YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JimBowie1958]

I have given far more facts thaty you, J B.

Again, your opinon is not fact, Starkey. When will you grasp that simple fact?

I mean if you have mentioned any facts, you could have repeated them here as examples, but since you have not, you repeat nothing but only make a bald unsupported claim once again.

Starkey = bullshitter of legend

Your silly far right extremist Christian dominionism is anti-American in principle and scope and false in narrative.

If these opinions I share with so many other Americans is so silly then why do you get your panties in such a wad, little twat-boy?

Washington and the Founders would have shipped you to British lines.

More bullshit.

A. I would have proudly volunteered to go to the lines, no one would have had to send me. Something I doubt you could ever fathom.

B. You would have been sent to latrine digging detail as you are apparently fixated with so much bullshit.

 

[JimBowie1958]

J B describes himself with his own words:

And I see you are a judgemental, bigoted fucktard who doesnt know jack shit about Christianity. Ass hole.

And Starkey flings more shit to the wind.

 

[JimBowie1958]

J B does not "know how to discuss a subject anymore using fact and reason".

Really?

Then what was your fact-based reasonable response to my observation that:
1. All the American states at the time were run by Christians and appealed tot he Christian God.
2. Most of the States at the time had some kind of favored religion, for example the Anglican/Episcopalian church in Virginia, the Congregationalists in Massachusettes, Quakerism in Pennsylvania, Presbyterians in New York.
3. Only the federal government was set up as a secular goverenment from the ground up and that was mostly to keep it from interfering with the states own pet religions, all of them Christian.

What were your responses? I must have missed them as I filtered out the rest of your bullshit?

Oh wait, I forgot, Starkey does not give facts and Starkey doe snot respond to toher peoplse uestions because Starkey is a but-hurt GOPe libtard basquerading as some kind of psuedo-conservative neocon.

Fuck you.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Jim Bowie makes unsupported statements then accuses his betters of doing exactly what he is doing.

Son, your silly insignificant minority will change nothing.

*ywan*

That is about all you got these days...bald factless opinion you try to spin as fact.

Jake, havent you heard that people can search the internet and find facts for themselves?

People dont have to take the word of liars like you about what is true or not any more.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

The white invaders of Indian lands introduced Christianity to those lands.
They had to murder a lot of the Indians to do so but I'm sure that, along with the rapes, murdering Indian children and so on, were entirely justified.

Why do you have such ignorant bigotry against white Americans?

Most Amerindians assimilated into American society at the lower social levels, economically, socially and most converted to Christianity.

Of course I am wasting my time as you are apparently just being a stupid ass troll.

Its sad and frightening that racist cretins like you still exist.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The white invaders of Indian lands introduced Christianity to those lands.
They had to murder a lot of the Indians to do so but I'm sure that, along with the rapes, murdering Indian children and so on, were entirely justified.

Here is the abridged version.

The expansion of europeans into the Americas was different than muslim invasions (not that you would be interested in truth). The Indians were not easily oppressed, and won many battles. The Spanish, fresh from Moorish invasions and techniques, tried the oppression of the Indians in the Caribbean, only to discover the Indians would run into the jungle when they tried to enslave them. The Spanish then turned to the most ruthless peoples they knew of: the muslims, to buy African slaves (that muslims and other Africans had kidnapped/conquered) to farm tropical and semi-tropical crops. The Indians went into the jungles and tried to evade the Spanish. On the Continents (North and South America), the Spanish used superstitious beliefs or war to deal with the Indians. The areas settled by the Spanish were either thru cooperation with the Indians or conquerring them.

When the English came to North America, they first settled with cooperation of the Indians (if it wasn't for the assistance of the Indians, many more English would have died). Once word got back to England that the Indians were "friendly" and that there was plenty of room, the English that were being persecuted for their religious beliefs (sound familiar, one who belongs to the persecutors?) volunteered to settle in this distance wilderness. Many of these religious groups set out to be cooperative with the Indian populations and befriend them. They were set onto distant shores with provisions carried with them. That was it. There were implications that the ships might return at some point in the future, but there were no guarentees. Most of these religious groups used morals to deal with the Indians and establish trade and friendly relationships with them. Using "Christian" morals, they gained the Indians' trust where many Indians lived in or close to these communities.

Once the "Christians" established communities, others followed. The French traveled the rivers for hundreds (even thousands of miles). They made trading posts where rivers met and the Indians allowed it (they were outnumbered greatly). The British and the French politicians used military and ruthless men to battle over territiories. Both militaries taught the Indians some terrible torture methods. Both militaries tried to take territory by force and did. They gave "favorites" territory; in many cases, the favorites were ruthless, power hungry men that held little with any religion. Some of these men cared little for Indians or their own countrymen. They killed or had people killed that interferred with any threats to their territory.

