Why I Don't Need God | The Hitchens Challenge

[Si modo]

but I wonder why people don't feel comfortable attempting to make a case.

Well, at a wild guess, in many cases it's because they're being asked to make a case for something they don't believe. That certainly makes me unwilling to do so.

people not only believe godly people are more moral, they believe we need god to be moral. they state this all the time, but when asked to provide an example...



... is truthy lurking?

It's called "cheap talk" - make a claim but don't support it.

It happens way more than it should, IMO.

 

[koshergrl]

I've asked this question before but it's worth repeating.

Who is the the moral man; is it the man who believes in god and does good works out of fear of a punishment or to attain some reward in the afterlife or is it the man who does not believe in god yet does good works for their own sake not motivated by fear of punishment or reward in heaven?

The moral man is the man who is good because it's the right thing to do.

You are mistaken in your analysis of why godly people are "moral". It isn't because they fear punishment...we will all be punished, and one can be saved and immoral. Godly people are moral for the sake of good, and God, and for love of God, and their fellow man.

It isn't because they're quaking in their shoes that every time they act selfishly they'll get some sort of punishment. We operate outside the realm of fear, because our salvation is guaranteed.

 

[Si modo]

I've asked this question before but it's worth repeating.

Who is the the moral man; is it the man who believes in god and does good works out of fear of a punishment or to attain some reward in the afterlife or is it the man who does not believe in god yet does good works for their own sake not motivated by fear of punishment or reward in heaven?

The moral man is the man who is good because it's the right thing to do.

You are mistaken in your analysis of why godly people are "moral". It isn't because they fear punishment...we will all be punished, and one can be saved and immoral. Godly people are moral for the sake of good, and God, and for love of God, and their fellow man.

It isn't because they're quaking in their shoes that every time they act selfishly they'll get some sort of punishment. We operate outside the realm of fear, because our salvation is guaranteed.

So, you believe in a god who is all good and emulate him?

 

[Dragon]

but I wonder why people don't feel comfortable attempting to make a case.

Well, at a wild guess, in many cases it's because they're being asked to make a case for something they don't believe. That certainly makes me unwilling to do so.

people not only believe godly people are more moral, they believe we need god to be moral. they state this all the time, but when asked to provide an example...

Who is "people"? Who is "they"? Obviously your list doesn't include me.

I've explained why I have no desire to answer the question, it simply has no meaning or significance for me.

 

[koshergrl]

I've asked this question before but it's worth repeating.

Who is the the moral man; is it the man who believes in god and does good works out of fear of a punishment or to attain some reward in the afterlife or is it the man who does not believe in god yet does good works for their own sake not motivated by fear of punishment or reward in heaven?

The moral man is the man who is good because it's the right thing to do.

You are mistaken in your analysis of why godly people are "moral". It isn't because they fear punishment...we will all be punished, and one can be saved and immoral. Godly people are moral for the sake of good, and God, and for love of God, and their fellow man.

It isn't because they're quaking in their shoes that every time they act selfishly they'll get some sort of punishment. We operate outside the realm of fear, because our salvation is guaranteed.

So, you believe in a god who is all good and emulate him?

I believe God is entirely righteous, yes.

I try to follow Christ. I don't fool myself that I come close to emulating him.

 

[Si modo]

The moral man is the man who is good because it's the right thing to do.

You are mistaken in your analysis of why godly people are "moral". It isn't because they fear punishment...we will all be punished, and one can be saved and immoral. Godly people are moral for the sake of good, and God, and for love of God, and their fellow man.

It isn't because they're quaking in their shoes that every time they act selfishly they'll get some sort of punishment. We operate outside the realm of fear, because our salvation is guaranteed.

So, you believe in a god who is all good and emulate him?

I believe God is entirely righteous, yes.

I try to follow Christ. I don't fool myself that I come close to emulating him.

The reason I ask is to better understand those who have a strong faith. I've seen several claim that the reason many have morals is because of fear of what will happen in an afterlife, for example. Fear has always been a very crappy motivator for me, so I wasn't understanding that claim too much.

But, if folks have morals because they wish to emulate a being they admire, love, etc. and who is all good, then that makes more sense to me.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Well, at a wild guess, in many cases it's because they're being asked to make a case for something they don't believe. That certainly makes me unwilling to do so.

people not only believe godly people are more moral, they believe we need god to be moral. they state this all the time, but when asked to provide an example...



... is truthy lurking?

It's called "cheap talk" - make a claim but don't support it.

It happens way more than it should, IMO.

Hey! I resemble that remark.



.

 

[Ariux]

Christopher Hitchens, you know who he is/was. Christopher Hitchens challenged people to name two things:

Yeah, Hitchens was a miserable drunkard who eventually died from complications from long-term drug abuse.

