Will the work of Dr. Eran Elhaik change anything?

[abi]

A subtitle might be: Can people change their long-held beliefs when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that what they believed is incorrect?

In 1976, a rather brilliant, communist Jew named Arthur Koestler wrote, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage.

The zionists went crazy of course, as it destroyed their narrative, but it's still out there and worth a read, especially considering what we know now.

There are three scientific papers, authored by a Jewish scientist, Dr. Eran Elhaik, which basically conclude that what Koestler wrote in 1976 was in fact true.

Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

In Search of the jüdische Typus: A Proposed Benchmark to Test the Genetic Basis of Jewishness Challenges Notions of “Jewish Biomarkers”

Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

For those not interested in scientific articles, this thread probably isn't for you. But, you still might be interested in this video where he explains DNA GPS tracking in an easy to understand way.



It is what he uses to explain the origin of Yiddish:



Let's try to keep this discussion on an academic level. Thanks.

 

[Shusha]

As pointed out in the Balfour Declaration thread:

The Balfour Declaration was nothing more than international support for the existing rights of an indigenous peoples to a national homeland (State) within their historical territory.

There is NO way for Arab Palestinians to disagree with that concept while demanding international support for THEIR existing rights as a long-tenured people to a national homeland (State) within their historical territory.

Therefore, in order to fulfill the goal of the Arabs -- which is to DENY the rights of the Jewish people to ANY self-determination, sovereignty or independence on their historical, ancestral and religious homeland -- the Arab people and their useful idiots set about disclaiming any connection of the modern Jewish people with the Jewish people who have lived continuously on that territory for nearly four thousand years.

In order to reach this goal they bend reality to such a degree that it would be laughable without the deep-seated anti-semitism which provides the foundation for it.

Some thoughts:

1. The use of physical traits (including DNA) to determine whether or not a people has rights is abhorrent and disgusting.

2. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that ALL Jewish peoples are inter-related to a large degree.

3. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that ALL the Jewish peoples are very closely related to the Arab Palestinians who are ASSUMED to be representatives of the native population and are used as a proxy to approximate the DNA of ancient Hebrew tribes who lived there.

4. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that the Arab Palestinians are also heavily related to Arab groups from local regions.

5. The UN, in its Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, does not use DNA as any defining factor in determining either the fact of an indigenous culture, its connection to territory or the inclusion or exclusion of its individual members. The determining factors, in IHL, are the unique, defining cultural traits of the indigenous group, self-identification and group acceptance.

6. Ashkenazi (the only sub-group of Jews to which any of this applies) Jews are only a minor portion of citizens of Israel.

7. Dr, Elhaik's paper does not say what you claim it says. In fact, his conclusion reads:

We compared two genetic models for European Jewish ancestry depicting a mixed Khazarian–European–Middle Eastern and sole Middle Eastern origins. Contemporary populations were used as surrogates to the ancient Khazars and Judeans, and their relatedness to European Jews was compared over a comprehensive set of genetic analyses. Our findings support the Khazarian hypothesis depicting a large Near Eastern–Caucasus ancestry along with Southern European, Middle Eastern, and Eastern European ancestries, in agreement with recent studies and oral and written traditions. We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaized Khazars, Greco–Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews, and Judeans and that their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan. (emphasis mine)

8. If you wish to apply DNA results to the Jewish people, you must apply it to ALL peoples, else it is intentional discrimination.

9. The Jewish people, clearly, and without question, originated in the territory with evidence of their thousand-year history being found in abundance.



The fact that so many people fall for this utter bullshit is a sad commentary on the continuation of deep antisemitism and the lack of critical thinking in our world.

 

[abi]

1. The use of physical traits (including DNA) to determine whether or not a people has rights is abhorrent and disgusting.

2. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that ALL Jewish peoples are inter-related to a large degree.

Do you see what happened there?

3. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that ALL the Jewish peoples are very closely related to the Arab Palestinians who are ASSUMED to be representatives of the native population and are used as a proxy to approximate the DNA of ancient Hebrew tribes who lived there.

And here?

4. There is copious and indisputable DNA evidence that the Arab Palestinians are also heavily related to Arab groups from local regions.

And here too?

7. Dr, Elhaik's paper does not say what you claim it says. In fact, his conclusion reads:

I never claimed it said anything and there were three papers. I seriously doubt you read them.

The fact that so many people fall for this utter bullshit is a sad commentary on the continuation of deep antisemitism and the lack of critical thinking in our world.

Neither Koestler nor Elhaik are anti-Semites, please, it's quite the opposite.

And as to the rest of your seemingly scripted response, and to sum this up, you are in some interesting company:



Science, however, disagrees with both you and Dr. Duke.

 

[Shusha]

Do you see what happened there?

I do. You are foolishly trying to claim that I am going against my own point #1. But I am not doing any such thing since I am NOT using DNA to deny the rights of peoples. Indigenous rights arise from the points brought up in #5 and not DNA. And since I fully support the rights of BOTH peoples, and you are in support of only ONE peoples, you have no right to high horse me on that point.

I never claimed it said anything and there were three papers. I seriously doubt you read them.

Well, since I've quoted one, I would suggest your doubt is unfounded.

Neither Koestler nor Elhaik are anti-Semites, please, it's quite the opposite.

It wasn't either of them I was labeling as anti-semitic.

Science, however, disagrees with both you ....

"Science" does no such thing. And neither does Dr. Elhaik's paper, which you introduced as a point of disucssion. Dr. Elhaik AGREES that Ashkenazi Jews have an Israel/Canaanite/Judean/Levantine/Middle Eastern origin. Its in his conclusion which I quoted for you.

 

[Shusha]

And, abi , your introduction of David Duke, a notorious anti-semite, in a bizarre attempt to discredit ME is just plain silly.

 

[Shusha]

Oh, and I forgot one.

10. No one is arguing that the Jewish people experienced a Diaspora and therefore will have expected genetic relationships with their host homes. We all agree that happened. The question of rights arising from that fact is whether or not a forced ethnic cleansing of an indigenous peoples removes the rights of those indigenous peoples.

 

[abi]

Well, since I've quoted one, I would suggest your doubt is unfounded.

You scrolled to the end and found a paragraph that you thought made a point for you. It doesn't work that way. Before I go on, let me prove my point. Tell us what this says:

And this:

Admit you didn't read or understand what you read and let's read together what you skipped pass to get there. I will leave the higher math stuff out for now and focus on what is clear. A few excerpts from the "results" section:

Remarkably, the mean coordinates of Eastern European Jews are 560 km from Khazaria’s southern border (42.77° N, 42.56° E) near Samandar—the capital city of Khazaria from 720 to 750 CE (Polak 1951)....

To the best of our knowledge, these are the largest IBD regions ever reported between European Jews and non-Jewish populations. The decrease in total IBD between European Jews and other populations combined with the increase in distance from the Caucasus support the Khazarian hypothesis....

When compared with non-Jewish populations, all Jewish communities were significantly (P < 0.01, bootstrap t test) distant from Middle Eastern populations and, with the exception of Central European Jews, significantly closer to Caucasus populations (table 1, right panel). Similar findings were reported by Behar et al. (2010) although they were dismissed as “a bias inherent in our calculations.” However, we found no such bias. The close genetic distance between Central European Jews and Southern European populations can be attributed to a late admixture. The results are consistent with our previous findings in support of the Khazarian hypothesis. As the only commonality among all Jewish communities is their dissimilarity from Middle Eastern populations (table 1, right panel), grouping different Jewish communities without correcting for their country of origin, as is commonly done, would increase their genetic heterogeneity....

