2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

[8537]

But didn't you say no actuarial would offer flood insurance ?

Yes, I did. Perhaps you should read a bit closer. Hint: Not all homes in flood plains were built after 1989.

Just looking for the linkage.

Thanks.

Linkage to what?

 

[Claudette]

So essentially we, the taxpayer, can be left holding the bag.

Oh yeah. Works for me. NOT

 

[Listening]

bwhahaha a history book written for 5th graders went over your head, and the only argument you can come up with is that the book is wrong? man i almost pissed my pants i laughed so hard.

im gonna post the link for everyone to see how dumb you really are.

The Civil War for Fifth Graders

Radford University's website has the link. Who is Radford University you might ask...

The institution now known as Radford University was founded by the Virginia General Assembly in the spring of 1910. The State Normal and Industrial School for Women at Radford grew out of a late nineteenth-century effort to expand Virginia's public school system and prepare a sufficient number of teachers. The school was to be located on 33 acres in east Radford known as the "Heth Grove." On October 3, 1911, Dr. John Preston McConnell was appointed president of the institution.
Radford University is committed to maintaining the highest ethical standards and to upholding the public’s trust. We recognize that our behavior affects not only our own individual reputation, but also that of Radford University. Accordingly, this Code of Ethics forms the ethical principles that will guide all members of the university community in all decisions and activities.

just keep digging that hole.....

so tell the world again how the North didnt want a strong central government and how the south didnt want all the power to rest with the states. and tell us all again how the North winning didnt mean that the fed was to be strong.....

Here you go piss-for-brains....

One of several explanations that Madion provided (Federalist #45).

The State governments may be regarded as constituent and essential parts of the federal government; whilst the latter is nowise essential to the operation or organization of the former. Without the intervention of the State legislatures, the President of the United States cannot be elected at all. They must in all cases have a great share in his appointment, and will, perhaps, in most cases, of themselves determine it. The Senate will be elected absolutely and exclusively by the State legislatures. Even the House of Representatives, though drawn immediately from the people, will be chosen very much under the influence of that class of men, whose influence over the people obtains for themselves an election into the State legislatures. Thus, each of the principal branches of the federal government will owe its existence more or less to the favor of the State governments, and must consequently feel a dependence, which is much more likely to beget a disposition too obsequious than too overbearing towards them. On the other side, the component parts of the State governments will in no instance be indebted for their appointment to the direct agency of the federal government, and very little, if at all, to the local influence of its members.

The number of individuals employed under the Constitution of the United States will be much smaller than the number employed under the particular States. There will consequently be less of personal influence on the side of the former than of the latter. The members of the legislative, executive, and judiciary departments of thirteen and more States, the justices of peace, officers of militia, ministerial officers of justice, with all the county, corporation, and town officers, for three millions and more of people, intermixed, and having particular acquaintance with every class and circle of people, must exceed, beyond all proportion, both in number and influence, those of every description who will be employed in the administration of the federal system. Compare the members of the three great departments of the thirteen States, excluding from the judiciary department the justices of peace, with the members of the corresponding departments of the single government of the Union; compare the militia officers of three millions of people with the military and marine officers of any establishment which is within the compass of probability, or, I may add, of possibility, and in this view alone, we may pronounce the advantage of the States to be decisive. If the federal government is to have collectors of revenue, the State governments will have theirs also. And as those of the former will be principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous, whilst those of the latter will be spread over the face of the country, and will be very numerous, the advantage in this view also lies on the same side. It is true, that the Confederacy is to possess, and may exercise, the power of collecting internal as well as external taxes throughout the States; but it is probable that this power will not be resorted to, except for supplemental purposes of revenue; that an option will then be given to the States to supply their quotas by previous collections of their own; and that the eventual collection, under the immediate authority of the Union, will generally be made by the officers, and according to the rules, appointed by the several States. Indeed it is extremely probable, that in other instances, particularly in the organization of the judicial power, the officers of the States will be clothed with the correspondent authority of the Union. Should it happen, however, that separate collectors of internal revenue should be appointed under the federal government, the influence of the whole number would not bear a comparison with that of the multitude of State officers in the opposite scale. Within every district to which a federal collector would be allotted, there would not be less than thirty or forty, or even more, officers of different descriptions, and many of them persons of character and weight, whose influence would lie on the side of the State.

