A Reasonable Solution To The Gay Marriage Debate

[WinterBorn]

Causing who to commit suicide? How?

I'd love to see a study on "causes of suicide". Ultimately, that, too, is just a choice.

The homosexual lobby is big on avoiding the consequences of making bad decisions.

The largest group of people who commit suicide do have mental disorders. Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

And it never occurs to the advocates that they are leaving these children who question their sexuality in for a life of depression, and possibly early death from AIDS by leaving them in such a disorder.

The politics of this situation is more important to them, than these children.

Because all homosexuals get AIDs and suffer from depression?

It occurs to the advocates that these children's struggle will not go away by making them hide who they are.

 

[WinterBorn]

I will remind you being black is not the same as being gay, so stop using loving vs Va. as a case point for gay marriage.

that would be incorrect. the pertinent part of Loving isn't necessarily the issue of race... it's the fact that marriage is a fundamental right that can't be denied to someone for discriminatory reasons.

so please stop ignoring what the court said when you know full well that Loving applies to the issue of gay rights.

Well number one, MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT! Show me in the Constitution where ANYONE is accorded the right of marriage?

You're not.

And you can be blocked from marrying.

If you are already married.

If your intended isn't willing to marry YOU

If you can't afford to marry.

Hey! My oldest and her beau have wanted to get married for two years. THEY CAN'T! They can't find good jobs (THANKS TO OBAMA) to afford moving out from under Mommy and Daddy (and no they are not living together, I would never allow that under my roof) Each is living under their own Mommy and Daddy's roof.

Marriage has never been a right.

And Homosexuality is not a race. It's a choice.

Actually, you might want to read the Us Supreme Court's ruling in Loving v. Virginia. In part, the court said: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Now before some farmboy comes in screaming about comparing race and homosexuality, the ruling of the court mentions neither race nor sexual orientation. It makes the blanket statement for all people of this nation.

Whether homosexuality is an innate part of the person's makeup or a choice has not been proven. Your contention to the contrary is nonsense.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Because a small percentage of gays commit suicide, you make a blanket statement that this shows it is wrong?

And just as an FYI, your claims about why God banned something is really not relevant to a discussion on legal issues in the USA.

Look Dude you can't have it both ways. Those suicides are how gay advocacy justifies all their gay outreach into the schools. YET, you are going to tell us the same suicides aren't pause to consider maybe it ISN'T everyone else's fault all the time?

And SINCE our laws ARE based on the Bible (and if you are going to argue otherwise, you better retake the history of this country and explain such things as the 10 Commandments on the USSC building) I think I can discuss such from that context.

The libs have done a hard job of trying to wipe out that history since the 1960s, but there is too much history for them to succeed.

So try again.

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

Our Founding Fathers didn't cite Hammurabi. They cited the Bible in their speeches.

John Adams:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN1">[SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN2">[SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE]

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN3">[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE]

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN4">[SIZE=-2]4[/SIZE]

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN5">[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN6">[SIZE=-2]6[/SIZE]

Thomas Jefferson:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN64">[SIZE=-2]64[/SIZE]

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN65">[SIZE=-2]65[/SIZE]

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">[SIZE=-2]66[/SIZE]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">[SIZE=-2]67[/SIZE]

Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

 

[WinterBorn]

Look Dude you can't have it both ways. Those suicides are how gay advocacy justifies all their gay outreach into the schools. YET, you are going to tell us the same suicides aren't pause to consider maybe it ISN'T everyone else's fault all the time?

And SINCE our laws ARE based on the Bible (and if you are going to argue otherwise, you better retake the history of this country and explain such things as the 10 Commandments on the USSC building) I think I can discuss such from that context.

The libs have done a hard job of trying to wipe out that history since the 1960s, but there is too much history for them to succeed.

So try again.

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

The 1st Amendment clearly states that there will be no state religion. What Roy Moore did (as chief justice) was clearly against that amendment and, therefore, unconstitutional.

Having that monument as the only display in the courthouse lobby is totally advocating one religion over all others.

 

[teapartysamurai]

The largest group of people who commit suicide do have mental disorders. Homosexuality is a mental disorder.

And it never occurs to the advocates that they are leaving these children who question their sexuality in for a life of depression, and possibly early death from AIDS by leaving them in such a disorder.

The politics of this situation is more important to them, than these children.

Because all homosexuals get AIDs and suffer from depression?

It occurs to the advocates that these children's struggle will not go away by making them hide who they are.

That's like saying because a child has pneumonia or asthma, they should just "accept who they are" and go on without EVER finding help!

