wind power, winning all the way

[whitehall]

You gotta be mentally unbalanced to consider 4.6% of America's energy grid (up from 3%) to be a victory. The world is upside down to the radical environmentalists.

 

[Abraham3]

When you start at zero, it's something. What the fuck is wrong with you? How long do you think it took for America to build the first 4.6% of it's current power capacity? And you can be fucking sure no one was being as stupid as you are about it.

 

[whitehall]

When you start at zero, it's something. What the fuck is wrong with you? How long do you think it took for America to build the first 4.6% of it's current power capacity? And you can be fucking sure no one was being as stupid as you are about it.

WTF is wrong with the radical (low information) environmentalists when they compare the greatest fossil fuel industrial expansion of the greatest Country in the world to dismal stupid eagle killing humming atrocities that blight the landscape.

 

[flacaltenn]

Read and learn!

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

I'd like to point out something. Flow through open turbine blades being driven by the ambient flow produces NO SUCTION. Flow through the blade's arc area is actually slower than the flow away from the blades Animals will not be sucked in to the blades. It is possible for one of them to be struck by the blades, but unlikely. Additionally, compared to the speed at which dolphins and seals swim and maneuver, the blades are not moving that fast. You could get instances, as with birds, where the animals own speed makes a collision worse: essentially having a head on collision between a high speed animal and the moving blade. Given their maneuverability, their speed, their sense and their intellect, the odds of a seal or dolphin being struck and injured by a turbine blade are slim to none.

Well, in brief,, you are winging most of that... There are oodles of studies saying marine mammals and most other sea life face real dangers from MOST of these designs. And I say most, because there are at least half dozen different designs for tidal turbines.. The worst designs being those that actually produce the most reliable power.. And thats where Huge areas of bays are actually dmmed off and there is no way in or out WITHOUT going thru the blades.. The issues are far more complex than you appear to understand.. Another case of "green" engineering getting a pass and abiding by different enviro standards.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

You either didn't read the article or didn't comprehend it.

You either didn't read my response or you can't comprehend it. I was talking about your post. You said "A friend of mine is a marine biologist and was part of a study for a tidal powered energy generator. The local environmentalists were seriously concerned that the seals would be sucked in and "chopped to bits" especially during high tide when the current was flowing the strongest and the most energy was being generated. They posters "spotters" on the equipment and along the shoreline to give warnings when they saw a seal so that the equipment could be immediately shut down and no seals would be harmed.

This study lasted for 9 months without a single warning or shutdown and yet not a single seal was ever harmed. The reason was simple. The seals didn't waste their energy swimming at high tide. Instead they were all taking naps. They knew that it took more energy to swim at high tide than slack tide so they just stayed out of the water."

I'd like to know how they can see into the water so clearly, how they can stop giant blades instantly and why those seals don't swin at high tide when the ones here do. Not against the current but they do, I've been in a kayak and see them in action. So the story makes no sense to me.

OK, so you didn't comprehend the article. Let me see if I can explain. The tidal generator is in a narrow straight where the current would automatically be stronger because you have the pressure of the rising ocean pushing the tide waters through the narrows into the loch behind. (And the reverse when the tide is going out.) This is nothing like a rising tide across an open beach. The seals in the area know that the current through the straight is strong so they avoid it at those times. Further the spotters were looking for seals on the surface where they have to come up for air. If they could see a seal on the surface upstream from they were supposed to use their radios to notify the generator operators to stop the blades.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Seals are much smarter than birds. The Altamont Pass windfarm (about 40 miles from San Francisco) has been in operation since the 1970's and in that period the raptor population has been chopped (quite literally) in half.

All endangered birds in that area are being driven to extinction by the windfarm. A 50% reduction in the raptor population was so alarming even the environmentalists are taking notice.

Hmmm, no other factors at play? Like urban growth, pesticides, loss of nesting sites and food sources? Just the wind farm is to blame?

Yep. The windfarm has been the only development in the whole area. There has been extensive study of its impact on the raptor population. The problem with the windfarm, and MOST windfarms, is it was built in a flyway and the hills are and have always been a huge source of bunny rabbits and other critters that the raptors feed on.

So yes in the case of this windfarm we can categorically say IT IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF RAPTOR LETHALITY IN THAT AREA.

What about the farmers using pesticides? The harm to the raptor population was directly attributed to the use of pesticides nationwide.

Endocrine Disrupters and Bald Eagles: A Response

Bald Eagle Fact Sheet

 

[Derideo_Te]

That's what I thought, you're making it up. It makes no sense.

Do you understand what a vortex is?

