World Wide Civil Unrest - World War III?

[Ropey]

I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.

Had the environment not been hospitable? Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.

Why not?

It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.

And that's why it is interesting times. But it is pretty much always a painful environment for the act and we do need to look through the lens of the middle east.

Watch the press for Egypt. They are the first to devolve. Have they even been birthed? Egypt had a relatively open press if not free which is to say that the infrastructure of the press is strong. Right now? I wonder since there's not much coming in, and yes one must search to find that reporters are onto the next story. The Egyptian stock market is still closed.

When the eyes of the world move on a different scenario can present. It is good to keep an eye out for sometimes the birthing is a quick and violent aborting. Doubly so when no one is helping for fear of 'meddling'.

We shall see.

 

[hipeter924]

I would suppose that with almost 7 Billion Humans on the planet, the environment on Earth has been hospitable for Human Reproduction.

Had the environment not been hospitable? Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.

Why not?

It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.

Depends on what you define as being a despot.

 

[Foxfyre]

The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much. Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality. The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now. Not all that many Holocaust survivors left. I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.

All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.

Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between. And also the horrors.

We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc. We don't think about all that much. Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.

And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves? I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.

I hope my concerns are ill founded.

 

[hipeter924]

The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much. Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality. The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now. Not all that many Holocaust survivors left. I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.

All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.

Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between. And also the horrors.

We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc. We don't think about all that much. Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.

And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves? I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.

I hope my concerns are ill founded.

The government is made up of people (not supermen), instead elitist bureaucrats, corporatist lobbyists and economists. The America (and the west) you are talking of died by the end of the Korean War, and was consumed by people that wanted war not to ease suffering or create a better world, or free people, but instead to support a war for resources and control. Iraq was such a mess because it was divided among those who really did want to free and better Iraq and those that simply wanted to take its resources and exploit its population.

America is ideologically divided in government between those who view Americas role in the world is to exploit, and control to retain US supremacy, those who feel the US should leave the world to collapse in on itself, or those who want to fight bit by bit and use diplomatic tools until there is no dictatorship left standing (it was thanks to Bush after all that Pakistan became a democracy), all those factions show themselves once in a while in US actions/inactions across the world.

 

[Foxfyre]

The thing is we look at history as if it were a movie being played out in videos or books but not really emotionally involving most of the boomers and their progeny all that much. Unless one engages in serious active duty in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or in the smaller skirmishes such as Bosnia or Somalia, the horrors of war seem pretty far removed from our current reality. The World War II and Korea crowd are getting really up there in years now. Not all that many Holocaust survivors left. I read I think this morning that the last World War I veteran died this week at the age of 110.

All this is to say that most of us have no memory of the real horrors necessary to achieve democracy and most of those left who have seen combat have not witnessed democracy developing out of it as there have been no wars 'won' since World War II.

Coming from a military family, however, my head is full of the war stories--the victories, triumphs, successes, failures, and everything in between. And also the horrors.

We Americans pretty much shut out the horrors that are occurring even now in some of the Islamic nations, in some African countries brutalized by terrorist warlords, etc. We don't think about all that much. Nothing we can do about it so out of sight, out of mind.

And America has devolved into this sort of let the government protect and take care of us if we get into serious trouble and I wonder if we have lost much of the spirit and determination to take care of ourselves? I don't know how well we would cope with a World War II these days.

I hope my concerns are ill founded.

The government is made up of people (not supermen), instead elitist bureaucrats, corporatist lobbyists and economists. The America (and the west) you are talking of died by the end of the Korean War, and was consumed by people that wanted war not to ease suffering or create a better world, or free people, but instead to support a war for resources and control. Iraq was such a mess because it was divided among those who really did want to free and better Iraq and those that simply wanted to take its resources and exploit its population.

America is ideologically divided in government between those who view Americas role in the world is to exploit, and control to retain US supremacy, those who feel the US should leave the world to collapse in on itself, or those who want to fight bit by bit and use diplomatic tools until there is no dictatorship left standing (it was thanks to Bush after all that Pakistan became a democracy), all those factions show themselves once in a while in US actions/inactions across the world.

Some interesting perspective there Hipeter. I always thought Americans want their unalienable rights recognized and respected and othewise want mostly to just be left pretty much alone by other powers and their own government to live their lives as they choose.

