Why would a God even need a hell?

[Mickiel]

In my understanding there are no laws in heaven; for what?

Are there laws in heaven? Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked? Is God a just God? Does he meet out justice according to his own laws? Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul? You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life. Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil? If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous? Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked? Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself? Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins? Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world? Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man? Too many want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven. God is a just God. Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Well again I disagree, I just do not view scripture like a Christian does. There are no laws in heaven, there are no law breakers there. The Kingdom of God is ruled by Love, peace, Joy, kindness , faith, Goodness ; in other words its ruled by the very character of God and his ways; or the " Fruit of the Spirit", as listed in Gal. 5:22-23;notice last part of verse 23;" Against these ways " There is no law!"

Why would the Kingdom of God need laws? No sin is there.

Just because ppl have learned to live in peace and justice by the laws doesn't mean they cease to exist. They are fulfilled and we follow them naturally by embodying them as Christians represents, fully by conscience reconciled and made one whole new and perfect with God's will truth and laws.

Fulfillment is not the same as abolishment. Mickiel

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God's word or laws remain eternal. There is a scripture that says God's word shall not pass away.

Is there a scripture or two that says the Kingdom of God has laws ? Or a scripture or two or three that say there are laws in heaven? Could you kindly produce them , I would like to see them. I mean you believe it , show us why.

 

[emilynghiem]

In my understanding there are no laws in heaven; for what?

Are there laws in heaven? Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked? Is God a just God? Does he meet out justice according to his own laws? Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul? You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life. Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil? If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous? Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked? Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself? Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins? Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world? Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man? Too many want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven. God is a just God. Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Well again I disagree, I just do not view scripture like a Christian does. There are no laws in heaven, there are no law breakers there. The Kingdom of God is ruled by Love, peace, Joy, kindness , faith, Goodness ; in other words its ruled by the very character of God and his ways; or the " Fruit of the Spirit", as listed in Gal. 5:22-23;notice last part of verse 23;" Against these ways " There is no law!"

Why would the Kingdom of God need laws? No sin is there.

Just because ppl have learned to live in peace and justice by the laws doesn't mean they cease to exist. They are fulfilled and we follow them naturally by embodying them as Christians represents, fully by conscience reconciled and made one whole new and perfect with God's will truth and laws.

Fulfillment is not the same as abolishment. Mickiel

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God's word or laws remain eternal. There is a scripture that says God's word shall not pass away.

Is there a scripture or two that says the Kingdom of God has laws ? Or a scripture or two or three that say there are laws in heaven? Could you kindly produce them , I would like to see them. I mean you believe it , show us why.

Dear Mickiel I think you and I agree that these are God's laws. Man's laws are for us to learn to live by God's laws that ours are a reflection of.

We must become like little children to enter the Kingdom of God.

We live by the two great commandments and the third new commandment to love one another as Christ jesus loves us.

So these laws are fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away bit God's word shall not.

I think you and I are meaning the same thing but saying it differently. When I read what you are saying I agree with you. But the way I say it isn't translating the same to you. But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, even if my words are not perfect enough.

Does that make sense? We agree in spirit but my words fail to express that

 

[Mickiel]

In my understanding there are no laws in heaven; for what?

Are there laws in heaven? Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked? Is God a just God? Does he meet out justice according to his own laws? Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul? You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life. Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil? If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous? Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked? Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself? Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins? Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world? Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man? Too many want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven. God is a just God. Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Well again I disagree, I just do not view scripture like a Christian does. There are no laws in heaven, there are no law breakers there. The Kingdom of God is ruled by Love, peace, Joy, kindness , faith, Goodness ; in other words its ruled by the very character of God and his ways; or the " Fruit of the Spirit", as listed in Gal. 5:22-23;notice last part of verse 23;" Against these ways " There is no law!"

Why would the Kingdom of God need laws? No sin is there.

Just because ppl have learned to live in peace and justice by the laws doesn't mean they cease to exist. They are fulfilled and we follow them naturally by embodying them as Christians represents, fully by conscience reconciled and made one whole new and perfect with God's will truth and laws.

Fulfillment is not the same as abolishment. Mickiel

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God's word or laws remain eternal. There is a scripture that says God's word shall not pass away.

Is there a scripture or two that says the Kingdom of God has laws ? Or a scripture or two or three that say there are laws in heaven? Could you kindly produce them , I would like to see them. I mean you believe it , show us why.

Dear Mickiel I think you and I agree that these are God's laws. Man's laws are for us to learn to live by God's laws that ours are a reflection of.