Is there a way they could fix the shape of the screens to eschew the artificial undertow created by these metal horrors? I think my impression of the area all around one of these was that nothing was growing in the waters around the unit for several cubic acres. My heart goes out to the people who once fished the areas for regional favorites they can no longer find, not to mention the ending of a specie of fish so beneficial in its habitat niche. And it seems a certain species of seal no longer exists by an area used for experimentation that turned into a power source, and it could be extinct in short order if the practice is continued.

Bless the beasts and the children...

[ame=http://youtu.be/AhR36gV6vW4]carpenter - Bless the Beasts and the Children - YouTube[/ame]

They commissioned the study to ensure that there would be no threat to the existing ecosystem. The loch contains one of the greatest diversities of seaweed in the world. This was known beforehand and it will continue to be monitored for decades to come.

The problem with screens on the blades is that they will create a vortex effect as opposed to just allowing the blades to rotate. When you stop and think about it these kinds of blades already exist on all kinds of ships and submarines that travel worldwide. There is not a trail of sushi behind them because aquatic life has the means to detect and avoid the blades.

As far as the fishing goes that has nothing to do with the generator. The factory fishing industry was never sustainable because it never understood the fish populations and allowed them to regenerate before taking another "harvest". The decimation of fish species won't stop until there are no more fish because the demand continues to outpace the ability to reproduce.

 

[Iceweasel]

I'd like to point out something. Flow through open turbine blades being driven by the ambient flow produces NO SUCTION. Flow through the blade's arc area is actually slower than the flow away from the blades Animals will not be sucked in to the blades. It is possible for one of them to be struck by the blades, but unlikely. Additionally, compared to the speed at which dolphins and seals swim and maneuver, the blades are not moving that fast. You could get instances, as with birds, where the animals own speed makes a collision worse: essentially having a head on collision between a high speed animal and the moving blade. Given their maneuverability, their speed, their sense and their intellect, the odds of a seal or dolphin being struck and injured by a turbine blade are slim to none.

That could be and would make more sense than the way the story was presented. Soptters for seals (that move fast in the water) to stop the giant blades apparently on a dime. I can see a small station powering some utility but to power a city it's going to take a lot of those and they are only going to operate at peak performance briefly twice a day. I seriously doubt it's a candidate for an alternative energy source.

 

[Iceweasel]

OK, so you didn't comprehend the article. Let me see if I can explain. The tidal generator is in a narrow straight where the current would automatically be stronger because you have the pressure of the rising ocean pushing the tide waters through the narrows into the loch behind. (And the reverse when the tide is going out.) This is nothing like a rising tide across an open beach. The seals in the area know that the current through the straight is strong so they avoid it at those times. Further the spotters were looking for seals on the surface where they have to come up for air. If they could see a seal on the surface upstream from they were supposed to use their radios to notify the generator operators to stop the blades.

I am familiar with the phenomonem. I have kayaked around Deception Pass, not in it mind you. It's known to burn up engines if the boat operator tries to go in or out against the tide. Out here, seals are a favorite food source for Orcas and they too are smart. If they know they can block them off at the pass they will have a field day. Just because one window of time tested good that doesn't mean it will always be the same scenario every year, and it wasn't even a year's test. Sea life is very dynamic, I don't know how there can ever be a guarentee of no impact on species, even if you had spotters and the ability to stop the turbines on demand. I just sounds like wishful thinking. I can see the interest in harnassing the energy since it's consistent twice a day for a brief period but planting a turbine farm in major waterways ain't gonna happen.

 

[Derideo_Te]

OK, so you didn't comprehend the article. Let me see if I can explain. The tidal generator is in a narrow straight where the current would automatically be stronger because you have the pressure of the rising ocean pushing the tide waters through the narrows into the loch behind. (And the reverse when the tide is going out.) This is nothing like a rising tide across an open beach. The seals in the area know that the current through the straight is strong so they avoid it at those times. Further the spotters were looking for seals on the surface where they have to come up for air. If they could see a seal on the surface upstream from they were supposed to use their radios to notify the generator operators to stop the blades.

I am familiar with the phenomonem. I have kayaked around Deception Pass, not in it mind you. It's known to burn up engines if the boat operator tries to go in or out against the tide. Out here, seals are a favorite food source for Orcas and they too are smart. If they know they can block them off at the pass they will have a field day. Just because one window of time tested good that doesn't mean it will always be the same scenario every year, and it wasn't even a year's test. Sea life is very dynamic, I don't know how there can ever be a guarentee of no impact on species, even if you had spotters and the ability to stop the turbines on demand. I just sounds like wishful thinking. I can see the interest in harnassing the energy since it's consistent twice a day for a brief period but planting a turbine farm in major waterways ain't gonna happen.

