A Lot of Murders. . . in cities with strict gun control

[Roadrunner]

It isn't very hard to simply leave the city limits and purchase a gun and then re-enter the city. So I'm not sure what your point is that you are trying to make.

You may also have a horse cart problem here, perhaps these cities have some of the strictest gun control laws BECAUSE they have some of the worst violence rates.

It is illegal to own the gun, what makes you think making more laws that are ignored will help? By the way even if you passed a new law today that outlawed all guns criminals would still have them and still be able to get them.




More Hate Facts.

Bad on ya!

 

[Spoonman]

Thanx to Political Pistachio blog.

of course, they know the victims will have no way to protect themselves

 

[idb]

Then explain it to me.
Why does the US have the highest private gun ownership in the world and one of the highest murder rates.

Not true. The US doesn't make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Many of the countries with higher murder rates than the US have very few firearms in the hands of the general public, many have outright bans on civilian firearm ownership.

For all our firearms, we should have the highest murder rate, but we're not even close. Kinda blows your argument out of the water.

You're right, I posted that myself somewhere, the US isn't anywhere near the top as far as murders is concerned.
That still doesn't change the question though, if the US has the greatest gun ownership in the world by some margin, why isn't it at the lowest rate of murders?
In fact, it should be considerably less than Japan for example which has some of the strictest controls in the world...but it isn't.

I'm not trying to make an argument, I'm trying to understand yours.

 

[eflatminor]

Then explain it to me.
Why does the US have the highest private gun ownership in the world and one of the highest murder rates.

Not true. The US doesn't make the top 100 list of countries by murder rate. Many of the countries with higher murder rates than the US have very few firearms in the hands of the general public, many have outright bans on civilian firearm ownership.

For all our firearms, we should have the highest murder rate, but we're not even close. Kinda blows your argument out of the water.

You're right, I posted that myself somewhere, the US isn't anywhere near the top as far as murders is concerned.
That still doesn't change the question though, if the US has the greatest gun ownership in the world by some margin, why isn't it at the lowest rate of murders?

Because people kill, not firearms...or any inanimate object for that matter.

In fact, it should be considerably less than Japan for example which has some of the strictest controls in the world...but it isn't.

Obviously the Japanese culture produces people that don't tend to commit murder. Our culture does...but not nearly to the extend of other countries, many of which have outlawed firearm ownership. The point being, the murder rate has nothing to do with firearm ownership.

On the other hand, Japan does have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. In fact, the combined murder/suicide rate in Japan is exactly the same as in the US. They kill themselves more and others less. Some Americans (those in a few counties for the most part) tend to kill others more, themselves less. Why? I don't really know, but one thing for sure, it has nothing to do with guns.

I'm not trying to make an argument, I'm trying to understand yours

My argument is that the murder rates vary considerably among different countries and cultures. Some countries with strict gun control have low murder rates, some have among the highest. The point is that there is no correlation with firearm ownership.

With that being the case, there is no logical reason to restrict law abiding citizens from protecting themselves against the armed thugs that are willing to do harm to others. To do so only gives the bad guys an advantage and that's insane.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Its absurd to use the loose or strict gun control laws of a city or state to debate the merits of gun control in fighting crime, when neighboring cities and states have very different gun laws.

NYC has a much lower murder rate than cities in Texas that have much looser gun laws.

But Newark has a much higher murder rate than NYC even though they have just as strict handgun laws.

You simply cannot use gun laws in a corrolation/causation argument about crime.

At least not in the USA.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Fact: Great Britain banned ownership of handguns in 1994.

Murder rates in Britain are at a 20 year low, since that happened.

 

[eflatminor]

You simply cannot use gun laws in a corrolation/causation argument about crime.

True.

What we do know is that America's Black culture drives the homicide rate. According to the Department of Justice, the murder rate for Black offenders varied from 50 murders per 100,000 people in 1980, down to 25 per 100,000 in 2008.

During this same time period, White offenders varied from 5 murders per 100,000 in 1980 and remained pretty flat until 2008, where it stood at a rate of 3.4.

This means that over time, Blacks have committed murder at a rate 7 to 10 times more per capita than Whites.

If you're looking for corrolation/causation arguments about murder rates, it's found in the culture of the American Black community. I don't know why, but the facts are the facts.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

 

[Hyrcanus]

True.