It was after this that the English (and the other small populations) declared independence. The "British gov't" was causing problems with the Indian populations, the French, and the Spanish), and taxing the "colonists" for the trouble.

The most famous Indian problems came after the country was settled in the east, and the western expansion started. The "barons" (cattle, railroad, mining, timber) were largely responsible for using greed over consideration to expand kingoms (wanted to be) into the western territiories. The US gov't was manipulated to support them.

Let' compare that to islam invasion:
America: less than 150 years of expansion
Islam: going on 1500 years of expansion
America: trying to work with Indians (now) and giving support to assist Indian reservations
Islam: still trying to murder, subjugate, or convert
America: no terrorist attacks on Indians in decades
Islam: terrorist attacks, daily
America: Indians can worship as they choose with equal rights under the law
Islam: no equal rights under the law or Shariah
America: no walls around homes because people respect each other's freedoms
Islam: if you want it tomorrow, build a wall around it
America: children are cherished and laws are made to protect children, specifically
Islam: children are molested and raped, using the quran as an excuse

You were saying?

Islam is a system that promotes deceit, destruction, death, decay and dust. Christianity promotes a moral society where each person is respected as a product of the Lord. In every instance where Shariah is practiced, people are suffering, terribly. In every instance where Christianity is practiced, people are productive, compassionate, considerate, and educate their children encouraging truth.

While I disagree with your summation of Islam (the things you describe were typical of warfare int he Old World), you are spot on with the rest.

Of course you do realize you will never persuade these liberalss. Only a very few of them like Old Rocks ever really thinks about any of this discussion. The rest of the liberals are only interestedin posturing, showing their loyalty to liberal dieology to other liberals of similar bent, and making a general ass of themselves. That is why many of us simply dismiss them as libtards as they cant think and are thus not inspired to even try.

Indofred is not only a libtard but a racist anti-Christian bigot as well, so you are really wasting your time with him.

Post for the sake of other conservatives, interested people, or lurkers who are just reading to get some ideas for further investigation. That is sufficient to make it all worthwhile.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The facts been shared, you simply don't agree.

But you support "kenyanism" and "birferism" and "Christian dominionism," which automatically condemns you as unworthy of intellectual respect.

No, Christian dominionism will fail in the next two election cycles, and be merely a laughable trivia question in the future on game shows.

And Jake Starkey returns to toss more bullshit, make unwarranted claims of fact and be a general gaping ass hole.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Jim Bowie is a racist bigot, a Christian dominionist of a tiny fringe sect, and a person who clearly does not understand the American narrative.

Oh, did you get your feeling hurt, Jakey-poo?

Get used to it, it comes from being the ignorant, bigotted shit-head that you are.

Where do I make racist claims?

Where do I espouse bigotry?

Lol, you sling this slander and will not reply in any meaningful way.

Go back your booze, Jakey.

 

[logical4u]

1. The Text of the Constitution Does Not Say the United States Is a Christian Nation
2. The Founders’ Political Beliefs Would Not Have Led Them to Support the Christian-Nation Idea
3. The Key Founders Were Not Conservative Christians and Likely Would Not Have Supported an Officially Christian Nation
4. Shortly After the Constitution Was Ratified, Conservative Ministers Attacked It Because It Lacked References to Christianity
5. During the Post-Civil War Period, a Band of Politically Powerful Pastors Tried Repeatedly to Amend the U.S. Constitution to Add References to Jesus Christ and Christianity



And lastly, Article 11 on the Treaty of Tripoli, which went into effect on June 10, 1797.
"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

So, the OP is wrong.

Beginning in 1630 as many as 20,000 Puritans emigrated to America from England to gain the liberty to worship God as they chose. Most settled in New England, but some went as far as the West Indies. Theologically, the Puritans were "non-separating Congregationalists." Unlike the Pilgrims, who came to Massachusetts in 1620, the Puritans believed that the Church of England was a true church, though in need of major reforms. Every New England Congregational church was considered an independent entity, beholden to no hierarchy. The membership was composed, at least initially, of men and women who had undergone a conversion experience and could prove it to other members. Puritan leaders hoped (futilely, as it turned out) that, once their experiment was successful, England would imitate it by instituting a church order modeled after the New England Way.

