YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JimBowie1958]

The phrase "Christian nation" goes against much of what the USA is all about.

Really?

So is that why several states had official state religions when the Declaration of Independence was signed?

Is that why the Founding Documents of US Legal Code all mention God and religion?

The FEDERAL government was banned from establishing a state church like most European nations had, such as England where the king was also the head of the Church of England. They wanted that ban so that the Federal government could not interfere with their own state religions.

That is why the federal government was kept secular, and nothing else for the most part as each state had a dominant if not formally state endorsed religion of some sort and ALL of them were various denominations of CHRISTIANITY.

Read the state constitutions. EVERY ONE OF THEM speaks from a Christian point of view.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The white invaders of Indian lands introduced Christianity to those lands.
They had to murder a lot of the Indians to do so but I'm sure that, along with the rapes, murdering Indian children and so on, were entirely justified.

Yes we brought Christianity with us. That's the point.

The rest of your post is entirely off topic.

And slanderous racism as well.

But he probably doesnt think it racism if directed at white Christians.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson and Tom Paine and Ethan Allen, among others, would tell Dave Barton, whose latest book was recalled for the same errors he has been making from the first books, that he is full of crap. And you are just as much a do do for believing Barton as you are thinking Obama is a Kenyan.

You are a loon, Pale.

Oh, dear God.

Starkey calling someone a loon. That is rich.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Vikings and Native Americans and Europeans and Africans and all sorts of people founded "America", just not Christians.

Another loon statement.

The OP is plainly about establishing the United States of America, not some vague bullshit notion of 'America' that you have stuck in your tiny brain.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The phrase "Christian nation" goes against much of what the USA is all about.

Those persecuted because of religious beliefs are often the most adamant about religious freedom, thus, the Respect no....lause. This was NEVER a "Chrsitian" nation. Among the Founders, there were more agnostics than of any other 'faith'.

That is a blatant lie. PROVE it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson and Tom Paine and Ethan Allen, among others, would tell Dave Barton, whose latest book was recalled for the same errors he has been making from the first books, that he is full of crap. And you are just as much a do do for believing Barton as you are thinking Obama is a Kenyan.

You are a loon, Pale.

Well Jake, you've spewed your line of crap without as much as a single link or fact. The video is full of facts, just as there is a mountain of proof that obama was born in kenya, and none that he was born in America.

You're a ignorant little twit Jake.

Starkey thinks he is above the need for facts. That is for the little people.

And he is a lying twat, that is also true as well.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Not 'real' Christian, Clayton, not David Barton type of 'Christians.'

Washington et al would not worship with any of these David Barton Christians. Simply tell the ushers to turn "their crazy asses out into the alley".

Another blatant loony lie by Starkey.

Not a link a fact or a reason to support his slander.

He is nothing more than a lying troll.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I have read Barton carefully for a number of years.

He is not a critical thinker, he does not consider all the evidence, and he can't understand that his opinion, based on all the evidence, is a minority one.

And these kinid of general slanders are about all that Starkey can manage for providing fact, reason or substance.

He thinks that regurgitating his stupid ass summaries is reason.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Franklin was not a Christian. Jefferson was not a Christian. Washington, Adams, and Madison were weak Christians, none of them having anything to do with evangelicalism or that sort of stuff.

Barton conveniently ignores all that or skews evidence.

The Vikings may well have landed in North America but didn't impact a lot on it.
The Native Americans were murdered in large numbers and the Africans were mostly slaves.

The Christian invaders were the ones who did the damage.

So start your own thread about that dumb fuck. This thread is about the founding fathers of America being Christians.

Franklin and Jefferson were baptized Christians you fucking liar.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The US was founded as a secular nation. Our founders, having observed the religious wars in Europe, wanted none of that for this nation. A few of our founders were agnostics, foremost among them Franklin, and most of the rest were Diests.

OR, that is the commonly repeated narrative, but if you would read the consitutions of the individual states, The Founding Documents of the federal legal code (NW Ordinace, DoI, Articles of Confederation) it is plain that the Founding Fathers were Christians, mostly Freemasons, and wanted the federal government to stay neutral on religion because most of the states had their own favored religions and some of them had that formally coded into a legal endorsement of a state religon.

The federal government is secular, but the federal government is not the nation. The individual states have always been Christian and they together compose the nation of the US.