But two factors make that difficult:

1. Most Americans realize that we are in an ever shrinking world dependent upon one another for quality of life and we want a place at the table to bargain for our share. We tend to take it personally when a place at the table is denied us.

Also. . . .

2. Most Americans have a strong sense of justice and fairness and it is difficult for them to stand with their hands in the pockets and just watch when other people are in terrible difficulties from whatever reason.

 

[Foxfyre]

And so. . . .

Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:

Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.

Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.

The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.

Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters

BREGA, Libya – Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.

The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.

Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy. There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.

American interest indeed. . . .

 

[Samson]

Had the environment not been hospitable? Are the environments hospitable for Islamic Democracy? You tell me.

Why not?

It would not be the first time Democracy succeeded Despotism.

Depends on what you define as being a despot.

How's that?

 

[Samson]

And so. . . .

Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:

Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.

Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.

The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.

Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters

BREGA, Libya – Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.

The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.

Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy. There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.

American interest indeed. . . .

Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.

That's less than 10%

How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"

It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.

 

[Foxfyre]

And so. . . .

Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:

Reuters) - Oil prices jumped to near 2-1/2 year highs on Wednesday after an airstrike near Libya's oil infrastructure kept the market braced for a prolonged disruption from the OPEC nation and worried unrest might spread to other regional producers.

Fresh airstrikes hit Brega, about 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from a Libyan oil terminal, after embattled leader Muammar Gaddafi launched a land and air offensive to retake territory in Libya's east.

The reprisal sparked calls from rebels for foreign air strikes on African mercenaries they said were helping him stay in power.

Oil surges after Libya airstrike near oil terminal | Reuters

BREGA, Libya – Opponents of Moammar Gadhafi repelled an attack by the Libyan leader's forces trying to retake a key coastal oil installation in a topsy-turvy battle Wednesday in which shells splashed in the Mediterranean and a warplane bombed a beach where rebel fighters were charging over the dunes. At least six people were killed in the fighting.

The assault on the Brega oil port was the first major regime counteroffensive against the opposition-held eastern half of Libya, where the population backed by mutinous army units rose up and drove out Gadhafi's rule over the past two weeks.

Rebels push back Libya regime attack on oil port - Yahoo! News

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy. There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.

American interest indeed. . . .

Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.

That's less than 10%

How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"

It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.

You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant? Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk? It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have. Quite another in the things that keep the economy running. Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/ You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation. I am not too young to remember.

I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune. Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.

 

[Samson]

And so. . . .

Today's news is not unrelated to my previous post:





So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

And oil prices have shot up dramatically again in the face of these new conflicts and that affects everything that Americans buy. There is renewed pressure on our own government to lift oil production restrictions in place and talk about tapping the national reserve. . . . .all which brings back vivid memories of the 1970's with sky high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines at what few pumps still had gasoline.

American interest indeed. . . .

Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.

That's less than 10%

How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"

It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.

You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant? Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk? It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have. Quite another in the things that keep the economy running. Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/ You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation. I am not too young to remember.

I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune. Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.

Take a deep breath.

A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station

 

[Foxfyre]

Gas prices are up about $0.20/gallon because of the turmoil in Libya.

That's less than 10%

How does this "bring back vivid memories of sky-high gas prices, extreme shortages, and long lines?"

It appears that the first thing Americans need to do is to stop seeing Armageddon behind every photograph of mob of camal jockys dancing around a burning tire.

You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant? Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk? It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have. Quite another in the things that keep the economy running. Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/ You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation. I am not too young to remember.

I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune. Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.

Take a deep breath.

A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station

10% of $3.00 is $ .30 cents unless they've changed the rules on math. The 'experts' are predicting $4.00 gasoline and higher if the oil fields remain at risk, however. And the gasoline I put in my car is no big deal. But gasoline shortages are a big deal when you need gasoline. And fuel costs for long haul truckers and other industries who use large quantities of fuel are a big deal.

 

[Kalam]

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.

 

[Ropey]

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.

Deflection. This is about the unrest happening today, not 21 years ago.

@ Foxfyre

I agree that these kinds of sanctions seldom hit the leadership, but they do serve to anger them and shunning does help.