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

 

[Polk]

How so, the militia act was in 1792, after the constitution...not part of it.

So the Founding Fathers passed a bill they considered unconstitutional? We're not talking about a time far removed. We're talking under a decade after.

In the historical context I understand why they passed the act. However, the constition gave them no authority to pass such an act requiring people to buy guns.

Do you think that act would pass the supreme court today?

We were in a time of war then and they used that, just like Bush and CO used the war on terror to pass the patriot act (unconstitutional), to pass something that otherwise would not be allowed.

The authority flows out of their power to organize and maintain the militias. I don't think such an act would pass muster today, on the grounds that it doesn't have a rational basis (hunting rifles wouldn't do much against an enemy tank), but the provision wouldn't be unconstitutional on its face.

The United States was not engaged in a war in 1792, unless you want to count the Whiskey Rebellion as a war.

 

[Listening]

Hey Syphon,

Do you see health care in that list ?

 

[Polk]

So the government forcing people to buy health insurance is unconstitutional, but forcing them to open a brokerage account at Fidelity isn't? What makes these two things different?

people do not choose to participate in the health care market, since every person will need health care at some point in their life. not by choice, but by necessity.
you dont choose to have a stroke, you dont choose to have a heart attack, you dont choose to get in a car accident, you dont choose to get cancer, you dont choose be born with a disability, you dont choose to have a genetic defect.

"Congress had a rational basis for concluding that the minimum coverage provision is essential to the Affordable Care Act's larger reforms to the national markets in health care delivery and health insurance," he said. "The provision regulates active participation in the health care market, and in any case, the Constitution imposes no categorical bar on regulating inactivity."
Judge James Graham -- a Reagan appointee -- agreed

show me where everyone will participate in the financial markets? show me any other service that people will use without choice.

Garbage.

People can chose to never have health insurance nor utilize health care services.

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

 

[Syphon]

bwhahaha a history book written for 5th graders went over your head, and the only argument you can come up with is that the book is wrong? man i almost pissed my pants i laughed so hard.

im gonna post the link for everyone to see how dumb you really are.

The Civil War for Fifth Graders

Radford University's website has the link. Who is Radford University you might ask...

The institution now known as Radford University was founded by the Virginia General Assembly in the spring of 1910. The State Normal and Industrial School for Women at Radford grew out of a late nineteenth-century effort to expand Virginia's public school system and prepare a sufficient number of teachers. The school was to be located on 33 acres in east Radford known as the "Heth Grove." On October 3, 1911, Dr. John Preston McConnell was appointed president of the institution.
Radford University is committed to maintaining the highest ethical standards and to upholding the public’s trust. We recognize that our behavior affects not only our own individual reputation, but also that of Radford University. Accordingly, this Code of Ethics forms the ethical principles that will guide all members of the university community in all decisions and activities.

just keep digging that hole.....

so tell the world again how the North didnt want a strong central government and how the south didnt want all the power to rest with the states. and tell us all again how the North winning didnt mean that the fed was to be strong.....

Here you go piss-for-brains....

One of several explanations that Madion provided (Federalist #45).

The State governments may be regarded as constituent and essential parts of the federal government; whilst the latter is nowise essential to the operation or organization of the former. Without the intervention of the State legislatures, the President of the United States cannot be elected at all. They must in all cases have a great share in his appointment, and will, perhaps, in most cases, of themselves determine it. The Senate will be elected absolutely and exclusively by the State legislatures. Even the House of Representatives, though drawn immediately from the people, will be chosen very much under the influence of that class of men, whose influence over the people obtains for themselves an election into the State legislatures. Thus, each of the principal branches of the federal government will owe its existence more or less to the favor of the State governments, and must consequently feel a dependence, which is much more likely to beget a disposition too obsequious than too overbearing towards them. On the other side, the component parts of the State governments will in no instance be indebted for their appointment to the direct agency of the federal government, and very little, if at all, to the local influence of its members.