Our results shed light on sex-specific processes that, although not evident from the autosomal data, are analogous to those obtained from the biparental analyses. Both mtDNA and Y-chromosomal analyses yield high similarities between European Jews and Caucasus populations rooted in the Caucasus (fig. 7) in support of the Khazarian hypothesis....

Moreover, we found little genetic similarity between European Jews and populations eastward to the Caspian Sea and southward to the Black Sea, delineating the geographical boundaries of Khazaria (table 1 and fig. 1)....

And few excerpts from the "discussion" section:

Eastern and Central European Jews comprise the largest group of contemporary Jews, accounting for approximately 90% of over 13 million worldwide Jews. Eastern European Jews made up over 90% of European Jews before World War II. Despite their controversial ancestry, European Jews are an attractive group for genetic and medical studies due to their presumed genetic history (Ostrer 2001). Correcting for population structure and using suitable controls are critical in medical studies, thus it is vital to determine whether European Jews are of Semitic, Caucasus, or other ancestry.

Though Judaism was born encased in theological–historical myth, no Jewish historiography was produced from the time of Josephus Flavius (1st century CE) to the 19th century (Sand 2009). Early historians bridged the historical gap simply by linking modern Jews directly to the ancient Judeans (fig. 2), a paradigm that was later embedded in medical science and crystallized as a narrative. Many have challenged this narrative (Koestler 1976; Straten 2007), mainly by showing that a sole Judean ancestry cannot account for the vast population of Eastern European Jews in the beginning of the 20th century without the major contribution of Judaized Khazars and by demonstrating that it is in conflict with anthropological, historical, and genetic evidence (Patai and Patai 1975; Baron 1993; Sand 2009)....

Our findings thus reject the Rhineland hypothesis and uphold the thesis that Eastern European Jews are Judeo–Khazars in origin....

Historical and archeological findings shed light on the demographic events following the Khazars’ conversion. During the half millennium of their existence (740–1250 CE), the Judeo–Khazars sent offshoots into the Slavic lands, such as Romania and Hungary (Baron 1993), planting the seeds of a great Jewish community to later rise in the Khazarian diaspora....

The genetic similarity between European Jews and Druze therefore supports the Khazarian hypothesis and should not be confused with a Semitic origin, which can be easily distinguished from the non-Semitic origin (fig. 5)....
(emphasis mine)

And, abi , your introduction of David Duke, a notorious anti-semite, in a bizarre attempt to discredit ME is just plain silly.

It sincerely was not an attempt to discredit you. I was simply pointing out that he says exactly what you do. I am guessing from your response that you had no idea that you and Dr. Duke were so close ideologically.

No one is arguing that the Jewish people experienced a Diaspora and therefore will have expected genetic relationships with their host homes. We all agree that happened.

No "we" don't. It is not settled history at all.

 

[Indeependent]

Well, since I've quoted one, I would suggest your doubt is unfounded.

You scrolled to the end and found a paragraph that you thought made a point for you. It doesn't work that way. Before I go on, let me prove my point. Tell us what this says:

And this:

Admit you didn't read or understand what you read and let's read together what you skipped pass to get there. I will leave the higher math stuff out for now and focus on what is clear. A few excerpts from the "results" section:

Remarkably, the mean coordinates of Eastern European Jews are 560 km from Khazaria’s southern border (42.77° N, 42.56° E) near Samandar—the capital city of Khazaria from 720 to 750 CE (Polak 1951)....

To the best of our knowledge, these are the largest IBD regions ever reported between European Jews and non-Jewish populations. The decrease in total IBD between European Jews and other populations combined with the increase in distance from the Caucasus support the Khazarian hypothesis....

