Why is the separation of church and state a seemingly one-way street?

[manifold]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

 

[Si modo]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

I agree, but...and that's a big but...that direction would be a violation of First Amendment rights.

I do think that violations of non-profits concerning partisanship should be better enforced.

You have the freedom to express partisanship as a non-profit, but don't expect any government gifts for it.

 

[uscitizen]

Well Jesus for sure thought religion should stay out of government.

 

[manifold]

Well Jesus for sure thought religion should stay out of government.

Well that for sure can't be true.

If it was, then Christians who follow the word of Christ and believe him to be the Son of God would also believe that, right?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

George Washington - Inaugural Speech to Congress April 30, 1789:

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency ... We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."

Abraham Lincoln:

"It is the duty of nations as well as men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord."

"All the good from the Saviour of the World is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong. All the things desirable to man are contained in it."

John Adams:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion ... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

 

[johnrocks]

Like most every other aspect of intervention being a one way street, social cons aren't against more government, they are just against YOUR kind of more government, get someone elected who wants to legislate all Ten Commandments and the rest of the King James Version into law and you'll have em salivating like a rabid dog.

 

[Gadawg73]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

George Washington - Inaugural Speech to Congress April 30, 1789:

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency ... We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."

Abraham Lincoln:

"It is the duty of nations as well as men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord."

"All the good from the Saviour of the World is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong. All the things desirable to man are contained in it."

John Adams:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion ... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson: "The clergy by getting themselves established by law and ingratiated into the machine of government have been a formidable engine AGAINST THE CIVIL AND RELIGOUS RIGHTS OF MAN."
"I am for religous freedom and against all manuevers to bring about a legal ascendary of one sect over another"
"The law for religous freedom has put down the religous aristocracy of the clergy and resored to the citizen the freedom of the mind"

All said over 200 years ago and today some folks would have us believe we are a Christian nation and the Founders wanted religous influence in government.
The Founders WANTED NO religous influence in government.
Get over it. Need more?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CHURCH (establishment) implies a government organization of religion imposing itself upon the freedom of the people.

RELIGION implies all the ideas people hold regarding their beliefs - they are personal ideas and we have the right to free speech.... no matter what the subject we are not forbidden by the Constitution to express our ideas....whether they are religious or not...and this includes free speech in the public square.

Liberals want freedom FROM religion.....not freedom OF religion...

 

[rdean]

Well Jesus for sure thought religion should stay out of government.

Well that for sure can't be true.

If it was, then Christians who follow the word of Christ and believe him to be the Son of God would also believe that, right?

You can't be serious.

What was the quote?

Render unto Caesar…" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ&#8221 (Matthew 22:21).

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about whether it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority. Interpretations include the belief that

It is good and appropriate to submit to the state when asked;
Spiritual demands supersede earthly demands, but do not abolish them;
The demands of the state are non-negotiable;
Spiritual authority should maintain its independence from temporal authority, which rules by force rather than moral law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar...

 

[manifold]

Liberals want freedom FROM religion.....not freedom OF religion...

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion? If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

George Washington - Inaugural Speech to Congress April 30, 1789:

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency ... We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."

Abraham Lincoln:

"It is the duty of nations as well as men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord."

"All the good from the Saviour of the World is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong. All the things desirable to man are contained in it."

John Adams:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion ... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson: "The clergy by getting themselves established by law and ingratiated into the machine of government have been a formidable engine AGAINST THE CIVIL AND RELIGOUS RIGHTS OF MAN."
"I am for religous freedom and against all manuevers to bring about a legal ascendary of one sect over another"
"The law for religous freedom has put down the religous aristocracy of the clergy and resored to the citizen the freedom of the mind"

All said over 200 years ago and today some folks would have us believe we are a Christian nation and the Founders wanted religous influence in government.
The Founders WANTED NO religous influence in government.
Get over it. Need more?

You do know that the original 13 American colonies had some form of state-supported religion that lasted from 109 years for Pennsylvania upwards to 228 Years for New Hampshire. This in itself shows that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.

Samuel Adams, who has been called 'The Father of the American Revolution' wrote The Rights of the Colonists in 1772, which stated: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."

Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams said "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct"

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." This was said despite the explicit provision in the federal Constitution forbidding any religious test for federal public office.

Justice Joseph Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."

Our constitutional legal system is still based on the Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." The US is still firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be referred to as a Christian nation.

Is America a Christian Nation?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Liberals want freedom FROM religion.....not freedom OF religion...

 

[Flopper]

Well Jesus for sure thought religion should stay out of government.

Well that for sure can't be true.

If it was, then Christians who follow the word of Christ and believe him to be the Son of God would also believe that, right?

You can't be serious.

What was the quote?

Render unto Caesar…" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ&#8221 (Matthew 22:21).

This phrase has become a widely quoted summary of the relationship between Christianity and secular authority. The original message, coming in response to a question of whether it was lawful for Jews to pay taxes to Caesar, gives rise to multiple possible interpretations about whether it is desirable for the Christian to submit to earthly authority. Interpretations include the belief that

It is good and appropriate to submit to the state when asked;
Spiritual demands supersede earthly demands, but do not abolish them;
The demands of the state are non-negotiable;
Spiritual authority should maintain its independence from temporal authority, which rules by force rather than moral law.

Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...

I think it mean you should pay your taxes and you should also pay your obligation to your church, but I'm not very good at these biblical interpretations.

 

[Gadawg73]

Separation of church and state is a fallacy.

Thomas Jefferson:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

George Washington - Inaugural Speech to Congress April 30, 1789:

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency ... We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."

Abraham Lincoln:

"It is the duty of nations as well as men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord."

"All the good from the Saviour of the World is communicated through this Book; but for the Book we could not know right from wrong. All the things desirable to man are contained in it."

John Adams:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion ... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Thomas Jefferson: "The clergy by getting themselves established by law and ingratiated into the machine of government have been a formidable engine AGAINST THE CIVIL AND RELIGOUS RIGHTS OF MAN."
"I am for religous freedom and against all manuevers to bring about a legal ascendary of one sect over another"
"The law for religous freedom has put down the religous aristocracy of the clergy and resored to the citizen the freedom of the mind"

All said over 200 years ago and today some folks would have us believe we are a Christian nation and the Founders wanted religous influence in government.
The Founders WANTED NO religous influence in government.
Get over it. Need more?

You do know that the original 13 American colonies had some form of state-supported religion that lasted from 109 years for Pennsylvania upwards to 228 Years for New Hampshire. This in itself shows that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values.

Samuel Adams, who has been called 'The Father of the American Revolution' wrote The Rights of the Colonists in 1772, which stated: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."

Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams said "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct"

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." This was said despite the explicit provision in the federal Constitution forbidding any religious test for federal public office.

Justice Joseph Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."

Our constitutional legal system is still based on the Jewish/Christian Bible, not the Koran or other holy book. We still observe Sunday, the Christian Sabbath, as an official holiday. Easter and Christmas still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." The US is still firmly part of a Western Civilization fashioned by a Judeo-Christian religious ethic and heritage. Alexis de Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That is still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their particular religion, in accommodation with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may properly be referred to as a Christian nation.

Is America a Christian Nation?

Judeo Christian values are a great thing.
But that is not what you are claiming.
The GOVERNMENT we have Tex was set up as a secular government for a reason.
So that if some numb skull that may take over with a religion OTHER THAN YOURS may put that religion as the official religion and then...
Your ass and everyone else's ass that is with another religion OTHER THAN THE RELIGION OF THE FOLKS IN POWER.............
ARE FUCKED.
Take a look around the world; Iraq, Iran, Serbia, Africa, all over.
That is what happens if you do not seperate the GOVERNMENT from religion.
Why is that such a problem with you? NO ONE denies anyone their right to worship here.
Why do YOU demand your religion be THE religion of the government?
Why?

 

[Ragnar]

Why is it that the concept of separation of church and state is really only ever discussed in terms of the government staying out of religion?

Because the Constitution and more specifically the Bill of Rights are intended as limitations on the power of government not the rights of the people.

Government IS a legal monopoly on the use of force and as such must have very limited powers and very limited windows in which it is allowed to exercise it's power.

If the separation were to be true and definitive, shouldn't religion also stay out of government? Is that even possible?

Please discuss.

No it should not and no it's not even possible in a democratic republic. What would religion staying out of government even mean? Jews can't vote? Muslims can't serve in the military? Christians can't have political rallies? All are absurd questions in a free country.

That said a good point was made above, in that religion should get no government funding of any kind. So called "faith based programs" and the like are a violation of the first Amendment in my opinion, as would be the use of say... Imminent Domain for the purpose of building a religious monument or building of worship. Any use of public funds for religious purpose is wrong IMHO.

("tax exempt status" is fine and indeed necessary as it's not funding and falls under the "shall make no law" part of the first amendment)

On a personal note, I'm an athiest as I think one can really only follow one of two roads here, reason or faith. I choose reason. That said, many very smart people take the road of faith and that can subsume any number of specific religions or forms of spirituality. Most major faiths, in America anyway, are a net possitive and do much more good than harm. Whack jobs are whack jobs and they come from anywhere and everywhere including those who claim "reason" as their guide.

Agnostics, on the other hand, are all pussies and ought to be persecuted.

 

[dilloduck]

Oh lordy----what have religious people done to you this time Mani ?

Shit this stuff gets old. Religious people have no more interest in running your life than your average politician. Which constrains you more ? A particular religion or a government run by professional politicians ?
Find a real bogey man for God's sake.

 

[DiveCon]

Well Jesus for sure thought religion should stay out of government.

Well that for sure can't be true.

If it was, then Christians who follow the word of Christ and believe him to be the Son of God would also believe that, right?

i believe that
that doesnt mean Christians cant be a part of government, but that they should not attempt to push Christianity via their jobs

 

[DiveCon]

whats even more interesting is that i have had a heated discussion with liberals about the government doing things Jesus commanded the church to do and they said the "render unto" means let government do