like it.

It just doesn't happen.

He failed to cut spending.

He raised the FICA tax.

He escalated the idiotic and utterly failed "war" on (some) drugs.

He took the blame for Iran-Contra, letting the real perps (BushI, North, Poindexter, etcetera) off the hook.

He propped up Saddam.

Thank you.

See, assuming that Oddball thinks himself a conservative, then there ARE conservatives here who actually DO play attention to details that matter.

Now there ALWAYS were conservatives like that, but now those conservatives are often dismissed as RINOs, by the idiots in the far right know-NOTHING wing of the GOP.

I'm not a "conservative", as the word has lost all meaning by way of the actions of "conservatives" like Juan McLouse, Tim Pawlenty, Newtered Gingwad and other assorted RINOs and neocons.

Indeed it is exactly those kinds of goobers, who campaign like libertarians then govern like progressives, that motivated me to swear off voting republican, back in '96.

I don't worship at the altar of Saint Ronnie, either.

 

[Barb]

He failed to cut spending.

He raised the FICA tax.

He escalated the idiotic and utterly failed "war" on (some) drugs.

He took the blame for Iran-Contra, letting the real perps (BushI, North, Poindexter, etcetera) off the hook.

He propped up Saddam.

Thank you.

See, assuming that Oddball thinks himself a conservative, then there ARE conservatives here who actually DO play attention to details that matter.

Now there ALWAYS were conservatives like that, but now those conservatives are often dismissed as RINOs, by the idiots in the far right know-NOTHING wing of the GOP.

I'm not a "conservative", as the word has lost all meaning by way of the actions of "conservatives" like Juan McLouse, Tim Pawlenty, Newtered Gingwad and other assorted RINOs and neocons.

Indeed it is exactly those kinds of goobers, who campaign like libertarians then govern like progressives, that motivated me to swear off voting republican, back in '96.

I don't worship at the altar of Saint Ronnie, either.

And though I don't agree with you most of the time either, at least you own your thoughts, mostly. And I don't, OH MY Gawd I don't.

 

[VaYank5150]

This thread has gotten SO off track. If I am wrong, I will say I am wrong. Is the supposition from all posters that have taken part in this thread that a) they are successful in spite of the government, and b) that I am the only one who claims to have seen this written on USMB?

 

[Oddball]

The premise also presumes that people aren't harmed by monstrous overbearing bureaucracies, or at least are being helped more so than harmed....For example, the FDA.

With the costs of getting a new medication of device to market pegged at over $500 million, who but the gigantic BigPharm companies (whom the left outwardly proclaim to HATE) can bear those costs?

How does all that expense and red tape help the small independent lab? Indeed, what motivation is there for someone to start up a medical research lab in the first place?

After that, what of all the safe and effective medications discovered by BigPharm, that are languishing on the shelves because the costs to get them approved cannot be recouped (i.e. orphan drugs)?

Like I said...Libruls just love visible beneficiaries and invisible casualties.