Zone1 A Messianic Jew gives a testimony

[Votto]

Would most Jews here say that they read very little of the OT like this individual?

If not, would you say that most Jews spend very little time reading it?

 

[Hafar1014]

Since there is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis there is no reason for Jesus to exist.
It was Gods plan all along that Adam eats the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. It cant be sin to follow Gods plan. The plan was the moral teaching of man.
Adam had no idea what sin was BEFORE he ate the fruit. Therefor he cant sin you have to know your sinning with intent.

Genesis is a beautiful allegory far in advance of its time that explains mans inherent need for meaning (let there be enlightenment) before there was sun. The importance of free will and moral values, mans ability to evolve form the lower to high state of existence, Gods plan to grant humanity autonomy when Adam passed the Trial for mans Freedom.

Christians turned this into a story of fear sin the Fall of man added satan who doesnt exist to create dogma for the myth of Jesus.

Lucifer is the bearer of light. Not the devil Christians didnt want enlightened followers they want fearful followers easy to control.
I read it in Hebrew

 

[Votto]

Since there is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis there is no reason for Jesus to exist.
It was Gods plan all along that Adam eats the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. It cant be sin to follow Gods plan. The plan was the moral teaching of man.
Adam had no idea what sin was BEFORE he ate the fruit. Therefor he cant sin you have to know your sinning with intent.

Genesis is a beautiful allegory far in advance of its time that explains mans inherent need for meaning (let there be enlightenment) before there was sun. The importance of free will and moral values, mans ability to evolve form the lower to high state of existence, Gods plan to grant humanity autonomy when Adam passed the Trial for mans Freedom.

Christians turned this into a story of fear sin the Fall of man added satan who doesnt exist to create dogma for the myth of Jesus.

Lucifer is the bearer of light. Not the devil Christians didnt want enlightened followers they want fearful followers easy to control.
I read it in Hebrew

Christians started the notion to fear falling into wickedness?

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

​

​ Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.​ ​

​

Try again.

You failed to answer my question, and that is, do you read the OT at all and do your Jewish friends read it?

 

[Votto]

I think that the Christian persecution of the Jews in times past has done much damage to Jews coming to Christ, at least the testimony given indicates this.

How many Jews here feel the same?

 

[rosends]

Would most Jews here say that they read very little of the OT like this individual?

If not, would you say that most Jews spend very little time reading it?

religious Jews are commanded to study the bible text so we do, starting with children at age 3. We read it, we question it, we study it, we review it. A Jew who goes in to it not having read much or studied it is going to get led astray.

 

[Votto]

Since there is no original sin or fall of man in Genesis there is no reason for Jesus to exist.
It was Gods plan all along that Adam eats the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. It cant be sin to follow Gods plan. The plan was the moral teaching of man.
Adam had no idea what sin was BEFORE he ate the fruit. Therefor he cant sin you have to know your sinning with intent.

Genesis is a beautiful allegory far in advance of its time that explains mans inherent need for meaning (let there be enlightenment) before there was sun. The importance of free will and moral values, mans ability to evolve form the lower to high state of existence, Gods plan to grant humanity autonomy when Adam passed the Trial for mans Freedom.

Christians turned this into a story of fear sin the Fall of man added satan who doesnt exist to create dogma for the myth of Jesus.

Lucifer is the bearer of light. Not the devil Christians didnt want enlightened followers they want fearful followers easy to control.
I read it in Hebrew

Was the Great Flood allegory?

Was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah allegory?

Was the sacrificing of animals to cover sins allegory?

Was the Holy of Holies in the Temple allegory?

 

[Hafar1014]

Christians started the notion to fear falling into wickedness?

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

​

​ Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.​ ​

​

Try again.

You failed to answer my question, and that is, do you read the OT at all and do your Jewish friends read it?

I have one in front of me I learned it in Hebrew and supported by with the actual text and you cant refute me with some out of context quotes which are meaningless.
There is no mention of original in anywhere in the Pentateuch use the correct name. Christians claim God sent his son to die for Original sin which never existed. Therefore Jesus never existed he is in fact an idol a craven image.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

It was Gods plan all along that Adam eats the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. It cant be sin to follow Gods plan.

It was NOT "God's Plan." Genesis makes that clear.

You're doing what everyone else does -- reading into it what you want it to say

 

[Votto]

religious Jews are commanded to study the bible text so we do, starting with children at age 3. We read it, we question it, we study it, we review it. A Jew who goes in to it not having read much or studied it is going to get led astray.

You can say the same about Christians.

I find that the testimony given by this Messianic Jew is interesting as he was confronted with a verse in Exodus 20

And God spoke all these words:

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

“You shall have no other gods before me.

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,; but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

He then came to the realization that God was nowhere in the mix in his life. It then got him searching.