For some decades Jews had flourished in Dutch-held areas of Brazil, but a Portuguese conquest of the area in 1654 confronted them with the prospect of the introduction of the Inquisition, which had already burned a Brazilian Jew at the stake in 1647. A shipload of twenty-three Jewish refugees from Dutch Brazil arrived in New Amsterdam (soon to become New York) in 1654. By the next year, this small community had established religious services in the city. By 1658 Jews had arrived in Newport, Rhode Island, also seeking religious liberty. Small numbers of Jews continued to come to the British North American colonies, settling mainly in the seaport towns. By the time of the Declaration of Independence, Jewish settlers had established several thriving synagogues.

The Quakers (or Religious Society of Friends) formed in England in 1652 around a charismatic leader, George Fox (1624-1691). Many scholars today consider Quakers as radical Puritans, because the Quakers carried to extremes many Puritan convictions. They stretched the sober deportment of the Puritans into a glorification of "plainness." Theologically, they expanded the Puritan concept of a church of individuals regenerated by the Holy Spirit to the idea of the indwelling of the Spirit or the "Light of Christ" in every person. Such teaching struck many of the Quakers' contemporaries as dangerous heresy. Quakers were severely persecuted in England for daring to deviate so far from orthodox Christianity. By 1680, 10,000 Quakers had been imprisoned in England, and 243 had died of torture and mistreatment in the King's jails. This reign of terror impelled Friends to seek refuge in New Jersey in the 1670s, where they soon became well entrenched. In 1681, when Quaker leader William Penn (1644-1718) parlayed a debt owed by Charles II to his father into a charter for the province of Pennsylvania, many more Quakers were prepared to grasp the opportunity to live in a land where they might worship freely. By 1685 as many as 8,000 Quakers had come to Pennsylvania. Although the Quakers may have resembled the Puritans in some religious beliefs and practices, they differed with them over the necessity of compelling religious uniformity in society.

The first group of Germans to settle in Pennsylvania arrived in Philadelphia in 1683 from Krefeld, Germany, and included Mennonites and possibly some Dutch Quakers. During the early years of German emigration to Pennsylvania, most of the emigrants were members of small sects that shared Quaker principles--Mennonites, Dunkers, Schwenkfelders, Moravians, and some German Baptist groups--and were fleeing religious persecution. Penn and his agents encouraged German and European emigration to Pennsylvania by circulating promotional literature touting the economic advantages of Pennsylvania as well as the religious liberty available there. The appearance in Pennsylvania of so many different religious groups made the province resemble "an asylum for banished sects." Beginning in the 1720s significantly larger numbers of German Lutherans and German Reformed arrived in Pennsylvania. Many were motivated by economic considerations.

Although the Stuart kings of England did not hate the Roman Catholic Church, most of their subjects did, causing Catholics to be harassed and persecuted in England throughout the seventeenth century. Driven by "the sacred duty of finding a refuge for his Roman Catholic brethren," George Calvert (1580-1632) obtained a charter from Charles I in 1632 for the territory between Pennsylvania and Virginia. This Maryland charter offered no guidelines on religion, although it was assumed that Catholics would not be molested in the new colony. In 1634 two ships, the Ark and the Dove, brought the first settlers to Maryland. Aboard were approximately two hundred people. Among the passengers were two Catholic priests who had been forced to board surreptitiously to escape the reach of English anti-Catholic laws. Upon landing in Maryland the Catholics, led spiritually by the Jesuits, were transported by a profound reverence, similar to that experienced by John Winthrop and the Puritans when they set foot in New England. Catholic fortunes fluctuated in Maryland during the rest of the seventeenth century, as they became an increasingly smaller minority of the population. After the Glorious Revolution of 1689 in England, the Church of England was legally established in the colony and English penal laws, which deprived Catholics of the right to vote, hold office, or worship publicly, were enforced. Until the American Revolution, Catholics in Maryland were dissenters in their own country, living at times under a state of siege, but keeping loyal to their convictions, a faithful remnant, awaiting better times.

Virginia was settled by businessmen--operating through a joint-stock company, the Virginia Company of London--who wanted to get rich. They also wanted the Church to flourish in their colony and kept it well supplied with ministers. Some early governors sent by the Virginia Company acted in the spirit of crusaders. Sir Thomas Dale (d. 1619) considered himself engaged in "religious warfare" and expected no reward "but from him on whose vineyard I labor whose church with greedy appetite I desire to erect." During Dale's tenure, religion was spread at the point of the sword. Everyone was required to attend church and be catechized by a minister. Those who refused could be executed or sent to the galleys. When a popular assembly, the House of Burgesses, was established in 1619, it enacted religious laws that "were a match for anything to be found in the Puritan societies." Unlike the colonies to the north, where the Church of England was regarded with suspicion throughout the colonial period, Virginia was a bastion of Anglicanism. Her House of Burgesses passed a law in 1632 requiring that there be a "uniformitie throughout this colony both in substance and circumstance to the cannons and constitution of the Church of England." The church in Virginia faced problems unlike those confronted in other colonies--such as enormous parishes, some sixty miles long, and the inability to ordain ministers locally--but it continued to command the loyalty and affection of the colonists. In 1656, a prospective minister was advised that he "would find an assisting, an embracing, a comforting people" in the colony. At the end of the seventeenth century the church in Virginia, according to a recent authority, was prospering; it was "active and growing" and was "well attended by the young and old alike."

