A Minor Mystery Of WWII

[whitehall]

Yet it is a mystery, and there are myriad of theories, and there wouldn't be if all records were available.

Smithsonian has an article...

Will We Ever Know Why Nazi Leader Rudolf Hess Flew to Scotland in the Middle of World War II?

The remarkable tale of insanity, espionage, and conspiracies remains unanswered after 75 years

www.smithsonianmag.com

"Yet a persistent theory has suggested that Hess's ill-fated peace mission was actually carried out with Hitler's knowledge—and the understanding that he'd be disavowed as insane if it failed."

Apparently the Smithsonian only collects newspaper clippings. Did anyone ever ask the Brits?

 

[westwall]

OK.....let's not waste time......watch how quickly I put you in your place:


"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Interesting whose quote that is.


This thread is not centered on Hess's flight to Scotland.
That would be an event.
The focus is the idea that was the fundemental idea of Nazism.

Blood.

Used in this way:

"This attitude dovetails with what is known about FDR's views regarding immigrants in general and Asian immigrants in particular.... He recommended that future immigration should be limited to those who had "blood of the right sort." "

Now see if you can miss the clearly written point a second time, you dunce.

Mind your manners PC. You and I are allied in many ways, but I have traveled far more extensively than you. I am as well educated, if not better than you as well, so keep it civil.

 

[Grau]

I really appreciate this well thought out post.


You have taken a certain amount of my thunder, but I hope you will allow me to elucidate in my way.....in the next few posts.

Thanks for your kind words and I promise you that any "Thunder theft" was purely unintentional.

Historically, I've found threads relating to WW 2 and the Holocaust to be problematic and emotionally charged especially if one attempts to be objective.

Imagine how different the history books, entertainment media, MSM etc would be today if the Axis Powers had won the war. I don't know why anyone would be so naive as to think that only the "other" side used / uses propaganda at any place or time in history.

History is replete with incredible whoppers that "everybody knows".

I'm glad that you chose this particular event to discuss because enough research reveals the degree to which FDR and Churchill were more interested in the destruction of Germany and seizing its colonies than liberating the planet from oppressive governments like the USSR.

Even the most talented Allied propagandists at America's propaganda ministry ( O.W.I. Office of War Information) couldn't make Hitler out to be more demonic than our ally, the more malevolent tyrant, Stalin.

Anyway, it's been a busy weekend but I look forward to reading more of your comments and contributing what I can.

Thanks,

 

[PoliticalChic]

Thanks for your kind words and I promise you that any "Thunder theft" was purely unintentional.

Historically, I've found threads relating to WW 2 and the Holocaust to be problematic and emotionally charged especially if one attempts to be objective.

Imagine how different the history books, entertainment media, MSM etc would be today if the Axis Powers had won the war. I don't know why anyone would be so naive as to think that only the "other" side used / uses propaganda at any place or time in history.

History is replete with incredible whoppers that "everybody knows".

I'm glad that you chose this particular event to discuss because enough research reveals the degree to which FDR and Churchill were more interested in the destruction of Germany and seizing its colonies than liberating the planet from oppressive governments like the USSR.

Even the most talented Allied propagandists at America's propaganda ministry ( O.W.I. Office of War Information) couldn't make Hitler out to be more demonic than our ally, the more malevolent tyrant, Stalin.

Anyway, it's been a busy weekend but I look forward to reading more of your comments and contributing what I can.

Thanks,

A great pleasure to see a post with that sort of thought and experience behind it.


Hope to see your work again.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Mind your manners PC. You and I are allied in many ways, but I have traveled far more extensively than you. I am as well educated, if not better than you as well, so keep it civil.

Mind your manners PC. You and I are allied in many ways, but I have traveled far more extensively than you. I am as well educated, if not better than you as well, so keep it civil.

With apologies. I don't know how that post wound up in your address, it was written to the poster who wrote this:


"Hence your obsession with Hess. And dumb FDR conspiracy theories."



He was referring to the Eleanor Roosevelt quote about great minds.

 

[BothWings]

Ever since I saw his photo for the first time (probably some time back in the late 70's or early 80's) I thought that guy looked like a fruit loop! Oddly enoughI used to have a boss in the meat business who looked like him, but he was Italian. He was also not playing with a full deck. Maybe it's something genetic which is somehow linked to the phenotype. Italy is right over the Alps from Germany, remember.

 

[whitehall]

The Brits have to know but the freaking American intelligence network has classified everything going beck to the War of 1812,

 

[Grau]

For myself, the question has always been 'why did Hitler continue with a suicidal Operation Barbarossa if he didn't get a positive response from Hess/the Brits?'