Why don't you educate yourself about what is happening in your own backyard?

Tidal-power license issued for Snohomish County PUD | Local News | The Seattle Times

Soon The Ocean Will Be Generating Power Near Seattle | ThinkProgress

Happening elsewhere too!

NYC?s East River May Get Tidal Power Plant | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

In fact it is happening worldwide so your ignorance is no impediment to progress.

 

[Iceweasel]

Why don't you educate yourself about what is happening in your own backyard?

Tidal-power license issued for Snohomish County PUD | Local News | The Seattle Times

Soon The Ocean Will Be Generating Power Near Seattle | ThinkProgress

Happening elsewhere too!

NYC?s East River May Get Tidal Power Plant | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

In fact it is happening worldwide so your ignorance is no impediment to progress.

"Commercial generation of tidal energy hasn’t been studied much; the license lets the PUD gather information to see if it might be feasible in this region, he said."

"The Snohomish pilot calls for two turbines placed at a depth of 200 feet. The turbines, manufactured by OpenHydro in Dublin, Ireland, each measures 20 feet in diameter and weighs 414 tons. They are secured in place by gravity and need no pilings, said utility district spokesman Neil Neroutsos. Once installed, they’ll be in place for three to five years, according to a PUD news release.

The inlet is a very large body of water — the footprint of the pilot plant will be small by comparison, which should minimize any environmental impacts, Neroutsos said.

The tidal project is funded by $13 million in grants from the U.S. Department of Energy, Bonneville Power Administration and federal appropriations. The University of Washington, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Sound & Sea Technology and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory are also partners in the project."

Ah, the funding. Gotta keep that funding coming in. What does "should minimize any environmental impact" mean? Clearly they are expecting some and hoping for the best. I suspect that they will butt heads at some point with the marine environmentalists but pipe dreams are hard to stop.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Why don't you educate yourself about what is happening in your own backyard?

Tidal-power license issued for Snohomish County PUD | Local News | The Seattle Times

Soon The Ocean Will Be Generating Power Near Seattle | ThinkProgress

Happening elsewhere too!

NYC?s East River May Get Tidal Power Plant | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

In fact it is happening worldwide so your ignorance is no impediment to progress.

"Commercial generation of tidal energy hasn’t been studied much; the license lets the PUD gather information to see if it might be feasible in this region, he said."

"The Snohomish pilot calls for two turbines placed at a depth of 200 feet. The turbines, manufactured by OpenHydro in Dublin, Ireland, each measures 20 feet in diameter and weighs 414 tons. They are secured in place by gravity and need no pilings, said utility district spokesman Neil Neroutsos. Once installed, they’ll be in place for three to five years, according to a PUD news release.

The inlet is a very large body of water — the footprint of the pilot plant will be small by comparison, which should minimize any environmental impacts, Neroutsos said.

The tidal project is funded by $13 million in grants from the U.S. Department of Energy, Bonneville Power Administration and federal appropriations. The University of Washington, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Sound & Sea Technology and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory are also partners in the project."

Ah, the funding. Gotta keep that funding coming in. What does "should minimize any environmental impact" mean? Clearly they are expecting some and hoping for the best. I suspect that they will butt heads at some point with the marine environmentalists but pipe dreams are hard to stop.

The endless growing demand for energy is even harder to stop!

 

[flacaltenn]

You either didn't read the article or didn't comprehend it.

You either didn't read my response or you can't comprehend it. I was talking about your post. You said "A friend of mine is a marine biologist and was part of a study for a tidal powered energy generator. The local environmentalists were seriously concerned that the seals would be sucked in and "chopped to bits" especially during high tide when the current was flowing the strongest and the most energy was being generated. They posters "spotters" on the equipment and along the shoreline to give warnings when they saw a seal so that the equipment could be immediately shut down and no seals would be harmed.

This study lasted for 9 months without a single warning or shutdown and yet not a single seal was ever harmed. The reason was simple. The seals didn't waste their energy swimming at high tide. Instead they were all taking naps. They knew that it took more energy to swim at high tide than slack tide so they just stayed out of the water."

I'd like to know how they can see into the water so clearly, how they can stop giant blades instantly and why those seals don't swin at high tide when the ones here do. Not against the current but they do, I've been in a kayak and see them in action. So the story makes no sense to me.

OK, so you didn't comprehend the article. Let me see if I can explain. The tidal generator is i

n a narrow straight where the current would automatically be stronger because you have the pressure of the rising ocean pushing the tide waters through the narrows into the loch behind. (And the reverse when the tide is going out.) This is nothing like a rising tide across an open beach. The seals in the area know that the current through the straight is strong so they avoid it at those times. Further the spotters were looking for seals on the surface where they have to come up for air. If they could see a seal on the surface upstream from they were supposed to use their radios to notify the generator operators to stop the blades.