When compared with non-Jewish populations, all Jewish communities were significantly (P < 0.01, bootstrap t test) distant from Middle Eastern populations and, with the exception of Central European Jews, significantly closer to Caucasus populations (table 1, right panel). Similar findings were reported by Behar et al. (2010) although they were dismissed as “a bias inherent in our calculations.” However, we found no such bias. The close genetic distance between Central European Jews and Southern European populations can be attributed to a late admixture. The results are consistent with our previous findings in support of the Khazarian hypothesis. As the only commonality among all Jewish communities is their dissimilarity from Middle Eastern populations (table 1, right panel), grouping different Jewish communities without correcting for their country of origin, as is commonly done, would increase their genetic heterogeneity....

Our results shed light on sex-specific processes that, although not evident from the autosomal data, are analogous to those obtained from the biparental analyses. Both mtDNA and Y-chromosomal analyses yield high similarities between European Jews and Caucasus populations rooted in the Caucasus (fig. 7) in support of the Khazarian hypothesis....

Moreover, we found little genetic similarity between European Jews and populations eastward to the Caspian Sea and southward to the Black Sea, delineating the geographical boundaries of Khazaria (table 1 and fig. 1)....

And few excerpts from the "discussion" section:

Eastern and Central European Jews comprise the largest group of contemporary Jews, accounting for approximately 90% of over 13 million worldwide Jews. Eastern European Jews made up over 90% of European Jews before World War II. Despite their controversial ancestry, European Jews are an attractive group for genetic and medical studies due to their presumed genetic history (Ostrer 2001). Correcting for population structure and using suitable controls are critical in medical studies, thus it is vital to determine whether European Jews are of Semitic, Caucasus, or other ancestry.

Though Judaism was born encased in theological–historical myth, no Jewish historiography was produced from the time of Josephus Flavius (1st century CE) to the 19th century (Sand 2009). Early historians bridged the historical gap simply by linking modern Jews directly to the ancient Judeans (fig. 2), a paradigm that was later embedded in medical science and crystallized as a narrative. Many have challenged this narrative (Koestler 1976; Straten 2007), mainly by showing that a sole Judean ancestry cannot account for the vast population of Eastern European Jews in the beginning of the 20th century without the major contribution of Judaized Khazars and by demonstrating that it is in conflict with anthropological, historical, and genetic evidence (Patai and Patai 1975; Baron 1993; Sand 2009)....

Our findings thus reject the Rhineland hypothesis and uphold the thesis that Eastern European Jews are Judeo–Khazars in origin....

Historical and archeological findings shed light on the demographic events following the Khazars’ conversion. During the half millennium of their existence (740–1250 CE), the Judeo–Khazars sent offshoots into the Slavic lands, such as Romania and Hungary (Baron 1993), planting the seeds of a great Jewish community to later rise in the Khazarian diaspora....

The genetic similarity between European Jews and Druze therefore supports the Khazarian hypothesis and should not be confused with a Semitic origin, which can be easily distinguished from the non-Semitic origin (fig. 5)....
(emphasis mine)

And, abi , your introduction of David Duke, a notorious anti-semite, in a bizarre attempt to discredit ME is just plain silly.

It sincerely was not an attempt to discredit you. I was simply pointing out that he says exactly what you do. I am guessing from your response that you had no idea that you and Dr. Duke were so close ideologically.

No one is arguing that the Jewish people experienced a Diaspora and therefore will have expected genetic relationships with their host homes. We all agree that happened.

No "we" don't. It is not settled history at all.

That's because the atheist doesn't recognize the millions of pages of history left by the Rabbis.

 

[Shusha]

You scrolled to the end and found a paragraph that you thought made a point for you. It doesn't work that way.

Haha. Are you kidding me? I posted the CONCLUSION of the paper you submitted in the OP. The conclusion was written by the creator of the paper. Are you seriously trying to argue that the researcher in the paper you have submitted for discussion is WRONG about his conclusion?

It sincerely was not an attempt to discredit you. ... I am guessing from your response that you had no idea that you and Dr. Duke were so close ideologically.

Haha. Again. Are you kidding me? You are not trying to discredit me but you are pointing out I am ideologically close to a rabid and toxic antisemite. You are transparent as glass.

