Why Must We Abandon Our Religious Beliefs to Operate A Business?

[BS Filter]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

No, I'm opposed to all of it. I was just trying to get a handle on whether you're consistent or not. So, you think it should be illegal for businesses to discriminate against Christians, right? Not trying to 'corner' you or anything. Just want to clarify.

Discrimination can be interpreted in many ways. I'm saying if a business doesn't want to serve you because something you request is against their beliefs, that should be their right.

 

[BS Filter]

Queers don't like Christians and deliberately target Christian businesses and deliberately try to destroy them. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

 

[forkup]

Well my Christian friend I think in the NT there are several passages of Jesus accepting sinners. Mary Magdalene for one. In fact the parable of the Good Samaritan is about judging people by their actions, not their piety. But I guess you feel Jesus was mistaken there?

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

And I'm saying that they went against one of the central tenets of their professed religion. I argued the merit of the refusal based on secular morality with Black. You seem to be more interested in talking about the religious morality of it. I find it interesting that when confronted by someone who has an inkling of the NT you seem to want to shut the line of argumentation down.

 

[BS Filter]

Jesus accepted sinners, but show me where he accepted sin. Go ahead.

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

And I'm saying that they went against one of the central tenets of their professed religion. I argued the merit of the refusal based on secular morality with Black. You seem to be more interested in talking about the religious morality of it. I find it interesting that when confronted by someone who has an inkling of the NT you seem to want to shut the line of argumentation down.

What is "central tenet" you're referring to?

 

[forkup]

I don't think the couple was asking their help to have sex, so they weren't asking them to accept their behavior. They just were asking them to accept them.

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

And I'm saying that they went against one of the central tenets of their professed religion. I argued the merit of the refusal based on secular morality with Black. You seem to be more interested in talking about the religious morality of it. I find it interesting that when confronted by someone who has an inkling of the NT you seem to want to shut the line of argumentation down.

What is "central tenet" you're referring to?

Forgiveness

 

[forkup]

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

And I'm saying that they went against one of the central tenets of their professed religion. I argued the merit of the refusal based on secular morality with Black. You seem to be more interested in talking about the religious morality of it. I find it interesting that when confronted by someone who has an inkling of the NT you seem to want to shut the line of argumentation down.

What is "central tenet" you're referring to?

Forgiveness

Btw I'm going AFK any replies will be tomorrow

 

[BS Filter]

The business owners were being forced to accept same-sex marriage. That's a sin according to God.

Nope baking a cake doesn't signal acceptance, it signals sugar rush,if you're my daughter. they weren't asked to perform the ceremony, or to join the couple in the bedroom. They were asked to bake pastry. By the way, if God is all powerful, wouldn't he be able to judge someone fairly who baked a cake but didn't agree with the lifestyle?

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

And I'm saying that they went against one of the central tenets of their professed religion. I argued the merit of the refusal based on secular morality with Black. You seem to be more interested in talking about the religious morality of it. I find it interesting that when confronted by someone who has an inkling of the NT you seem to want to shut the line of argumentation down.

What is "central tenet" you're referring to?

Forgiveness

Nothing to forgive. This isn't about forgiveness. If the queer decided to repent of homosexuality and seek God, then it would be about forgiveness.

 

[dblack]

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

No, I'm opposed to all of it. I was just trying to get a handle on whether you're consistent or not. So, you think it should be illegal for businesses to discriminate against Christians, right? Not trying to 'corner' you or anything. Just want to clarify.

Discrimination can be interpreted in many ways. I'm saying if a business doesn't want to serve you because something you request is against their beliefs, that should be their right.

You seem to be hedging. Should a baker be allowed to refuse to make cakes for Christian services?

 

[BS Filter]

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

No, I'm opposed to all of it. I was just trying to get a handle on whether you're consistent or not. So, you think it should be illegal for businesses to discriminate against Christians, right? Not trying to 'corner' you or anything. Just want to clarify.

Discrimination can be interpreted in many ways. I'm saying if a business doesn't want to serve you because something you request is against their beliefs, that should be their right.

You seem to be hedging. Should a baker be allowed to refuse to make cakes for Christian services?

Not hedging at all. If the baker doesn't believe in Christian services and doesn't want his products involved, sure. I would be happy to take my business elsewhere and wouldn't bother with the business again. I don't think you get it. Christians are being targeted. Christians could not care less about trying to cause harm to the queers that run a business. We don't hate queers. It's the queers that hate God and Christians.

 

[dblack]

Just to clarify, are you opposed to "public accommodations" laws and "protected classes" in general? Or are you merely opposed to gays being added to the list? Would you support abolishing all such laws, even those that protect people from discrimination based on religion?

I don't believe in "protected classes". You think some people are better than others?

No, I'm opposed to all of it. I was just trying to get a handle on whether you're consistent or not. So, you think it should be illegal for businesses to discriminate against Christians, right? Not trying to 'corner' you or anything. Just want to clarify.

Discrimination can be interpreted in many ways. I'm saying if a business doesn't want to serve you because something you request is against their beliefs, that should be their right.

You seem to be hedging. Should a baker be allowed to refuse to make cakes for Christian services?

Not hedging at all. If the baker doesn't believe in Christian services and doesn't want his products involved, sure. I would be happy to take my business elsewhere and wouldn't bother with the business again.