Theres a parallel for some wind farms with especially bad bird kills. They are experimenting with actual radar systems that spotters use to PARTIALLY shut down the field. PERHAPS could be totally automated if it works, but has implications if REQUIRED in the future..

Better idea is to do what we do with any other project.. Disallow the location if it has an adverse effect on territorial species..

 

[JakeStarkey]

Poor fuckers in Canada better hope they dont get strong winds for several days in the middle of a polar vortex!!! That'd be awesome!!!

The facts say otherwise, and the economy in parts of the upper Texas panhandle has boomed because of wind power.

 

[Abraham3]

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

I'd like to point out something. Flow through open turbine blades being driven by the ambient flow produces NO SUCTION. Flow through the blade's arc area is actually slower than the flow away from the blades Animals will not be sucked in to the blades. It is possible for one of them to be struck by the blades, but unlikely. Additionally, compared to the speed at which dolphins and seals swim and maneuver, the blades are not moving that fast. You could get instances, as with birds, where the animals own speed makes a collision worse: essentially having a head on collision between a high speed animal and the moving blade. Given their maneuverability, their speed, their sense and their intellect, the odds of a seal or dolphin being struck and injured by a turbine blade are slim to none.

Well, in brief,, you are winging most of that... There are oodles of studies saying marine mammals and most other sea life face real dangers from MOST of these designs. And I say most, because there are at least half dozen different designs for tidal turbines.. The worst designs being those that actually produce the most reliable power.. And thats where Huge areas of bays are actually dmmed off and there is no way in or out WITHOUT going thru the blades.. The issues are far more complex than you appear to understand.. Another case of "green" engineering getting a pass and abiding by different enviro standards.

Let's see a few of those "oodles of studies".

People knew to put bypasses for biologics a hundred years ago. You think they've forgotten? And do you actually think anyone would completely close off an entire harbor? Did you give any thought to vessel traffic?

ps: I was "winging it". That's because I'm a god damn ocean engineer and I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You do not.

 

[Iceweasel]

Let's see a few of those "oodles of studies".

People knew to put bypasses for biologics a hundred years ago. You think they've forgotten? And do you actually think anyone would completely close off an entire harbor? Did you give any thought to vessel traffic?

ps: I was "winging it". That's because I'm a god damn ocean engineer and I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You do not.

Sounds like you're mighty proud of it too. The problem with these things is that you are going to need a bunch of them, you can't do a realistic test study with one or two. That's not to say no device will ever work but underwater turbines aren't the answer.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Let's see a few of those "oodles of studies".

People knew to put bypasses for biologics a hundred years ago. You think they've forgotten? And do you actually think anyone would completely close off an entire harbor? Did you give any thought to vessel traffic?

ps: I was "winging it". That's because I'm a god damn ocean engineer and I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You do not.

Sounds like you're mighty proud of it too. The problem with these things is that you are going to need a bunch of them, you can't do a realistic test study with one or two. That's not to say no device will ever work but underwater turbines aren't the answer.

So far your only claim to knowing anything at all about tidal turbines stems from floating about on a kayak. You haven't produced a single credible link or study that supports your nay saying. Tidal power dates back to Roman times and those were primarily for driving water wheels for milling. The first modern electrical power from tides was installed by the French in 1965 and it is still functioning today. For the record the use of windmills began around the 500-900 AD and were also used for milling and pumping water. So after many hundreds of years of use it is a fallacy to claim that wind and tide power won't work. The potential energy is there and we have the technology to make them work now more efficiently and effectively than ever before. Hence the massive growth in wind farms and the studies for tidal power generation. Fossil fuel costs will continue to rise while the tides, wind and solar are there for the taking.

 

[flacaltenn]

I'd like to point out something. Flow through open turbine blades being driven by the ambient flow produces NO SUCTION. Flow through the blade's arc area is actually slower than the flow away from the blades Animals will not be sucked in to the blades. It is possible for one of them to be struck by the blades, but unlikely. Additionally, compared to the speed at which dolphins and seals swim and maneuver, the blades are not moving that fast. You could get instances, as with birds, where the animals own speed makes a collision worse: essentially having a head on collision between a high speed animal and the moving blade. Given their maneuverability, their speed, their sense and their intellect, the odds of a seal or dolphin being struck and injured by a turbine blade are slim to none.