I'm not talking about hiding. I'm talking about HELPING. Just because a child is confused about their sexuality does not mean we just say "oh, you're gay!" and leave it at that!

We help children for other things from depression to autism. But in the case of homsexuality we should just leave them confused, because they are a good banner for the gay cause?

That's saying they are better political tools left as they are. That's hardly caring.

 

[garyganu]

that would be incorrect. the pertinent part of Loving isn't necessarily the issue of race... it's the fact that marriage is a fundamental right that can't be denied to someone for discriminatory reasons.

so please stop ignoring what the court said when you know full well that Loving applies to the issue of gay rights.

Well number one, MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT! Show me in the Constitution where ANYONE is accorded the right of marriage?

You're not.

And you can be blocked from marrying.

If you are already married.

If your intended isn't willing to marry YOU

If you can't afford to marry.

Hey! My oldest and her beau have wanted to get married for two years. THEY CAN'T! They can't find good jobs (THANKS TO OBAMA) to afford moving out from under Mommy and Daddy (and no they are not living together, I would never allow that under my roof) Each is living under their own Mommy and Daddy's roof.

Marriage has never been a right.

And Homosexuality is not a race. It's a choice.

Actually, you might want to read the Us Supreme Court's ruling in Loving v. Virginia. In part, the court said: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Now before some farmboy comes in screaming about comparing race and homosexuality, the ruling of the court mentions neither race nor sexual orientation. It makes the blanket statement for all people of this nation.

Whether homosexuality is an innate part of the person's makeup or a choice has not been proven. Your contention to the contrary is nonsense.

I don't disagree with the right to marry. I disagree with redefining marriage.

 

[teapartysamurai]

that would be incorrect. the pertinent part of Loving isn't necessarily the issue of race... it's the fact that marriage is a fundamental right that can't be denied to someone for discriminatory reasons.

so please stop ignoring what the court said when you know full well that Loving applies to the issue of gay rights.

Well number one, MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT! Show me in the Constitution where ANYONE is accorded the right of marriage?

You're not.

And you can be blocked from marrying.

If you are already married.

If your intended isn't willing to marry YOU

If you can't afford to marry.

Hey! My oldest and her beau have wanted to get married for two years. THEY CAN'T! They can't find good jobs (THANKS TO OBAMA) to afford moving out from under Mommy and Daddy (and no they are not living together, I would never allow that under my roof) Each is living under their own Mommy and Daddy's roof.

Marriage has never been a right.

And Homosexuality is not a race. It's a choice.

Actually, you might want to read the Us Supreme Court's ruling in Loving v. Virginia. In part, the court said: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Now before some farmboy comes in screaming about comparing race and homosexuality, the ruling of the court mentions neither race nor sexual orientation. It makes the blanket statement for all people of this nation.

Whether homosexuality is an innate part of the person's makeup or a choice has not been proven. Your contention to the contrary is nonsense.

The Supreme Court once said Blacks were not Citizens (see Dredd Scott) and that segregation was okay as long as everything was "separate but equal."

The Supreme Court saying it, does NOT put it in the Constitution. Separation of Church and State is not on the Constitution. It doesn't stop legislating from the bench.

 

[WinterBorn]

John Adams:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN1">[SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN2">[SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE]

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN3">[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE]

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN4">[SIZE=-2]4[/SIZE]

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN5">[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN6">[SIZE=-2]6[/SIZE]

Thomas Jefferson:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN64">[SIZE=-2]64[/SIZE]

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN65">[SIZE=-2]65[/SIZE]

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">[SIZE=-2]66[/SIZE]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">[SIZE=-2]67[/SIZE]

Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

You are actually claiming Jefferson as a christian in favor of creating a christian nation? lol

from: The Christian Nation Myth

"Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816)."

"Jefferson didn't just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was "the inspired word of God"; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, "Politics and Religious Illiteracy," Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33)."


Here are more quotes by Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
.

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever." -Virginia Act for Religious Freedom





At any rate, the SCOTUS has consistently ruled that the separation of church and state is constitutional and valid.

 

[Gadawg73]

Look Dude you can't have it both ways. Those suicides are how gay advocacy justifies all their gay outreach into the schools. YET, you are going to tell us the same suicides aren't pause to consider maybe it ISN'T everyone else's fault all the time?

And SINCE our laws ARE based on the Bible (and if you are going to argue otherwise, you better retake the history of this country and explain such things as the 10 Commandments on the USSC building) I think I can discuss such from that context.

The libs have done a hard job of trying to wipe out that history since the 1960s, but there is too much history for them to succeed.