He must have known what Napoleon faced in Russia.

But I am religious, and see an explanation there.

Operation Barbarossa was reluctantly planned and initiated out of perceived necessity as a preemptive strike because German intelligence discovered Stalin's plan to march West and keep going.
As you know, Communism had been spreading all around the world and represented a formidable

Unlike the moronic canard that "Hitler wanted to conquer the world.", the reality was that the Soviets did have the manpower and resources overwhelm at least Europe and the Balkans.

After all, the Soviets and the British invaded Iran in 1941 and the main reason that the early stages of Barbarossa were so successful is because the Soviet troops were in offensive positions and ready to march West on "M- Day" (Mobilization Day; 6 August 1941).

I'm unaware of anyone in the German High Command or officer corps who didn't know of Napoleon's grotesque folly or felt confidant about an easy victory against the Soviets.

I've read the Wannsee Meeting minutes in the original German and while there was discussion of moving people to the East, there was no indication of pending military action like Barbarossa.

"Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War"

Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War

The controversy surrounding the origins of the Nazi-Soviet War in 1941, namely over the issue of whether or not Stalin intended to launch an offensive against Nazi Germany that year, has produced a contentious debate between revisionist (i.e. those...

www.inquiriesjournal.com

EXCERPT " He [Victor Suvorov] cites a lack of defensive preparations, such as the construction of fortified lines and anti-tank ditches, and notes their deployment in hidden areas (such as woods) as evidence of the intention of the soviet leadership to conceal an imminent offensive operation.

…Stalin’s desire to attack Nazi Germany in 1941 with an analysis of soviet foreign policy during the 1930s. They contend that Stalin believed in the concept of world revolution, and that the Second World War provided Stalin an opportunity to extend soviet influence throughout Europe. Mel'tiukhov, for instance, asserts that, “the USSR’s principal aim was to expand the “front of socialism” across as much territory as possible.” CONTINUED

-----------------------------

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,

 

[PoliticalChic]

Mind your manners PC. You and I are allied in many ways, but I have traveled far more extensively than you. I am as well educated, if not better than you as well, so keep it civil.

Now I'm curious.....

I've been in the Pyramids, King Tut’s Tomb, and Petra in Jordan.....swam in the Mediterranean, and visited the Dome of the Rock, bull fights in Spain, the Sistine Chapel, the Shrine of Fatima in Portugal, had lunch in the Casbah, been to the world’s finest art museum, the Uffizi, bathed in the peaceful smoke of joss sticks in Buddhist temples, and, traveled in this country. I’ve been on the vaporetto’s in Venice, and walked the stations of the cross in Jerusalem. I stood on the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and studied the David at the Academy…..



Soooo.....how'd I do?


S

 

[Grumpyolman]

It's exactly as the history books say. Hitler couldn't scale an invasion of England without air superiority. The RAF never gave them that, even in the last days of the battle of Britain. The brave Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, along with British radar stations, kept them at bay.

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" -Winston Churchill.​

 

[PoliticalChic]

It's exactly as the history books say. Hitler couldn't scale an invasion of England without air superiority. The RAF never gave them that, even in the last days of the battle of Britain. The brave Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, along with British radar stations, kept them at bay.

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" -Winston Churchill.​

You're missing a subtext here. Hitler could have 'punished' England the way he did France. Why didn't he?
Remember the way he allowed the English to escape the killing field of Dunkirk.

And the question remains, what did he know of English upper class that was pro-Nazi?

 

[BackAgain]

And Russia was doing the same. Trump does not even know what day it is much less blame Biden with any credibility.

What?

 

[Weatherman2020]

Probably the best explanation for Hess's trip.

Why would Hitler have any belief that the English would accede to his offer?

May of 41 was the low point for the Brits. Dunkirk and Battle of Britain were over but the they still stood alone. I doubt Hitler would accept a deal and I certainly know Churchill would not.

Hitler’s regime was so politically compartmentalized it was nonfunctional politically. Everyone backstabbing and stepping on each other just for more power. Maybe Hess was trying to backstab Hitler, who knows.

 

[Weatherman2020]

You're missing a subtext here. Hitler could have 'punished' England the way he did France. Why didn't he?
Remember the way he allowed the English to escape the killing field of Dunkirk.

Pure arrogance. It’s why Germany always fell for all the deceptions we gave them. Arrogant.

And the question remains, what did he know of English upper class that was pro-Nazi?

Before the war German spies ran amok in England. Fortunately the Brits were good at learning who they were.