What we do know is that America's Black culture drives the homicide rate. According to the Department of Justice, the murder rate for Black offenders varied from 50 murders per 100,000 people in 1980, down to 25 per 100,000 in 2008.

During this same time period, White offenders varied from 5 murders per 100,000 in 1980 and remained pretty flat until 2008, where it stood at a rate of 3.4.

This means that over time, Blacks have committed murder at a rate 7 to 10 times more per capita than Whites.

If you're looking for corrolation/causation arguments about murder rates, it's found in the culture of the American Black community. I don't know why, but the facts are the facts.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

Centuries of persecution and discrimination can leave long-lasting affects.

 

[eflatminor]

Fact: Great Britain banned ownership of handguns in 1994.

Murder rates in Britain are at a 20 year low, since that happened.

Yes, but murder rates are also declining around the world. The same is true in America, where gun ownership (and especially conceal carry permits) are up.

Another fact: After England banned firearms, their violent crime rate skyrocketed and it is now higher than the US:

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

The facts do you support your supposition.

 

[Hyrcanus]

The facts do you support your supposition.

The fact is that no logical causation/corrolation relationship can be drawn between rates of gun ownership and violent crime.

There are soooo many other factors that come into play, like unemployment, poverty, discrimination, education, fatherless-households, etc..

 

[eflatminor]

True.

What we do know is that America's Black culture drives the homicide rate. According to the Department of Justice, the murder rate for Black offenders varied from 50 murders per 100,000 people in 1980, down to 25 per 100,000 in 2008.

During this same time period, White offenders varied from 5 murders per 100,000 in 1980 and remained pretty flat until 2008, where it stood at a rate of 3.4.

This means that over time, Blacks have committed murder at a rate 7 to 10 times more per capita than Whites.

If you're looking for corrolation/causation arguments about murder rates, it's found in the culture of the American Black community. I don't know why, but the facts are the facts.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

Centuries of persecution and discrimination can leave long-lasting affects.

Well, as a Jew, I fail to see the logic in what you're trying to imply. But that said, I do not claim to know why Blacks commit murder at the rate they do, but one thing we know for sure, they tend to kill other Blacks. How "centuries of persecution" cause a people to murder their own, I do not know.

 

[eflatminor]

The facts do you support your supposition.

The fact is that no logical causation/corrolation relationship can be drawn between rates of gun ownership and violent crime.

There are soooo many other factors that come into play, like unemployment, poverty, discrimination, education, fatherless-households, etc..

Then why did you bring it up?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Well, as a Jew, I fail to see the logic in what you're trying to imply. But that said, I do not claim to know why Blacks commit murder at the rate they do, but one thing we know for sure, they tend to kill other Blacks. How "centuries of persecution" cause a people to murder their own, I do not know.

The persecution and discrimination Jews experienced is VERY different than what black Americans experienced.

Our families were left infact. We had compatriots who could help us build new lives in the USA. We have a culture that prides education and literacy. We were on the side of the winning armies after WW2.

You simply cannot compare.

Though, there was a lot more Jewish criminal activity in the USA during the 1910s and 1920s, when most of us were poor immigrants.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The facts do you support your supposition.

The fact is that no logical causation/corrolation relationship can be drawn between rates of gun ownership and violent crime.

There are soooo many other factors that come into play, like unemployment, poverty, discrimination, education, fatherless-households, etc..

And yet you would deny a GIVEN right to everyone because it makes you FEEL good. Murder rates are so low as to be meaningless. Murder by firearm are even lower. Accidental deaths are less than 1000 a year.

There is NO EVIDENCE that banning supposed assault weapons would have ANY effect on mass murders nor on overall crime rates or overall murders. NONE. Yet you would ban them and 30 round magazines cause it makes you FEEL better.

The 2nd does not say you can do so. You want those weapons and those magazines? Change the Amendment. No law will pass the Constitutional right to deny these things to law abiding citizens.

You want every state to report their adjudicated mentally ill to a national data base? make that law the NRA won't oppose it if that is all it does. The problem is you retards keep adding illegal, unconstitutional clauses to the bills.

 

[Hyrcanus]

And yet you would deny a GIVEN right to everyone because it makes you FEEL good...

....Yet you would ban them and 30 round magazines cause it makes you FEEL better...