We must become like little children to enter the Kingdom of God.

We live by the two great commandments and the third new commandment to love one another as Christ jesus loves us.

So these laws are fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away bit God's word shall not.

I think you and I are meaning the same thing but saying it differently. When I read what you are saying I agree with you. But the way I say it isn't translating the same to you. But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, even if my words are not perfect enough.

Does that make sense? We agree in spirit but my words fail to express that

I requested that the biblical proof that heaven has laws, or that the Kingdom of God will have laws be provided ; they have not been provided , because nowhere in the bible does it state that. The Ten commandments are not going to rule heaven ; there are no mothers or fathers in heaven to honor , there will be no killing in heaven, there will be no coveting , no stealing ;no REASON for any laws!

 

[Mickiel]

Why would a God need a hell? I mean were talking about God! God is not infected with the madness of eternal punishment for humans ; that is a human sickness belief.

 

[LittleNipper]

God has no laws in his Kingdom , show me any scriptures that state that.

satan did not break any law of God , he was created to be evil. Old covenant laws did not apply to the devil. satan NEVER lived in God's presence , I would like to see that in scripture.

Satan wanted to usurp GOD. HE wanted to become GOD. He lied to Adam and Eve. All sin ultimately goes back to a desire to take over, manipulate and control. Satan, unlike Adam knew the power of GOD and saw GOD in all His splendor. Satan wanted that and more; however, he is just a created being. Created beings depend on GOD for their existence and survival and not the other way around. The math simply doesn't work that way.

satan did not lie to Adam and Eve; show me where he lied. He did not have to lie, he manipulated them. It was easy , quick and outclassed overpowered manipulation ; and God KNEW it would be that way ; and God did NOT help them.

Genesis 2:

15 Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”

Genesis 3

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Here we can see two lies. One, death is not certain if they eat of that tree. And two, they will be like God.

 

[Mickiel]

God has no laws in his Kingdom , show me any scriptures that state that.

satan did not break any law of God , he was created to be evil. Old covenant laws did not apply to the devil. satan NEVER lived in God's presence , I would like to see that in scripture.

Satan wanted to usurp GOD. HE wanted to become GOD. He lied to Adam and Eve. All sin ultimately goes back to a desire to take over, manipulate and control. Satan, unlike Adam knew the power of GOD and saw GOD in all His splendor. Satan wanted that and more; however, he is just a created being. Created beings depend on GOD for their existence and survival and not the other way around. The math simply doesn't work that way.

satan did not lie to Adam and Eve; show me where he lied. He did not have to lie, he manipulated them. It was easy , quick and outclassed overpowered manipulation ; and God KNEW it would be that way ; and God did NOT help them.

Genesis 2:

15 Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”

Genesis 3

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Here we can see two lies. One, death is not certain if they eat of that tree. And two, they will be like God.

Their eyes were opened and they became like God , knowing good and evil , God said this happened in Gen. 3:22 , so that was no lie. And Adam did not " Surely Die", not then, he lived longer than you or I will; Gen. 5:5 Adam lived 930 years and I speculate Eve lived at least as long, because in verse 4 , he begat children after he was 800. So that was no lie, it was manipulation.

 

[Mickiel]

The Devil did not have to lie to Adam and Eve ; they were like babies in his powerful hands , he manipulated them in seconds, they had absolutely no chance ; they were overpowered and out classed, period! And God did NOT help them! God wanted them to be manipulated , that is WHY the devil was allowed into the garden in the first place.

Their failure prepared the NEED for Christ to come to earth; and that is the result God was after!

 

[Mickiel]

Why would a God need a hell , when in his heart all he has is love?

 

[emilynghiem]

In my understanding there are no laws in heaven; for what?

Are there laws in heaven? Does God consign the righteous to eternally live among the wicked? Is God a just God? Does he meet out justice according to his own laws? Does salvation come to the unrepentant soul? You are worthy of the kingdom that you choose in this life. Has not God given you the opportunity to choose good over evil? If you choose evil over good, is it just that you should spend your time in the hereafter with the righteous? Is not a separation of the wicked from the righteous a hell for the wicked? Did not Lucifer have a choice to follow the laws of God and not become a law unto himself? Has not God called upon all to repent of their sins? Did he not provide a way for the repentant sinner to escape eternal justice by repenting and following after Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of the world? Is it not man who rejects God and not God who rejects man? Too many want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sin and become evil and corrupt and then be allowed into heaven. God is a just God. Only the repentant sinner will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Those who have not repented but continually seek after evil will be damned from entering his kingdom.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Nephi 2:13
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Well again I disagree, I just do not view scripture like a Christian does. There are no laws in heaven, there are no law breakers there. The Kingdom of God is ruled by Love, peace, Joy, kindness , faith, Goodness ; in other words its ruled by the very character of God and his ways; or the " Fruit of the Spirit", as listed in Gal. 5:22-23;notice last part of verse 23;" Against these ways " There is no law!"

