A Minor Mystery Of WWII

[Weatherman2020]

And now for a medial review.

1. Why did Rudolph Hess fly to Scotland? To pursue either a peace treaty between Enland and Germany, or at least a non-agression treaty.


2. Did Hitler authorize the trip, or had Hess gone insane? One cannot forget either that Hitler was in charge of everything that took place in the Reich, or that he knew it would be suicide to enter a two-front war.


3. What was it that made Hitler believe he had a chance to co-opt Britain?
And this is the element that is under-reported.

There was nearly as strong an element of anti-Semitism in Britain as there was in Germany.

4. Were Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson Nazi Sympathizers?​

Having a friendly relationship with Adolf Hitler, many speculated that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were involved in a plot to overthrow the British crown during World War II.

Were Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson Nazi Sympathizers?

Having a friendly relationship with Adolf Hitler, many speculated that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were involved in a plot to overthrow the British crown during World War II.

www.biography.com

5. British archives hiding royal family’s links to anti-Semitism in 1930s, says historian​

Amid row over 7-year-old Elizabeth’s ‘Nazi salute,’ German historian Karina Urbach says documentation on monarchy’s connections to Hitler is being withheld, may well have been destroyed​

British archives hiding royal family’s links to anti-Semitism in 1930s, says historian

Amid row over 7-year-old Elizabeth's 'Nazi salute,' German historian Karina Urbach says documentation on monarchy's connections to Hitler is being withheld, may well have been destroyed

www.timesofisrael.com

6. "Significant Jewish migration from Eastern Europe in the years prior to World War I saw some antisemitic opposition, which would result in increasingly restrictive immigration laws. An emerging fascist movement in the 1930s, which launched antisemitic campaigns, was accompanied by a government policy of restricting the inflow of Jewish refugees from Nazi controlled territories. Notwithstanding sympathy for the Jews following the Holocaust, immigration controls to Mandatory Palestine were maintained, while Zionist attacks on British forces in Palestine caused some resentment and would trigger anti-Jewish riots in 1947."

Antisemitism in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And, of course the same for FDR.

In all fairness 1933 Germany was only at a crossroads. Churchill was even quoted as saying they were at a crossroads around that time. Germany was on the upswing and Germans living better. So a 7 year old doing the salute at that time means nothing.

 

[westwall]

And now for a medial review.

1. Why did Rudolph Hess fly to Scotland? To pursue either a peace treaty between Enland and Germany, or at least a non-agression treaty.


2. Did Hitler authorize the trip, or had Hess gone insane? One cannot forget either that Hitler was in charge of everything that took place in the Reich, or that he knew it would be suicide to enter a two-front war.


3. What was it that made Hitler believe he had a chance to co-opt Britain?
And this is the element that is under-reported.

There was nearly as strong an element of anti-Semitism in Britain as there was in Germany.

4. Were Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson Nazi Sympathizers?​

Having a friendly relationship with Adolf Hitler, many speculated that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were involved in a plot to overthrow the British crown during World War II.

Were Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson Nazi Sympathizers?

Having a friendly relationship with Adolf Hitler, many speculated that the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were involved in a plot to overthrow the British crown during World War II.

www.biography.com

5. British archives hiding royal family’s links to anti-Semitism in 1930s, says historian​

Amid row over 7-year-old Elizabeth’s ‘Nazi salute,’ German historian Karina Urbach says documentation on monarchy’s connections to Hitler is being withheld, may well have been destroyed​

British archives hiding royal family’s links to anti-Semitism in 1930s, says historian

Amid row over 7-year-old Elizabeth's 'Nazi salute,' German historian Karina Urbach says documentation on monarchy's connections to Hitler is being withheld, may well have been destroyed

www.timesofisrael.com

6. "Significant Jewish migration from Eastern Europe in the years prior to World War I saw some antisemitic opposition, which would result in increasingly restrictive immigration laws. An emerging fascist movement in the 1930s, which launched antisemitic campaigns, was accompanied by a government policy of restricting the inflow of Jewish refugees from Nazi controlled territories. Notwithstanding sympathy for the Jews following the Holocaust, immigration controls to Mandatory Palestine were maintained, while Zionist attacks on British forces in Palestine caused some resentment and would trigger anti-Jewish riots in 1947."

Antisemitism in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And, of course the same for FDR.

I don't know what point you are trying to make. It is well known that the American intelligencia were progressive as hell. They loved mussolini, and praised Stalins "strength" when he murdered millions during collectivization.

The American progressive movement has ALWAYS been fascist.

So what are you meandering toward?

 

[Picaro]

How did you get through school by using the words "total rubbish" in defense of a political argument? Go for it Picaro , defend your political beliefs.

It was in the papers then, whitehall.