 

[Votto]

I have one in front of me I learned it in Hebrew and supported by with the actual text and you cant refute me with some out of context quotes which are meaningless.
There is no mention of original in anywhere in the Pentateuch use the correct name. Christians claim God sent his son to die for Original sin which never existed. Therefore Jesus never existed he is in fact an idol a craven image.

Are there people who do not sin then?

 

[alang1216]

I think that the Christian persecution of the Jews in times past has done much damage to Jews coming to Christ, at least the testimony given indicates this.

How many Jews here feel the same?

Jews have never 'come to Christ' in great numbers, either at the birth of Christianity or now. I don't think Jews could accept the reinterpretation of their theology or the Biblical evidence Christians presented. Christian persecution of the Jews in times past was because Jews refused to convert, not the cause of it.

 

[Meriweather]

Christians claim God sent his son to die for Original sin which never existed. Therefore Jesus never existed he is in fact an idol a craven image.

Is it your claim sin and disobedience never existed and still do not exist today?

 

[rosends]

You can say the same about Christians.

why would I? The question asked about Jews

I find that the testimony given by this Messianic Jew is interesting as he was confronted with a verse in Exodus 20

And God spoke all these words:

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

“You shall have no other gods before me.

“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,; but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

He then came to the realization that God was nowhere in the mix in his life. It then got him searching.

so he found a failing in himself and decided to jump ship based on that. OK. Those of us who actually study don't generally find that same failing in ourselves.

 

[Hafar1014]

It was NOT "God's Plan." Genesis makes that clear.

You're doing what everyone else does -- reading into it what you want it to say

It absolutely is Gods plan if you can read Hebrew its easy to see. If you cant you have no idea what it means. The tree was created to attract man "pleasant to the sight and good for food J.H.".
The command not to eat the fruit is the test for free will. Disobedience is the way to test free will. Thus begins the moral discipline of man.
Free will must have morals so begins Gods teaching of man and the elevation of man. This cant be a sin in any way

The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, Hebrew Text and English translation, Dr. J.H. Hertz, Late Chief Rabbi of the British Empire London Soncino Press 1961

 

[Votto]

why would I? The question asked about Jews

so he found a failing in himself and decided to jump ship based on that. OK. Those of us who actually study don't generally find that same failing in ourselves.

Well, no, he read the scriptures in the OT along with it for the first time.

I'm guessing that scripture being cited in your average Synagogue does not include passages like Isaiah 53 or Daniel 9:23-25.

 

[Hafar1014]

Is it your claim sin and disobedience never existed and still do not exist today?

Thats a very strange question
According to the allegory man was created with free will but no moral awareness. Literally an animal with divine potential {Likeness). God then taught man morals and tested him by allowing him to reject or choose God. That was the trial for mans freedom. In the end Adam chose to come to God of his own free will. God didnt want us to be like ants or bees.

Christianity got this all wrong and creasted the Fasll oif man and originals sin which isnt described or mentioned. They created a devil that never existed.
Lucifer is the bearer of light (enlightenment)

 

[rosends]

Well, no, he read the scriptures in the OT along with it for the first time.

I'm guessing that scripture being cited in your average Synagogue does not include passages like Isaiah 53 or Daniel 9:23-25.

why? What do you know about what is read in the "average" synagogue or why? Or what we teach in school (we teach both Isaiah and Daniel)

we have no fear of those passages. Why wouldn't we cite them? The talmud cites from both books and we study that also.

 

[Cassandro]

I think this video deals more with Jewish predispositions about Jesus than about Christianity. Forgive the political reference, but it seems to be akin to TDS in that whatever Christians are for, Jews must be against.

Why is it almost impossible for most Jews (at least on this forum) to acknowledge Jesus as an historical personage who arguably fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the "Old Testament?" Why is it heretical to even speak of him?

I do not think such a recognition necessarily leads to belief in the Christian doctrines that were developed after his death, so I am fascinated by the "north and south" (i.e., all or nothing) attitude that the speaker initially expressed in response to his daughter's new beliefs.

For a people with a history of outstanding intellectual achievements, this Jewish resistance to even considering any of Jesus' reported teachings seems to be a curious anomaly.

 

[Donald H]

There's a better way than flaming each other to find the truth.

Modern and more intelligent Christians and Atheists have come to understand that the bibles are not the truth.

It's not sinful to believe that the bible lies for a good purpose. Our ding has instructed everybody several times over that the bibles are nothing more than allegorical teaching.

And too, spamming of religions can be kept out of the religion section please?

 

[rosends]

Why is it almost impossible for most Jews (at least on this forum) to acknowledge Jesus as an historical personage who arguably fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the "Old Testament?"

claiming existence is OK, I guess, but to say that he filled messianic prophecies is to misunderstand the prophecies.

Why is it heretical to even speak of him?

who said it is? I speak about Jesus all the time.

For a people with a history of outstanding intellectual achievements, this Jewish resistance to even considering any of Jesus' alleged teachings seems to be a curious anomaly.

Or maybe we know enough of them to know how wrong they are.