Why would the Kingdom of God need laws? No sin is there.

Just because ppl have learned to live in peace and justice by the laws doesn't mean they cease to exist. They are fulfilled and we follow them naturally by embodying them as Christians represents, fully by conscience reconciled and made one whole new and perfect with God's will truth and laws.

Fulfillment is not the same as abolishment. Mickiel

Heaven and earth shall pass away but God's word or laws remain eternal. There is a scripture that says God's word shall not pass away.

Is there a scripture or two that says the Kingdom of God has laws ? Or a scripture or two or three that say there are laws in heaven? Could you kindly produce them , I would like to see them. I mean you believe it , show us why.

Dear Mickiel I think you and I agree that these are God's laws. Man's laws are for us to learn to live by God's laws that ours are a reflection of.

We must become like little children to enter the Kingdom of God.

We live by the two great commandments and the third new commandment to love one another as Christ jesus loves us.

So these laws are fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away bit God's word shall not.

I think you and I are meaning the same thing but saying it differently. When I read what you are saying I agree with you. But the way I say it isn't translating the same to you. But I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, even if my words are not perfect enough.

Does that make sense? We agree in spirit but my words fail to express that

I requested that the biblical proof that heaven has laws, or that the Kingdom of God will have laws be provided ; they have not been provided , because nowhere in the bible does it state that. The Ten commandments are not going to rule heaven ; there are no mothers or fathers in heaven to honor , there will be no killing in heaven, there will be no coveting , no stealing ;no REASON for any laws!

That's still following God's laws.
Just because these are obeyed doesn't mean they cease to exist.

Thus Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Thanks for making that point Mickiel what you are saying in essence is God's laws are fulfilled so we don't try to enforce them using man's ways and man's laws. You call this having no laws, but I call it fulfilling the laws that have always been self existent.

It is like how atheists say the goal is to end all religion. When we fulfill the real purpose it will have the effect of no religion.

 

[emilynghiem]

Why would a God need a hell , when in his heart all he has is love?

The hell or suffering experienced by humans is a natural consequence as a result of going against the grain. Sort of like how cancer can be caused by smoking or bad diet and/or prolonged exposure to adverse chemicals. When we stop these unhealthy things that throw off natural health balance and healing, then we can prevent cancer.

In this analogy cancer is like hell, not a punishment, but consequence of unnatural or unhealthy imbalance that compels us to find and correct the cause. I think we agree on this Mickiel more than we disagree. I also don't think it is effective to keep harping on punishment, but find ppl are more successful by focusing on mutual corrections, shared credit and collective responsibility for solving problems by addressing all the causes instead of fighting over them. Instead of competing to make other ppl wrong, why not compete to make things right?

 

[Mickiel]

Well I personally believe that all the suffering and pain and sin were intentionally placed on all humanity by God; you seem to think sin is an evil thing that we are being judged on how we deal with it , so there is a difference. I think God wanted humanity to be exposed to sin ,not to judge how we handle it ,but it is an essential part of salvation and the change of man ; its an evolution from flesh and sin , to the glory of a whole new existence. Being born again ;but all must suffer persecution ,its the pathology of God. Strange , but I think true.

Notice Jesus in 2Corinth. 12:9," My grace is sufficient for you; for my strength is made perfect in weakness." None of us can avoid the weakness , or the trials.

 

[emilynghiem]

Well I personally believe that all the suffering and pain and sin were intentionally placed on all humanity by God; you seem to think sin is an evil thing that we are being judged on how we deal with it , so there is a difference. I think God wanted humanity to be exposed to sin ,not to judge how we handle it ,but it is an essential part of salvation and the change of man ; its an evolution from flesh and sin , to the glory of a whole new existence. Being born again ;but all must suffer persecution ,its the pathology of God. Strange , but I think true.

Notice Jesus in 2Corinth. 12:9," My grace is sufficient for you; for my strength is made perfect in weakness." None of us can avoid the weakness , or the trials.