The number of individuals employed under the Constitution of the United States will be much smaller than the number employed under the particular States. There will consequently be less of personal influence on the side of the former than of the latter. The members of the legislative, executive, and judiciary departments of thirteen and more States, the justices of peace, officers of militia, ministerial officers of justice, with all the county, corporation, and town officers, for three millions and more of people, intermixed, and having particular acquaintance with every class and circle of people, must exceed, beyond all proportion, both in number and influence, those of every description who will be employed in the administration of the federal system. Compare the members of the three great departments of the thirteen States, excluding from the judiciary department the justices of peace, with the members of the corresponding departments of the single government of the Union; compare the militia officers of three millions of people with the military and marine officers of any establishment which is within the compass of probability, or, I may add, of possibility, and in this view alone, we may pronounce the advantage of the States to be decisive. If the federal government is to have collectors of revenue, the State governments will have theirs also. And as those of the former will be principally on the seacoast, and not very numerous, whilst those of the latter will be spread over the face of the country, and will be very numerous, the advantage in this view also lies on the same side. It is true, that the Confederacy is to possess, and may exercise, the power of collecting internal as well as external taxes throughout the States; but it is probable that this power will not be resorted to, except for supplemental purposes of revenue; that an option will then be given to the States to supply their quotas by previous collections of their own; and that the eventual collection, under the immediate authority of the Union, will generally be made by the officers, and according to the rules, appointed by the several States. Indeed it is extremely probable, that in other instances, particularly in the organization of the judicial power, the officers of the States will be clothed with the correspondent authority of the Union. Should it happen, however, that separate collectors of internal revenue should be appointed under the federal government, the influence of the whole number would not bear a comparison with that of the multitude of State officers in the opposite scale. Within every district to which a federal collector would be allotted, there would not be less than thirty or forty, or even more, officers of different descriptions, and many of them persons of character and weight, whose influence would lie on the side of the State.

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

im not even gonna read your argument until you prove that the north didnt want a strong fed and south didnt want state to have the power.

i also want you to address Fed 10 and Madison advocating for a strong federal government. until you do that your on ignore. you cant even have a decent debate with your 4th grade skills.

oh btw THE SOUTH LOST the Civil War and the North got the strong Fed they wanted!

 

[Jarhead]

[

Who provides the money for any Govt program??

Your an idiot.

Well, in the case of the National Flood Insurance Program the vast majority of the money is "provided" by the clients who hold flood insurance. Any amount beyond the ability of the fund to pay is covered by the taxpayers and lenders, which is why we have an NFIP instead of private flood insurance.

FYI, if you are going to call someone an idiot you should at least employ proper English. It's not "your an idiot". It's "you are an idiot" or, "You're an idiot".

One can also say:

An idiot is what you are.
I see you as an idiot.
Bright, you are not.
When God gave out brains, you were waiting on line for the free healthcare.
You were dropped on your head when you were younger, weren't you.
You are as dumb as nails.
You are as dumb as a door knob
You failed the exam to becoime the town idiot.

 

[Syphon]

people do not choose to participate in the health care market, since every person will need health care at some point in their life. not by choice, but by necessity.
you dont choose to have a stroke, you dont choose to have a heart attack, you dont choose to get in a car accident, you dont choose to get cancer, you dont choose be born with a disability, you dont choose to have a genetic defect.

"Congress had a rational basis for concluding that the minimum coverage provision is essential to the Affordable Care Act's larger reforms to the national markets in health care delivery and health insurance," he said. "The provision regulates active participation in the health care market, and in any case, the Constitution imposes no categorical bar on regulating inactivity."
Judge James Graham -- a Reagan appointee -- agreed

show me where everyone will participate in the financial markets? show me any other service that people will use without choice.