FDR was elected 4 times, by the survivors of the Republican caused Great Depression and the WW II generation. Say it, man! lol

He wasn't elected by Stalin, he wasn't elected by commies, he wasn't elected by Chinese, he was elected by Americans. Your claim he prolonged the Depression is so silly and false you have to lie about it all the time. The fact is his election almost immediately started it on the rise, and by 1937 GDP was back to 1920's levels and rising, with a small slump in 1937-1938 over the Supreme Court battles, then back to rising again. That was before 'WW II spending'.

4 times, he was elected 4 times. Say it loud. lol

 

[Picaro]

In all fairness 1933 Germany was only at a crossroads. Churchill was even quoted as saying they were at a crossroads around that time. Germany was on the upswing and Germans living better. So a 7 year old doing the salute at that time means nothing.

1935 t0 1938 was Hitler's heyday re the German economy, the construction of the Autobahn being his trophy project. After that the economy started slipping badly and the desperation and demonizations of 'outsiders' began in earnest along with the invasions..

 

[Picaro]

How did you get through school by using the words "total rubbish" in defense of a political argument? Go for it Picaro , defend your political beliefs.

How do you keep from gagging every time you trash FDR with your patently false nonsense?

 

[Picaro]

Herbert Hoover was a 'Progressive' too, something the right studiously avoids acknowledging. So was Teddy Roosevelt. It's a myth that only Democrats were progressives then.

 

[Picaro]

There was no Stalin plan to march west that's just Nazi apologist propaganda to try and justify the brutal Barbarossa invasion, as for Hess there were those in Britain on the Conservative right who thought we were on the wrong side in WW2 some were even living in Germany working for the Nazis at least one was executed after the war, i tend to think Hitler gave a green light to Hess who was thought to have been in contact with some of the elite in Britain who had sympathy for the Nazi cause, we will probably never know.

lol more rubbish. Stalin had massed his entire Army on the western borders, prepping for an invasion. He had abandoned building defenses in depth in favor of an offensive policy against Germany. You're even more dishonest than Whitehall.

 

[Grau]

So the point of all this fake 'history' is to claim the Nazis were poor hapless innocent victims of FDR and Churchill? Apparently, which is why it deserves to be laughed at and mocked.

Only gullible morons and children laugh at and mock facts they're too ignorant to refute.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

If memory serves, Hitler intended to invade Russia in May, but lost a month by diverting time, attention and manpower to pulling Mussolinis chestnuts out of the fire.

With the extra 4 weeks, would the drive to Moscow have succeeded?

Man plans, Gd laughs

Another stellar OP and thread by PC

 

[Deadstick]

lol more rubbish. Stalin had massed his entire Army on the western borders, prepping for an invasion. He had abandoned building defenses in depth in favor of an offensive policy against Germany. You're even more dishonest than Whitehall.

Bollocks!! if he had the Nazis would not have just walked in with Barbarossa, stop rewriting history, the Soviets wanted a defence pact with the west before the war against the Nazi threat but were refused one.

 

[westwall]

If memory serves, Hitler intended to invade Russia in May, but lost a month by diverting time, attention and manpower to pulling Mussolinis chestnuts out of the fire.

With the extra 4 weeks, would the drive to Moscow have succeeded?

Man plans, Gd laughs

Another stellar OP and thread by PC

Yes, they would have reached Moscow. There was a recon unit that actually did, in fact, make it to the outskirts of Moscow.

However, occupying Moscow doesn't give you the win.

Napoleon found that out.

 

[westwall]

Bollocks!! if he had the Nazis would not have just walked in with Barbarossa, stop rewriting history, the Soviets wanted a defence pact with the west before the war against the Nazi threat but were refused one.

The Germans didn't just walk in. They captured most of the western armies over a period of months.

They just had no idea that Stalin had an eastern army that he could bring west.

Stalin and Hitler were ALLIES when they co-began WWII, remember they BORH invaded Poland.

Now, ask yourself, why did the western allies declare war on Germany, but NOT on the USSR?

 

[Picaro]

Yes, they would have reached Moscow. There was a recon unit that actually did, in fact, make it to the outskirts of Moscow.

However, occupying Moscow doesn't give you the win.

Napoleon found that out.

Moscow wasn't a transportation hub when Napoleon took it. Railroad networks didn't exist then, and of course Moscow was within striking distance of some of the big industrial plants as well as an open shot all the down the Soviet defensive line to the south. The Soviets had no where else to retreat. People keep forgetting how long it took for the Soviets to get supplied enough to launch any major offensives that could break out until Kursk. Hint: The Germans stayed there for a long time.

Battle of Moscow, battle fought between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union from September 30, 1941 to January 7, 1942,

Battle of Kursk, (July 5–August 23, 1943)

Something in those dates sink in here?