So try again.

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

Our Founding Fathers didn't cite Hammurabi. They cited the Bible in their speeches.

John Adams:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN1">[SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]

The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN2">[SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE]

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN3">[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE]

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN4">[SIZE=-2]4[/SIZE]

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN5">[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN6">[SIZE=-2]6[/SIZE]

Thomas Jefferson:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN64">[SIZE=-2]64[/SIZE]

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN65">[SIZE=-2]65[/SIZE]

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">[SIZE=-2]66[/SIZE]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">[SIZE=-2]67[/SIZE]

Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

I am a conservative Republican and a Christian.
True conservatives want NO part of religion in government.
We are a nation OF LAW, not of men and their various and changing like the wind religous beliefs. Our nation was not Founded on Christianity or the Bible.
This great nation was founded on THE LAW and that law, the Constitution is based on keeping religous influences OUT OF GOVERNMENT.
I do not want to deny you your religion. No one does.
But when you attempt to use the power of government to force your religous beliefs on me I will see you in court.
And I will win every time.
Something about The United States Constitution.
An interesting document. I suggest you read it.

 

[teapartysamurai]

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

The 1st Amendment clearly states that there will be no state religion. What Roy Moore did (as chief justice) was clearly against that amendment and, therefore, unconstitutional.

Having that monument as the only display in the courthouse lobby is totally advocating one religion over all others.

What the 1st Amendment clearly states is Congress will establish no religion. The FACT is many of the States DID have State Churches at the beginning of this country.

• Most states in early America had established churches
• Established Church: a church officially supported (and paid for) by the government
• Dissenters from established churches were tolerated but not always treated equally
• First Amendment originally limited only federal government, not state governments
• First Amendment contains two clauses on religion: Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause

First, we need to remember that when the First Amendment was drafted, most of the newly independent states of the United States already had established churches. These churches were the "official" religion in their colonies and were paid for by taxes collected by the government. Dissenters, or members of churches that disagreed with the established church, were tolerated in every colony, but they had to accept certain restrictions as a result of their religious choice. Many had to pay taxes to support the established church despite their disagreements with it, and many were barred from holding public office.

Second, we need to recognize that the ratification of the First Amendment did not change any of this. It guaranteed only that the federal government would not establish an official national church or pass any laws interfering with a person’s religious practice. The states were left free to make their own rules about religion.

If we really get down to it, the First Amendment did not really do much at all in terms of altering the religious conditions of early America. It prevented the national government from creating a national church, but given all of the other contentious issues on the table during the nation’s first decades—slavery, the national debt, land policy, foreign attacks on American shipping—it is doubtful that anyone would have seriously tried to stir things up even further by seeking to impose a national religion. Similarly, while the First Amendment denied Congress all authority to interfere with the religious practices of the American people, Congress had little interest in doing this in the first place. Other issues were more pressing, and virtually everyone agreed that this sort of thing was better left to the individual states to handle.

Religion in Early America


You want to interpret "no establishment of religion" to mean "but we CAN establish the religion of atheism by suppressing all other religions."

That is NOT in the Constitution. Nor was it EVER established by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

That only changed when justices started forcing their OPINIONS on the country instead of the actual Constitution.

 

[garyganu]

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

Our Founding Fathers didn't cite Hammurabi. They cited the Bible in their speeches.

Thomas Jefferson:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN64">[SIZE=-2]64[/SIZE]

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN65">[SIZE=-2]65[/SIZE]

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">[SIZE=-2]66[/SIZE]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">[SIZE=-2]67[/SIZE]

Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

I am a conservative Republican and a Christian.
True conservatives want NO part of religion in government.
We are a nation OF LAW, not of men and their various and changing like the wind religous beliefs. Our nation was not Founded on Christianity or the Bible.
This great nation was founded on THE LAW and that law, the Constitution is based on keeping religous influences OUT OF GOVERNMENT.
I do not want to deny you your religion. No one does.
But when you attempt to use the power of government to force your religous beliefs on me I will see you in court.
And I will win every time.
Something about The United States Constitution.
An interesting document. I suggest you read it.

Religion has nothing to do with redefining marriage. Most people who are opposed to gay marriage are not religious, although some are.

 

[WinterBorn]

And it never occurs to the advocates that they are leaving these children who question their sexuality in for a life of depression, and possibly early death from AIDS by leaving them in such a disorder.

The politics of this situation is more important to them, than these children.

Because all homosexuals get AIDs and suffer from depression?

It occurs to the advocates that these children's struggle will not go away by making them hide who they are.