No "we" don't. It is not settled history at all.

What?! You are going to argue that the Jewish people -- the ENTIRE Jewish people -- originated ELSEWHERE and have no origins in Israel, Judea and Samaria? That there was NO Jewish Diaspora? FFS.

 

[teddyearp]

That seems to be the case the anti-israel crowd continues to work toward. Complete denial that Jews, and the history of Israel ever existed, doesn't it?

 

[Shusha]

That seems to be the case the anti-israel crowd continues to work toward. Complete denial that Jews, and the history of Israel ever existed, doesn't it?

It HAS to be. They only have three options:

1. No one has rights. Oops. They don't want to argue that, now, do they?
2. Everyone has rights. Except the Jews. They don't have rights. Oops. That sounds kinda discriminatory, doesn't it?
3. Everyone has rights. Even the Jews. But there are no real Jews. Yeah. That sounds cool. Let's go with that one.

 

[teddyearp]

I think you put that very academically.

 

[Roudy]

A subtitle might be: Can people change their long-held beliefs when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that what they believed is incorrect?

In 1976, a rather brilliant, communist Jew named Arthur Koestler wrote, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage.

The zionists went crazy of course, as it destroyed their narrative, but it's still out there and worth a read, especially considering what we know now.

There are three scientific papers, authored by a Jewish scientist, Dr. Eran Elhaik, which basically conclude that what Koestler wrote in 1976 was in fact true.

Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

In Search of the jüdische Typus: A Proposed Benchmark to Test the Genetic Basis of Jewishness Challenges Notions of “Jewish Biomarkers”

Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

For those not interested in scientific articles, this thread probably isn't for you. But, you still might be interested in this video where he explains DNA GPS tracking in an easy to understand way.



It is what he uses to explain the origin of Yiddish:



Let's try to keep this discussion on an academic level. Thanks.

You mean you don't know the "Khazar theory" has been totally debunked?

 

[abi]

Haha. Are you kidding me? I posted the CONCLUSION of the paper you submitted in the OP. The conclusion was written by the creator of the paper. Are you seriously trying to argue that the researcher in the paper you have submitted for discussion is WRONG about his conclusion?

Chuckle away, and NO, his conclusion is based on everything that you skipped over and supports the Khazar hypothesis.

Haha. Again. Are you kidding me? You are not trying to discredit me but you are pointing out I am ideologically close to a rabid and toxic antisemite. You are transparent as glass.

You did not realize that you are ideologically close to a rabid and toxic anti-Semite. I simply thought that making you aware of this would help you understand the truth. If you feel discredited, accept it, change, and move on.

 

[Ventura77]

A subtitle might be: Can people change their long-held beliefs when confronted with incontrovertible evidence that what they believed is incorrect?

In 1976, a rather brilliant, communist Jew named Arthur Koestler wrote, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage.

The zionists went crazy of course, as it destroyed their narrative, but it's still out there and worth a read, especially considering what we know now.

There are three scientific papers, authored by a Jewish scientist, Dr. Eran Elhaik, which basically conclude that what Koestler wrote in 1976 was in fact true.

Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

In Search of the jüdische Typus: A Proposed Benchmark to Test the Genetic Basis of Jewishness Challenges Notions of “Jewish Biomarkers”

Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz | Genome Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

For those not interested in scientific articles, this thread probably isn't for you. But, you still might be interested in this video where he explains DNA GPS tracking in an easy to understand way.



It is what he uses to explain the origin of Yiddish:



Let's try to keep this discussion on an academic level. Thanks.

Elhaik merely confirms through DNA what most Jews concede to themselves: they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...they are a mangled mutt-mix of eastern European trash...

 

[abi]

Elhaik merely confirms through DNA what most Jews concede to themselves: they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...they are a mangled mutt-mix of eastern European trash...