America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

Scandinavian Lutherans settled in Delaware while Protestant Scots-Irish found their way into the back country of the Carolinas. At least six of the original colonial attempts were made in the name of religion: Plymouth, Massachusetts, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania.

Read more at Suite101: Religious Diversity in Colonial America: Protestants and Catholics Establish Roots in the Thirteen Colonies | Suite101.com Religious Diversity in Colonial America: Protestants and Catholics Establish Roots in the Thirteen Colonies | Suite101.com
Religious Diversity in Colonial America: Protestants and Catholics Establish Roots in the Thirteen Colonies | Suite101.com

Methodists The tap root of Methodism was a group of Oxford University students, amongst whom were its founders, John and Charles Wesley. Begun within the Anglican Church, Methodists were not fleeing religious persecution from the Church of England when they came to the Mid-Atlantic colonies in the 1730s and ‘40s. When Francis Asbury arrived in 1771, Methodism comprised 1,160 members served by 10 preachers in Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. Asbury promoted circuit riding and thus increased American Methodism to 214,000 by the time of his death in 1816.

Lutherans In no other American Christian denomination did national origin play such an important role in its history as the Lutheran Church. Members came from Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and Norway. The Lutherans settled on the East Coast and American Midwest, and celebrated worship services in their native tongues. From their first foothold in 1619, Lutherans began to establish a sum total of 150 synods. In the late 19th century, they began to merge as the Americanization process eliminated the language barriers that had previously kept them separate. After many previous mergers, three of the larger Lutheran bodies came together in 1988 to become the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), which currently counts more than half of the Lutheran membership in the U.S. A more conservative branch is the Missouri Synod.

Quakers Founded in 1647 by English preacher George Fox, the Society of Friends emphasized a direct relationship with God. One’s conscience, not the Bible, was the ultimate authority on morals and actions. William Penn, whose writings about freedom of conscience (while imprisoned in England) formed the basis of religious understanding for Quakers around the world. Penn established what would later be called Pennsylvania, an American religious sanctuary in the late 17th century. He believed in religious toleration, fair trade with Native Americans, and equal rights for women. Quakers did not have a clergy or dedicated church buildings, and therefore held their meetings in which participants deliberated silently on issues and spoke up when “the Spirit moved them.” Dressed in plain clothes, Quakers preferred a simple life over one enjoyed by the aristocracy of England and the burgeoning merchant class in the colonies. They also shared an abhorrence of violence.

By John Adams
We have now, it Seems a National Bible Society, to propagate King James's Bible, through all Nations. Would it not be better to apply these pious Subscriptions, to purify Christendom from the Corruptions of Christianity; than to propagate those Corruptions in Europe Asia, Africa and America! ... Conclude not from all this, that I have renounced the Christian religion, or that I agree with Dupuis in all his Sentiments. Far from it. I see in every Page, Something to recommend Christianity in its Purity and Something to discredit its Corruptions. ... The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my Religion.
Letter to Thomas Jefferson, November 4, 1816


History of Religion in America

You can thank the Quakers and their belief that all people are equal for the USA not having a "king", women's rights, and the issue of slavery being fought and overcome.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Jim Bowie is a racist bigot, a Christian dominionist of a tiny fringe sect, and a person who clearly does not understand the American narrative.

I believe him to be a stormfront member also.

Lol, can you EVER get anything CORRECT?

You do realize that your fantasy about who I am has nothing to do wth the facts, right?

But since you have no respect for fact, or truth or anything else generally resembling a virtue, go fuck yourself...some more.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Jim Bowie is a follower of fascist neo-Christian white racist ideology.

Jim Bowie is a racist bigot, a Christian dominionist of a tiny fringe sect, and a person who clearly does not understand the American narrative.

I believe him to be a stormfront member also.

Again, Starkey throws slanderous lies and bullshit, not being able to distinguish between these things and fact, reason or thruth.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Hitler was baptized Catholic and Stalin went to seminary.

And both renounced their faiths, Hitlere privately before his inner circle and Stalin did publicaly when he joined the Bolshevics.