Ok, cool. I agree with you.

I don't think you get it. Christians are being targeted.

I get it. I just don't really care. Or, at least, that's not why I'm opposed to these laws. I'm opposed to anyone using law to force their views on others.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

The owner of Piggie Park didn't refuse service to black people because of their behavior. He refused service based on his religious views that he shouldn't serve food to black people.

You should read the court documents, nowhere was their ever a claim about black peoples behavior, it was about his religious beliefs.


You are free to have you own opinions, you are not free to lie about facts.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

Discrimination can be interpreted in many ways. I'm saying if a business doesn't want to serve you because something you request is against their beliefs, that should be their right.

So you support Piggie Park Enterprises not being able to serve black people based on their religious belief claims.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

Wait a minute. "That's all I know."

You've claimed their went bankrupt because of fines (which hasn't happened).

You've claimed they were "targeted" by gays for being Christian when in fact in both the Sweetcakes and Masterpiece Cakeshop cases the bakeries has provided (A) other baked goods [Masterpiece Cakeshop) and (B) the wedding cake for one of the brides Mother's wedding two years prior and did a good job.


In other words you are just making up stuff because you don't know the facts cases.


>>>>

 

[BS Filter]

Why have we never had a problem like this until recently?

We did. One of the cases was Newman v. Piggie Park Enterpises, someone tried to refuse service to black people based on their religious beliefs.

To cut to the end, they lost their religious exemption claim to Public Accommodation laws. The case was tried 40 years ago.


>>>>

Not the same. Refusing to serve people because of behavior isn't the same as refusing on race. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue. Ya'll keep trying to make it a civil rights issue, but it isn't. That's a lie.

The owner of Piggie Park didn't refuse service to black people because of their behavior. He refused service based on his religious views that he shouldn't serve food to black people.

You should read the court documents, nowhere was their ever a claim about black peoples behavior, it was about his religious beliefs.


You are free to have you own opinions, you are not free to lie about facts.


>>>>

I get that, and I agree with you that he was wrong. You can't discriminate against black people by using Christianity because the Bible and Jesus doesn't discriminate against anyone.

 

[BS Filter]

I know one bakery was asked to make a cake for a same-sex wedding and they refused, then they were sued for discrimination. That's all I know. That should be their right.

Wait a minute. "That's all I know."

You've claimed their went bankrupt because of fines (which hasn't happened).

You've claimed they were "targeted" by gays for being Christian when in fact in both the Sweetcakes and Masterpiece Cakeshop cases the bakeries has provided (A) other baked goods [Masterpiece Cakeshop) and (B) the wedding cake for one of the brides Mother's wedding two years prior and did a good job.


In other words you are just making up stuff because you don't know the facts cases.


>>>>

There are more than one of these cases and they are targeted. Do your research.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I get that, and I agree with you that he was wrong. You can't discriminate against black people by using Christianity because the Bible and Jesus doesn't discriminate against anyone.

Why not? Those were HIS Christian religious beliefs (whether you agree with his interpretation or not).

Should the government pick and choose which religious beliefs are valid?

How about the Muslim airport taxi drivers refusing to pick-up hand handicapped people with guide dogs. They lost in court also.


>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

There are more than one of these cases and they are targeted. Do your research.

You are the one that mentioned that the bakers were "targeted" while - per you own post you know nothing about the facts of the case.

How about you do your own research, you know like reading the actual court documents and the Statement of Facts that the bakers (The Klein's in the Sweetcakes case and Mr. Phillips in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case) agreed to as part of the proceedings.


>>>>

 

[BS Filter]

I get that, and I agree with you that he was wrong. You can't discriminate against black people by using Christianity because the Bible and Jesus doesn't discriminate against anyone.

Why not? Those were HIS Christian religious beliefs (whether you agree with his interpretation or not).

Should the government pick and choose which religious beliefs are valid?

How about the Muslim airport taxi drivers refusing to pick-up hand handicapped people with guide dogs. They lost in court also.


>>>>

You don't get it. You can't make up a religion to hide discrimination behind. Christianity believes marriage is a male and female because Scripture states marriage is a male and female.

 

[BS Filter]

There are more than one of these cases and they are targeted. Do your research.

You are the one that mentioned that the bakers were "targeted" while - per you own post you know nothing about the facts of the case.

How about you do your own research, you know like reading the actual court documents and the Statement of Facts that the bakers (The Klein's in the Sweetcakes case and Mr. Phillips in the Masterpiece Cakeshop case) agreed to as part of the proceedings.


>>>>

All of these cases are because the Christian businesses are targeted to test the new laws pertaining to same-sex marriage. You may not be aware of this. These aren't just coincidences.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This issue doesn’t concern rights or civil liberties – there are no First Amendment issues in play, save that of the fact that public accommodations laws do not violate religious liberty as protected by the Free Exercise Clause.

Indeed, there are no issues in play with regard to any of the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights; nor are there any 14th Amendment issues in play concerning state laws and local measures.

Again, public accommodations laws are necessary, proper regulatory measures authorized by Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

Public accommodations laws are no different than business regulations ensuring a safe work place, ensuring the health and safety of customers, and ensuring environmental protections.