Well, in brief,, you are winging most of that... There are oodles of studies saying marine mammals and most other sea life face real dangers from MOST of these designs. And I say most, because there are at least half dozen different designs for tidal turbines.. The worst designs being those that actually produce the most reliable power.. And thats where Huge areas of bays are actually dmmed off and there is no way in or out WITHOUT going thru the blades.. The issues are far more complex than you appear to understand.. Another case of "green" engineering getting a pass and abiding by different enviro standards.

Let's see a few of those "oodles of studies".

People knew to put bypasses for biologics a hundred years ago. You think they've forgotten? And do you actually think anyone would completely close off an entire harbor? Did you give any thought to vessel traffic?

ps: I was "winging it". That's because I'm a god damn ocean engineer and I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You do not.

No.. I don't "think" anyone would completely close off an entire harbor ( I said bay or estuary, not harbor), ----- I KNOW SO.. Otherwise I wouldn't make an assertion like that.. You should know that by now, that I DO NOT wing it..

Subsea World News - UK: Tidal Lagoon Power Limited Names New Development Director

If your 1st concern is vessel traffic, you flunk "green" mate..
VERY BAD eco concept.. No life gets in or out except thru the blades.. And this is not the ONLY proposal of it's kind.. Because instead of peaky tidal power, you now can store and stretch generation thru the inter-tidal periods.

No limits to "green engineering" when it comes to their ideas..
As for the "oodles of studies" -- I read 2 just last night.. Google for oodles doodles.. Try
"tidal turbines" and marine mammals.. You'll see oodles. So your assertion of none is fallacious.. HOWEVER, all that depends on the size and TYPE of underwater turbine as I said above.

 

[Iceweasel]

So far your only claim to knowing anything at all about tidal turbines stems from floating about on a kayak. You haven't produced a single credible link or study that supports your nay saying.

All you can do is make baseless accusations and try to fluff yourself up. I said I was skeptical since it will take a slew of them. The link is right here, genius. Read it again since you couldn't understand it.

Tidal power dates back to Roman times and those were primarily for driving water wheels for milling. The first modern electrical power from tides was installed by the French in 1965 and it is still functioning today. For the record the use of windmills began around the 500-900 AD and were also used for milling and pumping water. So after many hundreds of years of use it is a fallacy to claim that wind and tide power won't work. The potential energy is there and we have the technology to make them work now more efficiently and effectively than ever before. Hence the massive growth in wind farms and the studies for tidal power generation. Fossil fuel costs will continue to rise while the tides, wind and solar are there for the taking.

And I didn't say it wouldn't someday be feasible, read it again. Supplying a city with electricity isn't the same as operating a millstone. You're making the assertion, it's up to you to prove. Where are your studies that say underwater turbines have been proven to be effective in supplying any meaningful amount of power and that it will have no impact on sea life? One or two turbines don't make the case.

Furthermore, like I said earlier the tides don't operate at their peak but for a short time. What link do I need? A link to how many times a day the tide changes? I don't see that particular technology going anywhere except temporarily funding a wet dream.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So far your only claim to knowing anything at all about tidal turbines stems from floating about on a kayak. You haven't produced a single credible link or study that supports your nay saying.

All you can do is make baseless accusations and try to fluff yourself up. I said I was skeptical since it will take a slew of them. The link is right here, genius. Read it again since you couldn't understand it.

Tidal power dates back to Roman times and those were primarily for driving water wheels for milling. The first modern electrical power from tides was installed by the French in 1965 and it is still functioning today. For the record the use of windmills began around the 500-900 AD and were also used for milling and pumping water. So after many hundreds of years of use it is a fallacy to claim that wind and tide power won't work. The potential energy is there and we have the technology to make them work now more efficiently and effectively than ever before. Hence the massive growth in wind farms and the studies for tidal power generation. Fossil fuel costs will continue to rise while the tides, wind and solar are there for the taking.

And I didn't say it wouldn't someday be feasible, read it again. Supplying a city with electricity isn't the same as operating a millstone. You're making the assertion, it's up to you to prove. Where are your studies that say underwater turbines have been proven to be effective in supplying any meaningful amount of power and that it will have no impact on sea life? One or two turbines don't make the case.

Furthermore, like I said earlier the tides don't operate at their peak but for a short time. What link do I need? A link to how many times a day the tide changes? I don't see that particular technology going anywhere except temporarily funding a wet dream.

You didn't supply any link, "genius"!

But here is a link to the French tidal power system and yes, it includes the impact on the environment.

Rance Tidal Power Station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your grasp of tidal power generation is tenuous at best. They don't only operate at "peak" periods! The turbines proposed for Puget Sound would only be non operational for the short predictable periods of slack tides. For the rest of the day the tide is either coming in or going out.