....You want every state to report their adjudicated mentally ill to a national data base? make that law the NRA won't oppose it if that is all it does. The problem is you retards keep adding illegal, unconstitutional clauses to the bills.

Who the **** do you think you're talking to?

Take that accusatory tone out of your mouth before you hurt yourself.

 

[eflatminor]

Well, as a Jew, I fail to see the logic in what you're trying to imply. But that said, I do not claim to know why Blacks commit murder at the rate they do, but one thing we know for sure, they tend to kill other Blacks. How "centuries of persecution" cause a people to murder their own, I do not know.

The persecution and discrimination Jews experienced is VERY different than what black Americans experienced.

Our families were left infact. .

Not the case with my family, but I understand your point.

We have a culture that prides education and literacy.

Perhaps you've nailed the problem with Black culture in the USA.

We were on the side of the winning armies after WW2.

So were Blacks.

You simply cannot compare.

Sure I can. Both groups, as you stated, experience "Centuries of persecution and discrimination". Both have slavery in their past. That said, I agree there are differences.

Though, there was a lot more Jewish criminal activity in the USA during the 1910s and 1920s, when most of us were poor immigrants.

And within a few decades, a whole lot less criminal activity. Blacks have been around since before the founding of the country.

Again, I don't claim to know why the murder rate is so high among Blacks, but I sure as hell can say it hasn't a damn thing to do with firearms.

 

[Hyrcanus]

So were Blacks.

Sure I can. Both groups, as you stated, experience "Centuries of persecution and discrimination". Both have slavery in their past. That said, I agree there are differences.

And within a few decades, a whole lot less criminal activity. Blacks have been around since before the founding of the country.

Again, I don't claim to know why the murder rate is so high among Blacks, but I sure as hell can say it hasn't a damn thing to do with firearms.

blacks came back to America with Jim Crow.

Jews came to an America with lots of Jewish agencies to help them assimilate and find good jobs and good housing.

Jews were slaves for a maximum of 7 years during the Nazi regime.

Blacks were slaves for centuries and then had another century of slave-like existence in the South and massive discrimination in the North.

Jewish immigrants came to a USA full of millions of jobs that were NOT open to native blacks.

You simply CANNOT compare the black American to the Jewish American experience. They are worlds apart.

By the time discrimination against blacks finalyl ended, all the manufacturing jobs and other low-skilled jobs started to dry up. Blacks never had a long period of lots of good middle-class jobs, like the Jews did.

 

[eflatminor]

So were Blacks.

Sure I can. Both groups, as you stated, experience "Centuries of persecution and discrimination". Both have slavery in their past. That said, I agree there are differences.

And within a few decades, a whole lot less criminal activity. Blacks have been around since before the founding of the country.

Again, I don't claim to know why the murder rate is so high among Blacks, but I sure as hell can say it hasn't a damn thing to do with firearms.

blacks came back to America with Jim Crow.

Jews came to an America with lots of Jewish agencies to help them assimilate and find good jobs and good housing.

Jews were slaves for a maximum of 7 years during the Nazi regime.

Blacks were slaves for centuries and then had another century of slave-like existence in the South and massive discrimination in the North.

Jewish immigrants came to a USA full of millions of jobs that were NOT open to native blacks.

You simply CANNOT compare the black American to the Jewish American experience. They are worlds apart.

By the time discrimination against blacks finalyl ended, all the manufacturing jobs and other low-skilled jobs started to dry up. Blacks never had a long period of lots of good middle-class jobs, like the Jews did.

Tell you what, whatever the reason, we know Blacks are the group that drives the murder rate in America. You're free to speculate as to why. But please, let's not blame inanimate objects. Deal?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Tell you what, whatever the reason, we know Blacks are the group that drives the murder rate in America. You're free to speculate as to why. But please, let's not blame inanimate objects. Deal?

they are also the major victim of black murder and crime.

while their brothers from Africa who immigrate to the USA do much better in education, employment, and crime rates. which proves its a cultural and not a racial issue.

 

[eflatminor]

Tell you what, whatever the reason, we know Blacks are the group that drives the murder rate in America. You're free to speculate as to why. But please, let's not blame inanimate objects. Deal?

they are also the major victim of black murder and crime.

while their brothers from Africa who immigrate to the USA do much better in education, employment, and crime rates. which proves its a cultural and not a racial issue.

Agreed. It isn't guns, it isn't the color of their skin...it's the culture.