And since Shusha appears to agree with his conclusion, maybe she can pass this information on to the rest of her team and we can get closer to a solution.

 

[Shusha]

Elhaik merely confirms through DNA what most Jews concede to themselves: they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...they are a mangled mutt-mix of eastern European trash...

And since Shusha appears to agree with his conclusion, maybe she can pass this information on to the rest of her team and we can get closer to a solution.

You misrepresent his conclusion. It does not agree with what Ventura wrote.

 

[Ventura77]

Elhaik merely confirms through DNA what most Jews concede to themselves: they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...they are a mangled mutt-mix of eastern European trash...

And since Shusha appears to agree with his conclusion, maybe she can pass this information on to the rest of her team and we can get closer to a solution.

You misrepresent his conclusion. It does not agree with what Ventura wrote.

To contrary---YOU 'misrepresent' and misinterpret Ehaik's conclusions...this isn't rocket science princess, your problem is that the conclusions discredit your tacky Zionist lies...

 

[Shusha]

Hmmmm. What Dr. Elhaik actually wrote in his conclusion:

We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including ... Judeans and with ... roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.

What you wrote that he wrote:

Elhaik merely confirms ... they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...



You are misrepresenting his conclusion.

 

[Ventura77]

Hmmmm. What Dr. Elhaik actually wrote in his conclusion:

We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including ... Judeans and with ... roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan.

What you wrote that he wrote:

Elhaik merely confirms ... they have zero genetic relation to the ancient Hebrew tribes...



You are misrepresenting his conclusion.

Wrong again princess...can you read and process simultaneously?


New DNA analysis technology shows that Yiddish, the historic language of Ashkenazi Jews, may have originated in northeastern Turkey, according to a study by an Israeli-born researcher.

The study by the University of Sheffield’s Dr. Eran Elhaik, which was published recently in scientific journal Genome Biology, used a Geographic Population Structure (GPS) tool to locate the origins of Yiddish speakers’ DNA. We identified 367 people who claim they have two parents who are Ashkenazic Jews and we divided them into people whose parents only speak Yiddish and then everyone else,” Elhaik told WIRED.
The researchers then used the GPS algorithms to analyze participants’ DNA and predict their most likely geographical origin.

The results, Elhaik said, showed that many of them came from the vicinity of four ancient villages in northern Turkey whose names are conspicuously similar to “Ashkenaz” — Askenaz, Eskenaz, Ashanaz, and Ashkuz — and which are all located near a crossroads of the ancient Silk Road trade route.
The researchers have surmised that the language may have been invented by Iranian and Slavic Jews who traded on the Silk Road around the 9th century.

“We were able to predict the possible ancestral location where Yiddish originated over 1,000 years ago — a question which linguists have debated over for many years,” Elhaik said.

“North east Turkey is the only place in the world where these place names exist — which strongly implies that Yiddish was established around the first millennium at a time when Jewish traders who were plying the Silk Road moved goods from Asia to Europe wanted to keep their monopoly on trade.
“They did this by inventing Yiddish — a secret language that very few can speak or understand other than Jews. Our findings are in agreement with an alternative theory that suggests Yiddish has Iranian, Turkish, and Slavic origins and explains why Yiddish contains 251 words for the terms ‘buy’ and ‘sell’. This is what we can expect from a language of experienced merchants.”

The study suggests that as Jews spread throughout Europe, their language acquired words from other languages in the continent, mainly German.

“Yiddish is such a wonderful and complex language, which was inappropriately called ‘bad German’ by both its native and non-native speakers because the language consists of made-up German words and a non-German grammar,” Elhaik said.

“Yiddish is truly a combination of familiar and adapted German words using Slavic grammar.”

Elhaik told WIRED he hoped to be able to refine and improve the technology, which can currently analyze data from the last millennium or so.

“We’re probably going to do a really good job for 2,000 to 10,000 years ago due to the availability of the DNA from these time periods,” he said.