Now where did Jefferson or Franklin do such? Nowhere and in fact affirm Christianity repeatedly. Their only problem was with organized religion, which is totally justifiable, especially then.

You are a neo-fascist pretend Christian who is merely a white racist.

You really cant understand people of other opinion, so you have to jam that square peg into triangular holes because that MUST be what it is since it isnt the round peg you expect.

Sober up, Jakey-poo

 

[JimBowie1958]

How many real christians use such perverted cussing?

Define 'real Christian', and then define what cussing is and why you think it contrary to Christian behavior, then maybe I will have enough of your thought pinned down to essplain this shit to you.

 

[logical4u]

Well then if this is a Christian nation, why does the US rightwinged religious christians object to welfare so much and want to wage war?

Welfare does not target "widows and orphans". It allows the gov't to make a voting block that will vote according to political leaders, not what is best for the country.
Defending yourself is a "Christian/Judeo" principal, only in non-Christian societies are people punished for defending themselves. War is part of defense. Can you show where the USA has taken over another country (by right of a war victory) in the last one hundred years?

 

[JakeStarkey]

JimBowie continues to cry and sigh, whine and pine, and just not tell the truth.

It's a shame that Christian dominionists have it wrong, but that is what it is.

He is what he is and the God-fearing majority of Americans will just have to carry him along.

 

[JimBowie1958]

notice how the Church and the Christian faith was not exterminated by Stalin, nor Hitler.

Despite their best efforts. Stalin tried to do it prior to realizing he needed the church to fight the Nazis when they invaded. Hitler hoped to subordinate the church to his Nazi state and thus kill it be robbing it of all its original meaning. It would have been nothing more than a wing of the Nazi party when he was done, similar to the libtard view of religious toelrance inthis country today. We either fit in with your secular vision of utopia or we are worthy of the gas chambers like Father Maximillian Kolbe or execution like Deitrch Bonhoffer.

 

[logical4u]

Well then if this is a Christian nation, why does the US rightwinged religious Christians object to welfare so much and want to wage war?

Christian's do not object to welfare. They object to the way Government sets up the welfare system that keeps generations of people in that system and broke up the 2 parent's to help raise their children.

War will always be around, because there is evil out there in the world.

So if I ask for your cloak you would give it to me?

Do you "need" it?

 

[logical4u]

Obama is a Muslim as much as Reaper and Pale.

Jake I'm actually and Infidel and proud of it. I guess I didn't convey well the sarcasm behind the posts. Islam trys to take credit for everything including the founding of the USA even though it's Obvious that the country was founded Primarily by Christians, my family being some of those Christians here since 1630-5. I also have a few preachers in my family past and present so I totally agree with you. Exposing Islam's lies is one of my favorite pastimes. Americans support and defend Islam as a legit religion when they really haven't got a clue what it's all about. It's a cult at best and a bad one at that. I agree Obama is Muslim and using Takeya(taquia) to cover it up. I have no love for Islam and never will.

Well to bad you live in a ntion that believes in religious freedom, but then again, most religions are not tolerant of others religion.
But that is not what jesus said to do, he said to love your enemies, i see you are not a christian.

Calling out the truth is not "hating". Loving your enemies does not include lying for them.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truly, you are asking this?

In the last 100 years, we repeatedly invaded nations in our own hemisphere in the pursuit of nationalism not justice.

There was no reason to wage war in Iraq at all.

Neo-conservatism has nearly turned America into a 3rd rate nation.

Well then if this is a Christian nation, why does the US rightwinged religious christians object to welfare so much and want to wage war?

Welfare does not target "widows and orphans". It allows the gov't to make a voting block that will vote according to political leaders, not what is best for the country.
Defending yourself is a "Christian/Judeo" principal, only in non-Christian societies are people punished for defending themselves. War is part of defense. Can you show where the USA has taken over another country (by right of a war victory) in the last one hundred years?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sounds exactly like what David Barton wants to do: sublimate the narrative and history to a philosophy and belief based on falsehood.

In fact, America is a nation of Christian generally whose government is secular and federal.

notice how the Church and the Christian faith was not exterminated by Stalin, nor Hitler.

Despite their best efforts. Stalin tried to do it prior to realizing he needed the church to fight the Nazis when they invaded. Hitler hoped to subordinate the church to his Nazi state and thus kill it be robbing it of all its original meaning. It would have been nothing more than a wing of the Nazi party when he was done, similar to the libtard view of religious toelrance inthis country today. We either fit in with your secular vision of utopia or we are worthy of the gas chambers like Father Maximillian Kolbe or execution like Deitrch Bonhoffer.