 

[there4eyeM]

Real Christians would not have massacred the 'Indians'. Those people who did it may have called themselves Christian, but it is self evident they were not.

Being Christian isn't just saying one is and it isn't by other's saying it, either.

Being baptized a Christian might have weight if it were done as an adult, by consent and voluntary act. Was it in the case of Franklin and Jefferson? I don't know; it is an honest question.

Anyway, my fuller view has already been posted and I will not take up your time with it for repetition's sake.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

That is a lie. Washington was a Christian, as were Jefferson and Franklin and they were among the more secular of the FF.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

Christianity is not a single church but is composed of a multitude of churches, the largest of which by far is Roman Catholicism.

And if they were so anti-Christian and secular then why did they say these things?

http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Yeah all raving athiests who would rush out to kill millions of Christians like Attaturk, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, lol.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OK, Stalin and Hitler were Christians and reflective of Christianity.

Is that the road you want to go?

Franklin was not a Christian. Jefferson was not a Christian. Washington, Adams, and Madison were weak Christians, none of them having anything to do with evangelicalism or that sort of stuff.

Barton conveniently ignores all that or skews evidence.

So start your own thread about that dumb fuck. This thread is about the founding fathers of America being Christians.

Franklin and Jefferson were baptized Christians you fucking liar.

 

[JakeStarkey]

David Barton and his stooges, like Jim Bowie (who is an America Hitler in philosophy) or Pale Rider, ignore the fact that secularism, humanism, and the Enlightenment played a larger role in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution and the American War of Independence than a bunch of podunk proto-envangelical insignficant sects in the colonies.

Facts are facts, and the far right conservative dominionists either don't have them or misinterpret them.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The fact is that the USA is generally a nation of Christians (almost 70% of religious America is some form of Christian).

The fact is that the Founders formed a secular nation.

They formed a secular federal government, which is NOT the nation, but only the federal government of the nation. Each state was founded by Christian leaders and their constitutions reflect that. You are arguing about oranges to the OPs apples.

But you probably know that since your just a troll anyway.

This is what is being taught overwhelmingly in our public schools and institutions of higher learning.

Because the federal education establishment and the teachers unions are run by neoMarxist atheists.

Fact: for Christians, belief or disbelief in evolution is not a salvation issue.

What the fuck does that have to do with the OP?

Fact: for Christians, the USA is a secular nation.

Wrong. You cannot speak of all christians at all, period. Second, Christians themselves have various opinions on the subject.

Fact: for Christians, the old style evangelicalism is growing weaker in strength and numbers and percentage per capital.

Bullshit. 'Old evangelicalism' is a loaded phrase, an ambiguous term that can deny any growing denomination in the Evangelical community is not 'Old Evangelicalism' if it is growing.

More of your bullshit lies over and over again.

 

[JakeStarkey]

JimBowie, for writing a bunch, fails.

America is a secular government and generally a nation of Christians, most of whom disdain the far right conservative evangelicals and funadmentalists.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The white invaders of Indian lands introduced Christianity to those lands.
They had to murder a lot of the Indians to do so but I'm sure that, along with the rapes, murdering Indian children and so on, were entirely justified.

Yes we brought Christianity with us. That's the point.

The rest of your post is entirely off topic.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mahatma Gandhi

He may have been speaking of you, Pale Rider

Or he may have been speaking of you, jack ass.

Ghandi was speaking of Christian governments who had come to control 99% of the nations in the world at the time. It had nothing to do with actual religious Christians you fucking slanderous bigot.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The US was not established AS a Christian nation. It was created in a milieu that was rich in references to and literature concerning Christianity.
The US is not a Christian country. The majority of its population refers to itself as Christian. The two are not synonymous.

The federal government wasnt, but the individual states were and they compose the nation of the US, not the federal government.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sunday is the Christian day of worship.
Muslims have Friday
Jews have Saturday.

In our Constitution it says we will do no Government business on Sundays.
We have Christian Chaplains open with prayer every day.
Congress did have bibles printed up to be taught in our schools.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address

These are facts.

It remains that the US is not a Christian country, especially if judged by actions.

Because.....you pull an unwarranted assertion out of your ass and proclaim it to be true?

lol

Reasoning FAIL.

 

[Moonglow]

well it's just too bad for christians, they have to allow other religions to usurp their stranglehold of the US society. Tsk-tsk.