Garbage.

People can chose to never have health insurance nor utilize health care services.

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

yup and if you were dying in the street and a cop or firefighter or decent human being saw you, they would take you to a hospital and you would get treatment no matter what your ability to pay is.

 

[Jarhead]

people do not choose to participate in the health care market, since every person will need health care at some point in their life. not by choice, but by necessity.
you dont choose to have a stroke, you dont choose to have a heart attack, you dont choose to get in a car accident, you dont choose to get cancer, you dont choose be born with a disability, you dont choose to have a genetic defect.

"Congress had a rational basis for concluding that the minimum coverage provision is essential to the Affordable Care Act's larger reforms to the national markets in health care delivery and health insurance," he said. "The provision regulates active participation in the health care market, and in any case, the Constitution imposes no categorical bar on regulating inactivity."
Judge James Graham -- a Reagan appointee -- agreed

show me where everyone will participate in the financial markets? show me any other service that people will use without choice.

Garbage.

People can chose to never have health insurance nor utilize health care services.

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

why does government see healthcare as something ALL should have and thus enacted a law to ensure all do at a reasonable cost...

But....

They do not feel the same about housing....despite the fact that people freeze to death in the streets of places like Chicago and New York?

 

[Syphon]

Garbage.

People can chose to never have health insurance nor utilize health care services.

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

why does government see healthcare as something ALL should have and thus enacted a law to ensure all do at a reasonable cost...

But....

They do not feel the same about housing....despite the fact that people freeze to death in the streets of places like Chicago and New York?

you can choose where to live. you can choose to not have a job.

but do you choose to get hit by a car? do you choose to have a heart attack? do you choose to have a stroke? do you choose to break your arm? do you choose to get cancer? do you choose to have a child born with a disability? do you choose to have a genetic condition?

 

[Jarhead]

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

why does government see healthcare as something ALL should have and thus enacted a law to ensure all do at a reasonable cost...

But....

They do not feel the same about housing....despite the fact that people freeze to death in the streets of places like Chicago and New York?

you can choose where to live. you can choose to not have a job.

but do you choose to get hit by a car? do you choose to have a heart attack? do you choose to have a stroke? do you choose to break your arm? do you choose to get cancer? do you choose to have a child born with a disability? do you choose to have a genetic condition?

interesting...

 

[Jarhead]

Garbage.

People can chose to never have health insurance nor utilize health care services.

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

yup and if you were dying in the street and a cop or firefighter or decent human being saw you, they would take you to a hospital and you would get treatment no matter what your ability to pay is.

yep...and the ER would take you no matter what your ability to pay is.

And if it isd found you cant pay, thyey7 dont charge you...they send the bill to the federal governement.

And the government pays.

And we the taxpayer were OK with that system. It met the need to ensure all got medical care when they needed it...but did not forece anyone to do anything they did not want to do.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

In fact, it makes the problem worse by holding the public hostage to insurance companies when what we really need is less insurance on the base cases with more for the extreme cases. I need insurance for cancer, not birth control. Missing limbs, not a broken arm. When you get a cold there is no reason to have the insurance company pay for the doctor visit - it is asinine.

I actually kind of agree with this. But here's the thing, this is how the doctors make their money.

I had an operation that is usually considered "elective", but I had a medical reason for it. My doctor charged my insurance company $32,000. A co-worker tried to get the same operation, but in her case, it really was elective and the insurance company wouldn't cover it. Same Doctor. Same procedure. They did it for her for $17,000.

That's because of market forces drives cost down (not to mention affordability). We NEED to go to a system that allows competitive pricing.

Yeah....sure they do.......

How Insurance Companies Fight Recession
HERE​

 

[The Rabbi]

People have been peddling this for years, but there is no evidence to support it. One of the common claims is that blacks were more likely to suffer from hypertension. Turns out it's purely a relic of social factors. Blacks in Africa have some of the lowest rates of hypertension in the world.

Another factoid exploded.