Hitchens fulfilled one stereotype about Atheists, that they're miserable (such as without hope). Really, what credibility does have have to refute any common belief about Atheists? Atheists have no moral compass.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Well, at a wild guess, in many cases it's because they're being asked to make a case for something they don't believe. That certainly makes me unwilling to do so.

people not only believe godly people are more moral, they believe we need god to be moral. they state this all the time, but when asked to provide an example...

Who is "people"? Who is "they"? Obviously your list doesn't include me.

I've explained why I have no desire to answer the question, it simply has no meaning or significance for me.

Yet you felt a desire to address the question(s) in your own way (according to you).

 

[Si modo]

Christopher Hitchens, you know who he is/was. Christopher Hitchens challenged people to name two things:

.... Atheists have no moral compass.

Bullshit.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Christopher Hitchens, you know who he is/was. Christopher Hitchens challenged people to name two things:

Yeah, Hitchens was a miserable drunkard who eventually died from complications from long-term drug abuse.

Hitchens fulfilled one stereotype about Atheists, that they're miserable (such as without hope). Really, what credibility does have have to refute any common belief about Atheists? Atheists have no moral compass.

::: fail ::: poor baby -- you can't even be Christian - your immorality has you striking out blindly ::::fail:::::

now go pray for forgiveness before your almighty gawd puts your name on the nazi list 'to the left'

 

[Dragon]

Yet you felt a desire to address the question(s) in your own way (according to you).

It's an interest in intellectual integrity mostly. Let's ensure that no claim is made beyond the scope of what is justified here. This has some bearing on the relationship of religious belief to morality, but only some (for example, one could claim, with greater surface plausibility, a statistical improvement of moral behavior with religious belief, rather than the absolute binary that Hitchens was talking about -- I'm not claiming that, in fact, but suggesting that his challenge doesn't cover it). And it has no bearing at all on larger questions such as the existence of God, what God would be if he/she/it does exist, or the validity of spirituality.

 

[koshergrl]

Intellectual integrity?

Ironic post of the day.

 

[koshergrl]

Not only that..he's claiming it's a matter of intellectual integrity for him to discuss the topic dishonestly.

DOUBLE irony.

 

[KevinWestern]

I'm a non believer, but here's my response to the OP.

What is moral and what isn't moral will vary significantly if the Christian god exists as described, or doesn't actually exist.

Lets for the sake of the argument say that the Christian god does actually exist. In this case, it WOULD be considered "moral" to believe in this god, and would be considered moral for one to sincerely encourage those around to do the same because - according to Christians - that is the only way one will be saved when they perish.

A non believer, by definition, cannot believe in god and therefore it is a moral action he/she cannot partake in while a believer can.

I think Chris lays out this challenge based on the assumption that the Christian god doesn't exist, which is a flawed approach.

Again, I myself am a non believer, but this is just my objective take on the challenge.

 

[Ariux]

::: fail ::: poor baby -- you can't even be Christian - your immorality has you striking out blindly ::::fail:::::

It wasn't like you could reply and refute me.

 

[Truthmatters]

there is not god and the sooner mankind accepts that the better decisions we will make

It is impossible for humanity ever to realize this.

why?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

a response...

I'm a non believer, but here's my response to the OP.

What is moral and what isn't moral will vary significantly if the Christian god exists as described, or doesn't actually exist.

Lets for the sake of the argument say that the Christian god does actually exist. In this case, it WOULD be considered "moral" to believe in this god, and would be considered moral for one to sincerely encourage those around to do the same because - according to Christians - that is the only way one will be saved when they perish.

A non believer, by definition, cannot believe in god and therefore it is a moral action he/she cannot partake in while a believer can.

I think Chris lays out this challenge based on the assumption that the Christian god doesn't exist, which is a flawed approach.

Again, I myself am a non believer, but this is just my objective take on the challenge.

yet, cannot name one action or statement.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yet you felt a desire to address the question(s) in your own way (according to you).

It's an interest in intellectual integrity mostly. Let's ensure that no claim is made beyond the scope of what is justified here.

This has some bearing on the relationship of religious belief to morality, but only some (for example, one could claim, with greater surface plausibility, a statistical improvement of moral behavior with religious belief, rather than the absolute binary that Hitchens was talking about -- I'm not claiming that, in fact, but suggesting that his challenge doesn't cover it).

And it has no bearing at all on larger questions such as the existence of God, what God would be if he/she/it does exist, or the validity of spirituality.

I think Hitchens' challenge covers what it covers. What you are doing is what most are doing because (I believe) it is impossible to list an action or statement that proves humanity needs a supernatural daddy, in order to exist as moral beings. Morality is not tied to a belief in god.

any other question is just that, another question

 

[Dragon]

there is not god and the sooner mankind accepts that the better decisions we will make

It is impossible for humanity ever to realize this.

why?

Because of the existence of spiritual experience, which makes the belief in something that might go by the title "God" (whether conventionally conceived or not) impossible to deny. As long as that experience continues to occur, it will never happen that all of humanity becomes atheist as that term is usually used.