There's no easy fix to such a thing, but truth be told, Obama has kept outside of the limelight so if he's doing much, it's behind the scenes.

As a Chicago politician I would expect no less.

 

[Foxfyre]

So, for humanitarian reasons, our fearless leader has slapped sanctions on Lybia which will no doubt hurt the people more than it will hurt al-Qaddafi as sanctions almost always do hurt the people more than the leaders. . . . .

I take it you felt similarly about the sanctions placed on Iraq in 1990.

At that time I hadn't thought about it a great deal. But once we got in there and saw the deaths and extreme suffering that those 12 years of sanctions had heaped on the people while Saddam just got richer and built more lavish palaces with the Oil for Food monies, I have had a totally different perspective.

 

[Kalam]

At that time I hadn't thought about it a great deal. But once we got in there and saw the deaths and extreme suffering that those 12 years of sanctions had heaped on the people while Saddam just got richer and built more lavish palaces with the Oil for Food monies, I have had a totally different perspective.

I understand. His response to being punished with sanctions was placing the entire burden on the backs of his own people; he was the worse kind of tyrant. But the effects those sanctions had on child mortality rates and the overall standard of living in the country were devastating, especially after the destruction of infrastructure during the war. Albright said that the childrens' deaths were 'worth it' but I have to disagree.

 

[Samson]

You don't see a 10% price hike in an essential commodity as significant? Especially when it is predicted to keep rising if critical Middle East oil fields are at risk? It is one thing to weather an inflationary trend in the things we don't have to have. Quite another in the things that keep the economy running. Consider how many essential products and services are dependent on that single commodity/ You are too young to remember doing business in the late 70's when we had a similar situation. I am not too young to remember.

I agree that it is foolish to look for Armageddon behind every sand dune. Even more foolish to stick one's head into the sand and pretend there isn't any problem.

Take a deep breath.

A $0.20 on top of $3.00/gallon doesn't mean you'll be pushing your car to the filling station

10% of $3.00 is $ .30 cents unless they've changed the rules on math. The 'experts' are predicting $4.00 gasoline and higher if the oil fields remain at risk, however. And the gasoline I put in my car is no big deal. But gasoline shortages are a big deal when you need gasoline. And fuel costs for long haul truckers and other industries who use large quantities of fuel are a big deal.

Meh...quibling over a 10% vs a 7% (or should I say 6.67%?) vs a 15% vs a 33% change in gasoline prices doesn't mean there will be a shortage, and its still a far cry from the 1970 OIL EMBARGO. Will it have an effect on inflation? Sure, but we've had double digit inflation before, and the earth didn't spin off its axis.

If I predict that prices may rise to $4.00, IF oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!

 

[Ropey]

If I predict that prices may rise to $4.00, IF oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!

You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.

So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.

 

[Foxfyre]

If I predict that prices may rise to $4.00, IF oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!

You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.

So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.

Hardly. I BARELY passed Introduction to Physics and don't remember a whole lot of that,

But okay. Samson is of the school that we've gone through hard times before and we'll get through these hard times in just as good shape.

Others are of the school that the die is cast and there's nothing much we can do about it.

I am of the school that notes the history that millions upon millions have suffered and died because they though "it isn't any worse than before' or 'it never happened before' or 'it couldn't happen here.'

 

[Samson]

If I predict that prices may rise to $4.00, IF oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!

You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.

So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.

I prefer the term "Guru," or "Grande Pubah"

 

[Samson]

If I predict that prices may rise to $4.00, IF oil fields "remain at risk," can I be an expert too?

I predict that if it is night, then it will look darker....Hey, I'm a Opthomological EXPERT!!!

You can be just another of the vast world of predictors predicating future premises. You could even call yourself a physicist since you are measuring scientific effects.

So, tie the two together and you are expert physicist.

Hardly. I BARELY passed Introduction to Physics and don't remember a whole lot of that,

But okay. Samson is of the school that we've gone through hard times before and we'll get through these hard times in just as good shape.

Others are of the school that the die is cast and there's nothing much we can do about it.

I am of the school that notes the history that millions upon millions have suffered and died because they though "it isn't any worse than before' or 'it never happened before' or 'it couldn't happen here.'

Here, you may need a new avatar: