Why is Obamacare unconstitutional but Medicare is not?

[Oddball]

James Madison --y'know, the guy who WROTE THE CONSTITUTION-- went into explicit detail whet was and wasn't meant by "general welfare" in Federalist #41.

That you want to conveniently suspend actual reality and supplant it with your own, is irrelevant to the fact that Medicare/Medicaid and all other forms of socialized medical services are completely beyond the intended scope of the powers enumerated to congress.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Thanks for adding to the conversation. The question remains why can't anyone be honest about this? If it was the intent of the framers to allow the concept of general welfare to truly be interpreted generally

They wrote GENERAL welfare - I fail to how they could have not MEANT "GENERAL" welfare. Sorry, but I'm going with what the CONSTITUTION SAYS.

thus granting the fed the ability to make any half ass claim it wants to for 'general welfare' for the purpose of collecting taxes,

Whatever claim they decide to make there's still this whole "democracy" thing they get subjected to every 2 or 6 years. That's the whole idea. The Congress is the representative will of the People and States. Maybe you didn't get that in civics class.

why on earth would they follow that clause with a hughly SPECIFIC list (as in NOT general) of the things they wanted the fed to be able to do?

The first clause only gives them the power to TAX AND SPEND for the general welfare - it doesn't give them the power to pass ANY law for the general welfare. For instance - they can't pass a law requiring every American do 50 situps and 50 pushups every morning. That might be reasonably good for the general welfare, but its not an appropriation of funds - its a restriction on peoples actions - therefore, not allowed by the general welfare clause.

Taket this power:

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

This would not be allowed under the general welfare clause by itself, because regulating commerce isn't taxing and spending - its regulating people's behaviors.

I prefer James Madison's take

I thought the Constitution was clear and there was no room for interpretation?

on the issue who essentially notes exactly as I do that anyone who tries to pretend that 'collect taxes......for the general welfare' doesn't refer specifcally to the list immediatley following it is being purposefully obtuse and and dishonest.

That's great he said that, but his opinions do not constitute legally binding law.

As far as Obama's position that everyone be required to purchase insureance, that can't even remotely be argued as a matter of tax collection for the general welfare because it deosn't require the collection of taxes to impose.

Dude - the government has required everyone purchase medicare insurance for decades now. its constitutional. GET OVER IT.

 

[Zona]

Why is Obamacare unconstitutional but Medicare is not?

They said medicare was unconstitutional. In fact, if you look hard enough, every single thing they are saying about Obama healthcare, they said about medicare and social security.

ONCE AGAIN, THE REPUBLICANS WILL GO DOWN ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY. Once again.

Just because those things made it into law doesn't mean they still aren't unconstitutional. It just means some administration chose to ignore it.

Please exound on how its unconstitutional please. I dont mean a link to Beck saying it, I mean you explain how its unconstitutional.

 

[Zona]

Who is it that is making that argument?

Rush, hannity, beck, all their fans and the idiots in here.


If you have insurance, this wont affect you in the least bit. Well, it will change the costs eventually. It will be lower because of COMPETITION.

Did you enjoy your last rate hike?

Libs like yourself only now how to solve problems one way; let government do it. This despite the track record of government's overwhelming ineffeciency and ineptness at running anything. This doesn't need to be politcal at all. There are simply efficient ways to spend money and inefficient ways to spend money. People spending other people's money on other people is one of the least efficient ways to spend money. That also happens to be the only way government has the ability to spend money. In the long run most everything government monkeys with has failed as a result of governmenet monkeying with it.

So you like the way the "free market" is doing well as far as health care? This proposed bill will not make it so its a government run health care system, only a small part and you wont be affected in any way.

By they way, my government run Tricare is running just fine.

 

[Oddball]

So you like the way the "free market" is doing well as far as health care? This proposed bill will not make it so its a government run health care system, only a small part and you wont be affected in any way.

By they way, my government run Tricare is running just fine.

There is no free market in health care....That's why it's so screwed up.

 

[Yurt]

post 22 spidey

you can't get around it...

 

[Oddball]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

A-yup.

 

[Bern80]

That's great he said that, but his opinions do not constitute legally binding law.

You are a hypocrite. First you claim you are going by what the constitution says, then when presented with what is MEANT by what the constitution says you get to conveniently ignore it. You are the one that has zero credibility left friend.

Dude - the government has required everyone purchase medicare insurance for decades now. its constitutional. GET OVER IT.

Ah so your position now is if congress does it it must be constitutional? You truly are a fuckwit.

 

[Yurt]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

A-yup.

and thanks to court packing threat by FDR, scotus lost its independence and basically ruled that GW means almost anything....i would like to see the issues in those cases revisited, this time without the executive branch threatening to pack the court with people who will rule in the executive's favor.....

 

[mudwhistle]

Why is Obamacare unconstitutional but Medicare is not?

Medicare is voluntary.

Obama wants his health plan to be mandatory punishable by fines and possible jail terms.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

You are a hypocrite. First you claim you are going by what the constitution says, then when presented with what is MEANT by what the constitution says you get to conveniently ignore it.

You don't have to present me with what it means, I already understand the meaning of words. I don't need James Madison to explain it to me, the Congress has the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; - I know this because it says PRECISELY that in the constitution.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Medicare is voluntary.

No it isn't. Everyone is forced to by Medicare, its taken out of your paycheck.

You're an idiot, BTW.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Hey, I'm sorry, I had no idea that James Madison was the only founding father. I thought there was a guy named Thomas Jefferson, too.

“[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.” - Thomas Jefferson


But I guess only the Founding Fathers whose views are in line with the modern right wingers actually count.


Me, personally, I'll go with what the Constitution says.

 

[sboyle24]

Why is Obamacare unconstitutional but Medicare is not?

You shouldn't call it Obamacare, it is called healthcare reform. To call it Obamacare is to perpetuate unrelated political qualms.

The constitutionality of healthcare reform has been under scrutiny for some time. The 2009 bill had some portions which can be considered unconstitutional.

The main focus is over the 10th amendment, which is summarized as follows:


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
(Amendment X)



Snopes has analyzed to the constitutionality of healthcare reform as well;

Their article correctly attributes the source of a letter to some lawyer, though doesn't specify whether or not reform is constitutional.

snopes.com: Michael Connelly on the Constitutionality of Health Care Reform


Snopes' conclusive statement in that article is possible the best answer to your question:

"All such pronouncements are, for the time being, opinion - whether some aspects of health care reform legislation are indeed unconstitutional is an issue that will only be resolved if and when cases challenging them are brought before U.S. courts."

 

[Yurt]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Hey, I'm sorry, I had no idea that James Madison was the only founding father. I thought there was a guy named Thomas Jefferson, too.

“[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.” - Thomas Jefferson


But I guess only the Founding Fathers whose views are in line with the modern right wingers actually count.


Me, personally, I'll go with what the Constitution says.

lmao....he doesn't define general welfare and this is your response....

you don't know, so you'll call it anything you want

what is pathetic about the same people claiming h/c is constitutional because of some vague term are the very same people who have no problem claiming the specific type of waterboarding is unconstitutional....they very same people who claim a court must determine if h/c is unconstitutional, have already claimined the specific waterboarding is unconstitutional....

irony, to say the least

 

[Yurt]

You are a hypocrite. First you claim you are going by what the constitution says, then when presented with what is MEANT by what the constitution says you get to conveniently ignore it.

You don't have to present me with what it means, I already understand the meaning of words. I don't need James Madison to explain it to me, the Congress has the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; - I know this because it says PRECISELY that in the constitution.

LOL....so to you, GW means anything YOU want it too

 

[Bern80]

You are a hypocrite. First you claim you are going by what the constitution says, then when presented with what is MEANT by what the constitution says you get to conveniently ignore it.

You don't have to present me with what it means, I already understand the meaning of words. I don't need James Madison to explain it to me, the Congress has the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; - I know this because it says PRECISELY that in the constitution.

Thank you for making my point about people being purposfully obtuse. Everything we know about the constitution, about the guiding principles around which the document was written scream that that isn't true. One of those themes was limited central government.

I know you have your head in the sand on this one, BUT THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION SAYS YOU ARE WRONG.

No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

When Madison said the above about the general wellfare clause he was speaking directly to dipshits like yourself who would attempt to take the proverbial ball and run. You would rather sit their and go 'look what i can get away with' rather than grow up and recognize the real danger such a ridiculous interpretation puts your freedoms in.

 

[Bern80]

You are a hypocrite. First you claim you are going by what the constitution says, then when presented with what is MEANT by what the constitution says you get to conveniently ignore it.

You don't have to present me with what it means, I already understand the meaning of words. I don't need James Madison to explain it to me, the Congress has the power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; - I know this because it says PRECISELY that in the constitution.

LOL....so to you, GW means anything YOU want it too

No no no. We can vote them out remember. That is until they decide it's in the best interest of the country to collec taxes to support an appointed king rather than actually bother with leaving these things to the citizenry.

 

[Bern80]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Hey, I'm sorry, I had no idea that James Madison was the only founding father. I thought there was a guy named Thomas Jefferson, too.

“[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.” - Thomas Jefferson


But I guess only the Founding Fathers whose views are in line with the modern right wingers actually count.


Me, personally, I'll go with what the Constitution says.

Much as your idiot mind would like to believe, this is not a contradiction. History shows that Madison and Jefferson AGREED on this issue but you are again being obtuse in assuming because Jefferson comments in no more detail on the matter that he meant for general wellfare to be interpreted broadly. The FACT is he did not: Here's another quote by Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson concurred with Madison on this issue of constraint:

"I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people." [10th Amendment] "To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." Thomas Jefferson: National Bank Opinion, 1791. [/B]

 

[SpidermanTuba]

"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

Hey, I'm sorry, I had no idea that James Madison was the only founding father. I thought there was a guy named Thomas Jefferson, too.

“[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.” - Thomas Jefferson


But I guess only the Founding Fathers whose views are in line with the modern right wingers actually count.


Me, personally, I'll go with what the Constitution says.

lmao....he doesn't define general welfare and this is your response....

you don't know, so you'll call it anything you want

what is pathetic about the same people claiming h/c is constitutional because of some vague term are the very same people who have no problem claiming the specific type of waterboarding is unconstitutional....they very same people who claim a court must determine if h/c is unconstitutional, have already claimined the specific waterboarding is unconstitutional....

irony, to say the least

Torture is a federal crime.

And if you don't know what "general welfare" means pick up a dictionary.