 

[westwall]

Moscow wasn't a transportation hub when Napoleon took it. Railroad networks didn't exist then, and of course Moscow was within striking distance of some of the big industrial plants as well as an open shot all the down the Soviet defensive line to the south. The Soviets had no where else to retreat. People keep forgetting how long it took for the Soviets to get supplied enough to launch any major offensives that could break out until Kursk. Hint: The Germans stayed there for a long time.

Battle of Moscow, battle fought between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union from September 30, 1941 to January 7, 1942,

Battle of Kursk, (July 5–August 23, 1943)

Something in those dates sink in here?

You seem to live in a vacuum. The Soviets moved their factories east, away from the Germans.

Had Moscow fallen, the Soviets would have simply built a new rail hub away from German reach.

Brute Force, and Massive Effort, are hallmarks of the Soviet way of war.

 

[Oddball]

The reason Hitler never invaded England.

Duhh....You cannot win a modern combined arms battle without air superiority.

 

[Oddball]

For myself, the question has always been 'why did Hitler continue with a suicidal Operation Barbarossa if he didn't get a positive response from Hess/the Brits?'

He must have known what Napoleon faced in Russia.

But I am religious, and see an explanation there.

IMO, not the real question (s).

Why did Hitler refuse strategic withdrawals along overextended fronts, like Stalingrad?

Why did Hitler delay battles that were very winnable in the present moment, like Kursk?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Yes, they would have reached Moscow. There was a recon unit that actually did, in fact, make it to the outskirts of Moscow.

However, occupying Moscow doesn't give you the win.

Napoleon found that out.

They were always going to be outmanned and outgunned vs the USSR.

That's why they needed the Brits to either join them fighting the USSR or at least make peace

Maybe taking the oilfields in the Caucuses first then dealing with Moscow later -- clearly the Lord had other plans

 

[westwall]

They were always going to be outmanned and outgunned vs the USSR.

That's why they needed the Brits to either join them fighting the USSR or at least make peace

Maybe taking the oilfields in the Caucuses first then dealing with Moscow later -- clearly the Lord had other plans

The reality is if they don't get Stalin, they don't win. And he had a lot of country to run to.

So long as he was alive the USSR isn't surrendering. Add to that the German arrogance, and the fact they launched barbarossa with one months reserve of fuel and ammunition, and you realize that Germany was never going to beat the USSR.

 

[Oddball]

They were always going to be outmanned and outgunned vs the USSR.

That's why they needed the Brits to either join them fighting the USSR or at least make peace

Maybe taking the oilfields in the Caucuses first then dealing with Moscow later -- clearly the Lord had other plans

Maintaining a minimal front across the broadest front in history would have helped immensely.

Germany had technical and tactical superiority...Air supremacy against horribly overmatched Soviet air force was a given....Attrition was really the only tool Stalin had, and Hitler played into it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I don't know what point you are trying to make. It is well known that the American intelligencia were progressive as hell. They loved mussolini, and praised Stalins "strength" when he murdered millions during collectivization.

The American progressive movement has ALWAYS been fascist.

So what are you meandering toward?

What are you talking about????
We had no intelligence outside of the continental USA.


What is interesting in a conversation that is heading toward indicting the Democrats as having a spy system, a police state……but when it comes to a CIA, we didn’t have one under the President who led America to the Left….Franklin Roosevelt.



That’s because Stalin was beloved by FDR, and he couldn’t imagine needing spies in Russia.



Novelist Daniel Silva puts it this way:

" You see, before the war, we had no intelligence service-not areal one, anyway...our intelligence operation inside the Soviet Union consisted of a couple of guys from Harvard and a teletype machine. When we suddenly found ourselves nose to nose with the Russian bogeyman, we didn’t know shit about him. His strengths, his weaknesses, his intentions. And what’s more, we didn’t know how to find out. That another war was imminent was a foregone conclusion. And what did we have? F**k all. No networks, no agents. Nothing. We were lost, wandering in the desert. We needed help. ...General Reinhard Gehlen, head of the German General Staff’s Foreign Armies East branch, Hitler’s chief spy on the Russian front.

“Gehlen was the answer to our prayers. The man had spent a career spying on the Soviet Union, and now he was going to show us the way. We brought him into this country.... . He told us what we wanted to hear. Stalinism was an evil unparalleled in human history. Stalin intended to subvert the countries of western Europe from within and then move against them militarily. Stalin had global ambitions. Be not afraid, Gehlen told us. I have networks, I have sleepers and stay-behind cells. I know everything there is to know about Stalin and his henchmen. Together, we will crush him.”



We used Nazi intel post war just as we used Nazi rocket scientists.




Reinhard Gehlen

As head of the Gehlen Organization he sought cooperation with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), formed in 1947, resulting in the Gehlen Organization ultimately becoming closely affiliated with the CIA.
Wikipedia.