Blacks had higher rates for hypertension-related death than whites in all age groups (Figure 2). From 1981 through 1998, average annual increases in the hypertension-related death rate were 10.4% among blacks and 7.9% among whites for persons aged 85 years and older, 5.9% among blacks and 3.6% among whites for those aged 75-84 years, and 3.2% among blacks and 1.4% among whites for persons aged 65-74 years. Death rates remained relatively constant for persons aged 45-64 years (average annual changes of +0.7% for blacks and decrease of -1.0% for whites). By 1989-1998, blacks had 1.4 (p <0.05) times the death rates of whites at ages &#8805;85 years, 2.1 (p <0.01) times the rate at 75-84 years, 2.8 (p <0.01) times the rate at 65-74 years, and 4.2 (p <0.01) times the rates at ages 45-64 years.

Medscape: Medscape Access
Regardless of the factors it is the case.

Exploded? That doesn't undermine my statement in the least. All you've shown is that the rates are higher among blacks, not that it's higher because they're black, which was your original claim.

Can you offer another explanation?

 

[The Rabbi]

Show up where? You can go to the ER for emergency treatment, but what about chronic illness?

OK, Ypou asked a question and I answered it.
Now you want to change the debate.
There are community clinics that treat chronic illness.
Now you'll ask about meds. Dems will not be satisfied until everything remotely "medical" is "free."

I didn't change the debate. I asked about care. You're the one that wanted to pretend emergency care is the beginning and end of treatment. Community clinics are not an answer for chronic illness. They treat colds and sprained ankles, but they don't have the resources to provide treatment for diabetes and cancer. That's today, much less in a world where more employers are dropping coverage.

That's what Medicaid was designed for.
Any other asinine comments?

 

[The Rabbi]

Another factoid exploded.

Medscape: Medscape Access
Regardless of the factors it is the case.

Exploded? That doesn't undermine my statement in the least. All you've shown is that the rates are higher among blacks, not that it's higher because they're black, which was your original claim.

hmm...Maybe it has something to do with incomes, not genetics.

In the latest study, researchers found that lower household income was most strongly associated with elevated blood pressure.

Low Income, Less Education Tied to High Blood Pressure in Young Adults - DukeHealth.org

I believ e you will still find disparity between whites and blacks on any income level. The rates for Asians in similar income levels are substantially lower I think.

 

[The Rabbi]

Congress has the authority to regulate interstate commerce. This regulation is part of the rational basis of Congress to advance a Constitutional end.

Regulating interstate commerce and forcing individual citizens to buy insurance from a private corporation or face penalties/fines are not the same.

How do you feel about the Ryan plan? What about private accounts for Social Security?

How is that a rebuttal to anything he wrote?

 

[Syphon]

Sure, in the same sense people don't have to pay taxes, because they could always not work and starve to death in the streets.

yup and if you were dying in the street and a cop or firefighter or decent human being saw you, they would take you to a hospital and you would get treatment no matter what your ability to pay is.

yep...and the ER would take you no matter what your ability to pay is.

And if it isd found you cant pay, thyey7 dont charge you...they send the bill to the federal governement.

And the government pays.

And we the taxpayer were OK with that system. It met the need to ensure all got medical care when they needed it...but did not forece anyone to do anything they did not want to do.

many tax payers arent ok with this system. hence the need to make everyone pay something. the reason rates keep going up is due to unpaid medical bill which then get spread across the premiums of those who actually pay.

you would think the right would support making people pay the services they use...

 

[The Rabbi]

i challenge you to prove that health insurance is not interstate commerce. when you travel from state to state, does your health insurance not follow you? or do you have to purchase a different product for each state which you travel through?

who is saying it isnt interstae commerce.

It is.

What does that have to do with Government forcing you to buy something under penalty of law?

When has that ever happened before?

And to add....we now ALSO have government forcing a bhusiness owner to offer a service even if it doesnt want to.

When has THAT ever happened before?

What service are businesses being forced to offer?

Health insurance.