Again Mickiel I think we ARE saying the same thing!
The point is to Benefit and grow from the consequences
that allow us to learn from experience and choose by free will and reason.

I think you read what I said backwards to mean the opposite.
I am NOT for, but AGAINST teaching to "judge people as evil" for things judged sinful.
So if you are against this also, we agree in Both being AGAINST "demonizing" this as hell is too often taught.

Another reason I am cautious about NOT teaching God as judgmental is that it ties in with
people being judgmental and not forgiving and correcting problems.
It ties in with people being even more unforgiving and refusing to correct mutual faults.

I think you and I have been misreading or talking past each other,
because when you explain what you MEAN,
that is in AGREEMENT with what I mean and what I am saying also.

So it looks more and more like we agree, and it's just the way
I said it, you thought I meant the opposite. I don't see where I disagree with you,
except I thought you were saying hell doesn't refer to anything that exists or is valid.
You and I mean the same thing, but we don't teach it as sending anyone to hell as a punishment type thing.

 

[Kristian]

To punish people how really need to live a life in hell. Lord and Christ isn't real Gods they are real Satans when they hate God name.

I wonder if Moses are Swedish God in Jews bible.

 

[Mickiel]

Many believers in God seem to actually think that God will judge humanity ; that just is not true. Its unbiblical. In John 5:22 " For the Father judges NO man , but has committed ALL judgment to the Son . " All Judgment means every kind of judgment mentioned in the bible .God is not willing , nor has he willed, ANY to perish, " Any" means nobody!

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell ,when he does not even need the doctrines of men who created that perversion; none of their doctrines.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World " , My goodness , glory to this incredible being . Not the Savior of just those who repent , not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!

Now also notice 1 John 2:2 ," And he is the propitiation for our sins ,( the "Our" here is all believers ) , and NOT ours only ,but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD,( meaning all unbelievers) , . Again this is speaking of world salvation where everyone is included. Praise this Great God!

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need an eternal punishing hell ; you think he is retarded or insane or something? To barbarically keep humans alive and conscious for 897 hundred years of torment , then add 5,000 more years of this insane incredible existence of suffering ; hey now these pitiful humans are really " Super beings" , super sufferers! Make them stand up and hurt them for another 9 million years. Don't let them sleep for another 600 billion years of untold punishing. Starve them for another 5,000 trillion years. Then announce to them all that this is a permanent repeating cycle of their miserable existence. On into infinity.

And this insane belief is believed by the Christian mind, and spread like a into this world!

 

[Picaro]

Hell is a European concept, springing from the Nordic goddess Hel, who ruled over the underworld.

Jews didn't believe in the concept of hell, and there is some debate over whether they believed in the afterlife.

This is an interesting article on Gehenna versus Sheol in Jewish and early Christian literature: Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the ancient Greeks had a taboo against saying ' Hades' and a couple of other feared 'gods' and places as well, if somebody hasn't brought it up already.

 

[Picaro]

Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World " , My goodness , glory to this incredible being . Not the Savior of just those who repent , not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!

Now also notice 1 John 2:2 ," And he is the propitiation for our sins ,( the "Our" here is all believers ) , and NOT ours only ,but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD,( meaning all unbelievers) , . Again this is speaking of world salvation where everyone is included. Praise this Great God!

God spoke to me just this morning; He was laughing, and said to me 'Hey, watch Me screw with this Mickiel pagan. He's really obsessed with Me and yet won't read anything in the Bible in context, making himself even crazier! It's hilarious!"

Okay, I admit my sense of humor isn't nearly as generous as Gods' is, and this is a lame topic with no basis in theology, just sniveling, and boring, not 'funny'.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God even need this Christian hell , when he made sure this verse was recorded in scripture, 1 John 4:14," And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be " The Savior Of The World " , My goodness , glory to this incredible being . Not the Savior of just those who repent , not just believers , but for the WHOLE WORLD!

Now also notice 1 John 2:2 ," And he is the propitiation for our sins ,( the "Our" here is all believers ) , and NOT ours only ,but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD,( meaning all unbelievers) , . Again this is speaking of world salvation where everyone is included. Praise this Great God!

God spoke to me just this morning; He was laughing, and said to me 'Hey, watch Me screw with this Mickiel pagan. He's really obsessed with Me and yet won't read anything in the Bible in context, making himself even crazier! It's hilarious!"

Okay, I admit my sense of humor isn't nearly as generous as Gods' is, and this is a lame topic with no basis in theology, just sniveling, and boring, not 'funny'.

If its lame , explain to me why you visit it ?