That's like saying because a child has pneumonia or asthma, they should just "accept who they are" and go on without EVER finding help!

I'm not talking about hiding. I'm talking about HELPING. Just because a child is confused about their sexuality does not mean we just say "oh, you're gay!" and leave it at that!

We help children for other things from depression to autism. But in the case of homsexuality we should just leave them confused, because they are a good banner for the gay cause?

That's saying they are better political tools left as they are. That's hardly caring.

You are comparing homosexuality to asthma? lol That is too ridiculous for a response.

The fact is that the APA and the AMA have not classified homosexuality as a disease.

Plus, there is not a single "treatment" for homosexuality that does anything except make the person hide who they are.

 

[teapartysamurai]

You are actually claiming Jefferson as a christian in favor of creating a christian nation? lol

from: The Christian Nation Myth

"Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816)."

"Jefferson didn't just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was "the inspired word of God"; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, "Politics and Religious Illiteracy," Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33)."


Here are more quotes by Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
.

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever." -Virginia Act for Religious Freedom





At any rate, the SCOTUS has consistently ruled that the separation of church and state is constitutional and valid.

The only problem with what you have here is it claims they have said these things without ANY references.

Notice the little numbers on my quotes? Those are references. It holds a lot more value.

 

[WinterBorn]

Well number one, MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT! Show me in the Constitution where ANYONE is accorded the right of marriage?

You're not.

And you can be blocked from marrying.

If you are already married.

If your intended isn't willing to marry YOU

If you can't afford to marry.

Hey! My oldest and her beau have wanted to get married for two years. THEY CAN'T! They can't find good jobs (THANKS TO OBAMA) to afford moving out from under Mommy and Daddy (and no they are not living together, I would never allow that under my roof) Each is living under their own Mommy and Daddy's roof.

Marriage has never been a right.

And Homosexuality is not a race. It's a choice.

Actually, you might want to read the Us Supreme Court's ruling in Loving v. Virginia. In part, the court said: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Now before some farmboy comes in screaming about comparing race and homosexuality, the ruling of the court mentions neither race nor sexual orientation. It makes the blanket statement for all people of this nation.

Whether homosexuality is an innate part of the person's makeup or a choice has not been proven. Your contention to the contrary is nonsense.

The Supreme Court once said Blacks were not Citizens (see Dredd Scott) and that segregation was okay as long as everything was "separate but equal."

The Supreme Court saying it, does NOT put it in the Constitution. Separation of Church and State is not on the Constitution. It doesn't stop legislating from the bench.

And not one attempt to overturn the rulings of the SCOTUS concerning the separation of church & state has ever been successful. Not even close.

The fact that the 1st Amendment forbids creating a state religion helps create the separation.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Discuss more later. I have to get to work!

 

[Gadawg73]

What I find amazing is the ignorance of those that believe the Founders had the backing of the church in their revolution.
Fact is the majority of churches DID NOT want to leave being a colony of England. MOST of the colonists, especially in the south, were against the revolution.
The Church of England, the Anglican church was the predominant denomination in the colonies and most of them WERE TORRIES, they supported the crown.
We kicked their ass and over 100,000 of them fled to Canada and back to England after the revolution.
This great nation was founded on the law.
We defeated the religous influences of divine right which the monarchs used to oppress for a thousand years. "We have the blessings of God to rule" was the monarchs creed.
We defeated divine right and the monarchs claims that the Christian religion and The Bible gave them the power they had.
Something about the Constitution. A document that does not mention God.
But of course there was support for a national religion and government support and funding for churches at the convention before the Constitution was ratified.
They lost. Sorry about that.

 

[WinterBorn]

I am not having it both ways. I am saying that you cannot ignore all the relevant factors in the number of suicides.

I can explain the 10 Commandments on the US Supreme Court building quite easily. The frieze to which you refer is one of 18 on the walls of the US Supreme Court building. They represent the law givers throughout history. Moses and teh 10 Commandments are displayed no more prominantly than Hammurabi, Mohammid, Justinian, Menes or the others.

This is why the 2 ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Courthouse lobby had to be removed and the friezes in the US Supreme Courthouse stay. The monument in Alabama was the only display allowed, while the one in Washington is one of 18. (I think it is 18, but I could be wrong)

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

Our Founding Fathers didn't cite Hammurabi. They cited the Bible in their speeches.

