Why not, a No Fly List Compromise?

[PredFan]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

 

[OldLady]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

 

[kaz]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

The government likes operating in secrecy

 

[OldLady]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

 

[OldLady]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

The government likes operating in secrecy

Secrecy is necessary; shall we tell the bad guys we're watching them so they can go underground? Think about what you're advocating for.

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

 

[OldLady]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

 

[tinydancer]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

I'm not sure of personal vendettas but stupid mistakes have occurred such as Senator Ted Kennedy being on a no fly list.

And this is how he got on the list. Somebody had used T Kennedy as an alias.

"In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports.[citation needed] He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.)

Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens":

"How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[39] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[OldLady]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

 

[leftwinger]

These "list" have already grown out of control and poorly managed. One list is reportedly over 1mil names! Huh! We got 1mil terrorists running around like free range chicken?

If they thought they could use these "list" for back-door gun control it would grow to 75mil (same as obammy used IRS).

 

[OldLady]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

I'm not sure of personal vendettas but stupid mistakes have occurred such as Senator Ted Kennedy being on a no fly list.

And this is how he got on the list. Somebody had used T Kennedy as an alias.

"In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports.[citation needed] He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.)

Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens":

"How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[39] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tiny, the former director of the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center (which develops the lists) explained during an interview yesterday that Senator Kennedy was never on the no-fly list. A man with a similar name was on an airline's no-fly list because the guy had "inadvertently" packed bullets in a bag at some point. Senator Kennedy may have been held up at airports for three weeks, but it was due to the above, which his buddy Ridge may have helped get to the bottom of, but it had nothing to do with the FBI or the No-Fly list. Ever.

 

[OldLady]

These "list" have already grown out of control and poorly managed. One list is reportedly over 1mil names! Huh! We got 1mil terrorists running around like free range chicken?

If they thought they could use these "list" for back-door gun control it would grow to 75mil (same as obammy used IRS).

The vast majority are not Americans.

 

[dblack]

Because the basic idea of a no-fly list is an attempt to avoid due process.

".... no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane."

This gets right to the core of the problem. How do we know who's a terrorist, and who isn't? And if we know someone is a terrorist, why are we dicking around with petty travel restrictions? We should just kill them.

The problem is that the no-fly list isn't a list of people who are terrorists. It's a list of people that our government thinks might be terrorists.

I'd rather know ahead of time, thanks. I trust our FBI. If you don't, why not?

Know what ahead of time?

A terrorist attack.

Uh.. ok. So would I. What does that have to do with the thread topic?

Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm totally serious. We're talking about the validity of the no-fly list. In particular, I'm criticizing it on the grounds that it undermines civil liberties. It gives government the power to maintain a list of people who can be deprived of their rights without due process. Our Constitution is supposed to protect us from that. Our government should be required to prove that someone is a terrorist before they can treat them like one.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

 

[tinydancer]

Would a separate No-Gun list by the FBI, with the evidence of why signed off on by a judge, make sense to you?
BTW, what makes you think people are put on the existing lists for personal vendetta? Show me one.

I'm not sure of personal vendettas but stupid mistakes have occurred such as Senator Ted Kennedy being on a no fly list.

And this is how he got on the list. Somebody had used T Kennedy as an alias.

"In August 2004, Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) told a Senate Judiciary Committee discussing the No Fly List that he had appeared on the list and had been repeatedly delayed at airports.[citation needed] He said it had taken him three weeks of appeals directly to Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge to have him removed from the list. Kennedy said he was eventually told that the name "T Kennedy" was added to the list because it was once used as an alias of a suspected terrorist. There are an estimated 7,000 American men whose legal names correspond to "T Kennedy". (Senator Kennedy, whose first name was Edward and for whom "Ted" was only a nickname, would not have been one of them.)

Recognizing that as a U.S. Senator he was in a privileged position of being able to contact Ridge, Kennedy said of "ordinary citizens":

"How are they going to be able to get to be treated fairly and not have their rights abused?"[39] Former mayor of New York City Rudy Giuliani pointed to this incident as an example for the necessity to "rethink aviation security" in an essay on homeland security published while he was seeking the Republican nomination for the 2008 presidential election

No Fly List - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tiny, the former director of the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center (which develops the lists) explained during an interview yesterday that Senator Kennedy was never on the no-fly list. A man with a similar name was on an airline's no-fly list because the guy had "inadvertently" packed bullets in a bag at some point. Senator Kennedy may have been held up at airports for three weeks, but it was due to the above, which his buddy Ridge may have helped get to the bottom of, but it had nothing to do with the FBI or the No-Fly list. Ever.

Good grief! It has everything to do with the No Fly List. It shows how fucked up the system is. There are 7,000 men with the name T Kennedy out there. Should those 7,000 innocent T. Kennedys now be denied the 2nd? With no due process?

 

[dblack]

Why not introduce a bill that designs a no fly list and a set of rules for it that make sure due process rights aren't lost?

I'm no legal expert, and I don't even know if it could be done, but there likely is no one here who wants a terrorist buying a gun or getting on a plane. We would also want their purchases and occasionally their travel looked at. But we can't trust our government, republican or democrat, to be able to list whatever person they despise that day.

If anyone knows why this can't be done, I'd like to hear it, or failing that, why it hasn't been done?

if the known terrorist makes a no fly list

why the hell is he/she allowed to walk the streets

Because (and maybe this is your point), the people on the no-fly list aren't known terrorists. They're suspected terrorists. And ANYONE can be a suspect.

in America suspects are afforded all of their rights including DUE PROCESS

which is what the left are feverishly trying to get rid of

Well, no. It's a bi-partisan effort. As I pointed out earlier, Bush and co. foisted the no-fly list on us in the first place.