As soon as war was declared the Brits rounded up the spies. And from what we know now they got them all. The first response was firing squads for them then some genius said give them an option. Firing squad or work for us. So now the Brits had a group of players feeding the Germans info we wanted to feed them that were trusted by the Germans. More were added later because we knew when the next German was to be parachuted in. And because we had broken the German code we knew which spies Hitler trusted most. We called them our first violins.

 

[westwall]

Now I'm curious.....

I've been in the Pyramids, King Tut’s Tomb, and Petra in Jordan.....swam in the Mediterranean, and visited the Dome of the Rock, bull fights in Spain, the Sistine Chapel, the Shrine of Fatima in Portugal, had lunch in the Casbah, been to the world’s finest art museum, the Uffizi, bathed in the peaceful smoke of joss sticks in Buddhist temples, and, traveled in this country. I’ve been on the vaporetto’s in Venice, and walked the stations of the cross in Jerusalem. I stood on the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and studied the David at the Academy…..



Soooo.....how'd I do?


S

Pretty good. Now add New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Malaysia, China, Mongolia, Russia when it was still communist, India, Nepal, Kashmir, Pakistan, Tibet, Ethiopia, Kenya, Botswana, South Afric pre and post apartheid, Morocco, Egypt, Chad, Belgian Congo, Rhodesia, South West Africa, South Georgia Island, The Canary Islands, Malta, Gibraltar, Greenland, Iceland, and Antarctica.

Plus every place you listed except the Uffizi, I was never able to work that in, nor have I walked the stations of the cross in Jerusalem, though I have spent a lot of time in the city, as well as the country as a whole.

Nor have I experienced the incense in a Buddhist temple, but have spent weeks in the Plain of Jars and exploring Ankor Wat.

Venice is one of my favorite cities, but I also enjoy Sienna, Milan, Rome, the Isle of Capri, and further north, Monte Carlo.

I've not climbed to the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, but have climbed to the top of Stirling Castle, and dined atop the Eiffel Tower.

I must confess I am not too intrigued by art works. My wife's cousin was the principle photographer for the Louvre, so it was very nice having access after hours, but I was more interested in visiting historic battlefields, and ancient archeological sites. So Pompeii is a favorite, as is the Oracle at Delphi, and the ruins of Sparta. Nimrud was also a favorite, but the savages of ISIS destroyed that exceptional site. Their wanton destruction of archeological sites, along with the Taliban have earned my hatred till the end of my days.

So, you are well traveled, but have a ways to go to catch up.

 

[westwall]

It's exactly as the history books say. Hitler couldn't scale an invasion of England without air superiority. The RAF never gave them that, even in the last days of the battle of Britain. The brave Spitfire and Hurricane pilots, along with British radar stations, kept them at bay.

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few" -Winston Churchill.​

This is true, but the Battle of Britain was a very close run endeavor. The Germans had reached the point where the RAF was exhausted, fortunately Bomber Command had launched a raid that mistakenly bombed Berlin.

Hitler and Goering were so furious that they changed their tactics from airfield attacks, to city attacks.

That decision doomed them. It allowed the RAF to replenish and replace lost pilots.

 

[westwall]

You're missing a subtext here. Hitler could have 'punished' England the way he did France. Why didn't he?
Remember the way he allowed the English to escape the killing field of Dunkirk.

And the question remains, what did he know of English upper class that was pro-Nazi?

Hitler made the mistake of halting the panzer divisions miles from Dunkirk. Part of it was to give time for negotiations, and partly for the panzer divisions to rest and undertake critical maintenance.

As for the rest, the British lost pretty much all of their heavy equipment. They escaped with their lives, and little else.

 

[Deadstick]

Operation Barbarossa was reluctantly planned and initiated out of perceived necessity as a preemptive strike because German intelligence discovered Stalin's plan to march West and keep going.
As you know, Communism had been spreading all around the world and represented a formidable

Unlike the moronic canard that "Hitler wanted to conquer the world.", the reality was that the Soviets did have the manpower and resources overwhelm at least Europe and the Balkans.

After all, the Soviets and the British invaded Iran in 1941 and the main reason that the early stages of Barbarossa were so successful is because the Soviet troops were in offensive positions and ready to march West on "M- Day" (Mobilization Day; 6 August 1941).

I'm unaware of anyone in the German High Command or officer corps who didn't know of Napoleon's grotesque folly or felt confidant about an easy victory against the Soviets.

I've read the Wannsee Meeting minutes in the original German and while there was discussion of moving people to the East, there was no indication of pending military action like Barbarossa.

"Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War"

Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War

The controversy surrounding the origins of the Nazi-Soviet War in 1941, namely over the issue of whether or not Stalin intended to launch an offensive against Nazi Germany that year, has produced a contentious debate between revisionist (i.e. those...

www.inquiriesjournal.com

EXCERPT " He [Victor Suvorov] cites a lack of defensive preparations, such as the construction of fortified lines and anti-tank ditches, and notes their deployment in hidden areas (such as woods) as evidence of the intention of the soviet leadership to conceal an imminent offensive operation.

…Stalin’s desire to attack Nazi Germany in 1941 with an analysis of soviet foreign policy during the 1930s. They contend that Stalin believed in the concept of world revolution, and that the Second World War provided Stalin an opportunity to extend soviet influence throughout Europe. Mel'tiukhov, for instance, asserts that, “the USSR’s principal aim was to expand the “front of socialism” across as much territory as possible.” CONTINUED

-----------------------------

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,

There was no Stalin plan to march west that's just Nazi apologist propaganda to try and justify the brutal Barbarossa invasion, as for Hess there were those in Britain on the Conservative right who thought we were on the wrong side in WW2 some were even living in Germany working for the Nazis at least one was executed after the war, i tend to think Hitler gave a green light to Hess who was thought to have been in contact with some of the elite in Britain who had sympathy for the Nazi cause, we will probably never know.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Anytime the European theater of WW 2 becomes the topic of discussion I am reminded of George Orwell's observation :

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."
I am shocked at the number of people who believe that only the "other side" used atrocity propaganda to manipulate and deceive people who are unwilling to think for themselves or apply common sense.

The thing about propaganda is that the propaganda of the vanquished dies at the war's end while the propaganda of the victors is rarely retracted and lives on as something "everybody knows" (aka Groupthink)




Most students of history know the degree to which the English and German royal families intermarried.
England's King George 1, for example, was born in Hanover (Germany) & spoke mainly German.
Briefly put, there was a strong pro German sentiment in England before and even during the war.

Since the feelings were mutual, Hitler ordered his generals to spare the British at Dunkirk.
He said:

"The blood of every single Englishman is too valuable to shed," Hitler said. "Our two people belong together racially and traditionally. That is and always has been my aim, even if our generals can't grasp it." (Kilzer, p.213) (1)

Since news of Communist atrocities concerned many Europeans in the 1920s and 1930s and some historians consider the Spanish Civil War to be the beginning of WW 2, fear of Communism was another factor that led Hitler and Hess to feel that England would be more receptive to this one of many of Hitler's Peace Proposals:


"What the World Rejected: Hitler’s Peace Offers 1933–1940"

Amazon.com

EXCERPT " Written by Germany’s foremost diplomatic historian of the early twentieth century, this work maps out all the numerous times that Adolf Hitler made unconditional offers of peace to all the nations of Europe—and how the major anti-German belligerents, France and Britain, turned down these offers each and every time.

This edition benefits from four new sections which did not appear in the original publication. These are:

- The full text of Hitler’s “Appeal for Peace and Sanity” speech, made before the Reichstag on July 19, 1940, following the fall of France. In that speech, Hitler once again offered unconditional peace to Britain.

This speech was printed in English and dropped by the tens of thousands from German aircraft over Britain. Although nearly half the British cabinet wanted to take up his offer, Churchill’s warmongering put an end to this final offer of peace;"CONTINUED


Finally, it was the British "Cliveden set" that invited Hess to present Hitler's peace proposal to a bellicose and pro war Churchill who was more interested in seizing Germany's colonies and industries than confronting Stalin who somehow marched into the other half of Poland without a whimper of outrage from the Allies.


Thanks,






(1)"Hitler didn't want world war"
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/hitlernowar.html

EXCERPT "Hitler didn't want a world war, and had no stomach for fighting England, according to Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Louis Kilzer, author of "Churchill's Deception" (Simon & Schuster, 1994).

Rudolph Hess, the Deputy Leader of Nazi Germany, was in contact with the Cliveden group and flew to England May 10, 1941 to negotiate peace. According to Kilzer, Hess had Hitler's complete blessings. CONTINUED

Poor misunderstood Adolf. Hes only got obe ball.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

1. On August 17, 1987, Rudolph Hess, at one time the number two Nazi, died of suicide at Spandau Prison, Berlin. He was 93. What was he doing in Scotland?

2.Rudolf Walter Richard Hess was a German politician and a leading member of the Nazi Party in Nazi Germany. Appointed Deputy Führer to Adolf Hitler in 1933, ..

3. On 10 May 1941, Hess made a solo flight to Scotland.

4. There is some disagreement about whether or not Hitler knew Hess was going to England.

5. Do you know what happened 22 June, 1941

View attachment 997147



What is the relationship between item #3 and #5 above?

Great to have a maga intellectual back. Have you been under sedatiion ?