Thomas Jefferson:

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN64">[SIZE=-2]64[/SIZE]

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN65">[SIZE=-2]65[/SIZE]

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">[SIZE=-2]66[/SIZE]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">[SIZE=-2]67[/SIZE]

Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

I am a conservative Republican and a Christian.
True conservatives want NO part of religion in government.
We are a nation OF LAW, not of men and their various and changing like the wind religous beliefs. Our nation was not Founded on Christianity or the Bible.
This great nation was founded on THE LAW and that law, the Constitution is based on keeping religous influences OUT OF GOVERNMENT.
I do not want to deny you your religion. No one does.
But when you attempt to use the power of government to force your religous beliefs on me I will see you in court.
And I will win every time.
Something about The United States Constitution.
An interesting document. I suggest you read it.

Well said. The idea that the only true conservatives are the social conservatives has done more harm to conservatism than any other factor.

True conservatives do not want the US gov't legislating religion.

 

[Gadawg73]

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

Our Founding Fathers didn't cite Hammurabi. They cited the Bible in their speeches.





Many more quotes here: WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

Liberals want to deny this, because it's evidence their agenda is wrong. But the our laws and our country was based on the Bible and Christianity. There is too much evidence to deny this.

I am a conservative Republican and a Christian.
True conservatives want NO part of religion in government.
We are a nation OF LAW, not of men and their various and changing like the wind religous beliefs. Our nation was not Founded on Christianity or the Bible.
This great nation was founded on THE LAW and that law, the Constitution is based on keeping religous influences OUT OF GOVERNMENT.
I do not want to deny you your religion. No one does.
But when you attempt to use the power of government to force your religous beliefs on me I will see you in court.
And I will win every time.
Something about The United States Constitution.
An interesting document. I suggest you read it.

Religion has nothing to do with redefining marriage. Most people who are opposed to gay marriage are not religious, although some are.

Everyone I know opposed is because of their religous beliefs.
Why would anyone oppose it otherwise?
How does it affect anyone?
Where did you get your "they are immoral" BS if not from religous beliefs?

 

[WinterBorn]

They had to be removed because of the Unconstitutional "interpretation" of Separation of Church and State (words that are NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION)

As I said, liberals are trying hard to rewrite history and get rid of the Christian origins of this country. That doesn't change the history of this country.

The 1st Amendment clearly states that there will be no state religion. What Roy Moore did (as chief justice) was clearly against that amendment and, therefore, unconstitutional.

Having that monument as the only display in the courthouse lobby is totally advocating one religion over all others.

What the 1st Amendment clearly states is Congress will establish no religion. The FACT is many of the States DID have State Churches at the beginning of this country.

• Most states in early America had established churches
• Established Church: a church officially supported (and paid for) by the government
• Dissenters from established churches were tolerated but not always treated equally
• First Amendment originally limited only federal government, not state governments
• First Amendment contains two clauses on religion: Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause

First, we need to remember that when the First Amendment was drafted, most of the newly independent states of the United States already had established churches. These churches were the "official" religion in their colonies and were paid for by taxes collected by the government. Dissenters, or members of churches that disagreed with the established church, were tolerated in every colony, but they had to accept certain restrictions as a result of their religious choice. Many had to pay taxes to support the established church despite their disagreements with it, and many were barred from holding public office.

Second, we need to recognize that the ratification of the First Amendment did not change any of this. It guaranteed only that the federal government would not establish an official national church or pass any laws interfering with a person’s religious practice. The states were left free to make their own rules about religion.

If we really get down to it, the First Amendment did not really do much at all in terms of altering the religious conditions of early America. It prevented the national government from creating a national church, but given all of the other contentious issues on the table during the nation’s first decades—slavery, the national debt, land policy, foreign attacks on American shipping—it is doubtful that anyone would have seriously tried to stir things up even further by seeking to impose a national religion. Similarly, while the First Amendment denied Congress all authority to interfere with the religious practices of the American people, Congress had little interest in doing this in the first place. Other issues were more pressing, and virtually everyone agreed that this sort of thing was better left to the individual states to handle.

Religion in Early America


You want to interpret "no establishment of religion" to mean "but we CAN establish the religion of atheism by suppressing all other religions."

That is NOT in the Constitution. Nor was it EVER established by the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

That only changed when justices started forcing their OPINIONS on the country instead of the actual Constitution.

No one is establishing a religon of atheism (which is a misnomer at best). No one is banning any religion. What is done is to protect those who are not Judeo-Christian from being a victim of laws based solely on that religion. For our gov't, no religion is greater than any other, and nonbelief is as protected as belief.

 

[WinterBorn]

The only problem with what you have here is it claims they have said these things without ANY references.

Notice the little numbers on my quotes? Those are references. It holds a lot more value.

They quotes are referenced by the writings from which they came.