Why i am agnostic

[Stitchman]

I was raised as a christian. At eleven, I started having some doubts in god and christianity as a whole. Once, while doing homework, I was required to look up John Adams in the Encyclopedia, and stumbeled on the word Agnostic. I read the definition, and it basically said

"a person who believes that, at our present level of knowledge, we cannot know whether or not a God exists."

And i agreed with that. Thats very true. So, before making the choice to officialy convert to agnosticism, i read more about it. I read a 30+ page thoery on agnosticism, and i then nearly fell in love with the religion. I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons. I would like to share with yoy all the 30+ page theory that i read. I know its really, really long, but it really changed my veiw on religion, and i think that it would change yours as well if you read the theory with an open mind.



http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

 

[5stringJeff]

I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons.

Stitch, I'm curious (not yet having read the article): if someone presented a different religion to you in a logical sense, using proofs, etc. etc., would you believe it?

 

[Stitchman]

Stitch, I'm curious (not yet having read the article): if someone presented a different religion to you in a logical sense, using proofs, etc. etc., would you believe it?

I say that it is the religion of logic because all religions claim that their god is the only one - that there are no other gods - that all of the other religions are a bunch of crap. Well, the way i see it, every religion is contradicting all of the other ones. And please, save your breath and don't present christianity in a "logical sense" to me. Been there, done that.


P.S. who is that guy on your avatar?

 

[Stitchman]

also just wanna say this quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen Roberts)

 

[5stringJeff]

I say that it is the religion of logic because all religions claim that their god is the only one - that there are no other gods - that all of the other religions are a bunch of crap. Well, the way i see it, every religion is contradicting all of the other ones. And please, save your breath and don't present christianity in a "logical sense" to me. Been there, done that.


P.S. who is that guy on your avatar?

The guy in my avatar is Matt Morginsky, the lead singer of the O.C. Supertones. I kind of look like him, or so I've been told!

As to the logic... yes, all religions are eventually self-contradictory, so at most, one could be correct. Does that mean we should reject them all, or should we attempt to see if any of them are correct?

Also, having read your article, I can find three major points that turned the author off to Christianity:

1. The doctrine of hell.
2. The existence of evil/suffering.
3. The preception that Christianity and science are irreconcilable.

Pretty standard arguments, all of which have been rebutted in various places. Also, I notice that the author didn't bother to look into the truthfulness of the claims of any other religion, nor did he come out and claim to be an atheist, which would have at least shown me that he had guts. Instead, he basically said, 'Christianity is flase, and I'm too lazy to look into the rest, so I'll be an agnostic.'

 

[Stitchman]

The guy in my avatar is Matt Morginsky, the lead singer of the O.C. Supertones. I kind of look like him, or so I've been told!

As to the logic... yes, all religions are eventually self-contradictory, so at most, one could be correct. Does that mean we should reject them all, or should we attempt to see if any of them are correct?

Also, having read your article, I can find three major points that turned the author off to Christianity:

1. The doctrine of hell.
2. The existence of evil/suffering.
3. The preception that Christianity and science are irreconcilable.

Pretty standard arguments, all of which have been rebutted in various places. Also, I notice that the author didn't bother to look into the truthfulness of the claims of any other religion, nor did he come out and claim to be an atheist, which would have at least shown me that he had guts. Instead, he basically said, 'Christianity is flase, and I'm too lazy to look into the rest, so I'll be an agnostic.'

he is agnostic because he, as i do, believe that it is just ignorance to say that there is only one god, or in the atheists case, that there is no god.

 

[freeandfun1]

he is agnostic because he, as i do, believe that it is just ignorance to say that there is only one god, or in the atheists case, that there is no god.

Been following along fine until this statement. Since you don't know if there is only one god or not, that is the ignorance. It isn't necessarily ignorant of others to believe there is one god. You are attempting to lay your ignorance on others by making that statement. Why don't you just say, "we think it is wrong to say there is only one god"? The ingorance part has no place in what I thought was going to be a civil discussion. Basically, you just called me, Jeff and many others on here ignorant because we don't follow your belief system. You called us ignorant because you are ignorant of whether there is but one god or many.

 

[5stringJeff]

he is agnostic because he, as i do, believe that it is just ignorance to say that there is only one god, or in the atheists case, that there is no god.

So you think it's ignorance to say that there are either 0 or 1 gods. Is it ignorance to think there are more than one gods?

And what if someone wanted to find out for sure? Is it futile to seek out the truth about God? Is God unknowable?

 

[Annie]

also just wanna say this quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen Roberts)

I have no problem with your disbelief, but I find your quote disrespectful in this context, to Jeff or any that would try to converse with you. BTW I am NOT necessarily in lockstep with his or any of the other's descriptions of their beliefs, though I DO respect them and the other posters.

 

[manu1959]

also just wanna say this quote:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen Roberts)

"I contend that we both belive in god. I just believe in one more god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the possible gods, you will understand why I can accept one."

:funnyface​

 

[YoungChristian]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

 

[manu1959]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

how would you explain these same results in Japan with those of the Buddhist faith?

 

[YoungChristian]

Honestly, Manu, I don't know. I've never met a Buddhist and don't really understand the religion. I just know what I've seen and experienced in my short lifetime. There is enough outside proof to lead me to believe that Jesus was who He said He was. Read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel to understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Avatar4321]

I was raised as a christian. At eleven, I started having some doubts in god and christianity as a whole. Once, while doing homework, I was required to look up John Adams in the Encyclopedia, and stumbeled on the word Agnostic. I read the definition, and it basically said

"a person who believes that, at our present level of knowledge, we cannot know whether or not a God exists."

And i agreed with that. Thats very true. So, before making the choice to officialy convert to agnosticism, i read more about it. I read a 30+ page thoery on agnosticism, and i then nearly fell in love with the religion. I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons. I would like to share with yoy all the 30+ page theory that i read. I know its really, really long, but it really changed my veiw on religion, and i think that it would change yours as well if you read the theory with an open mind.

The only problem is it's totally false. I am amazed at the logic of the agnostics. God has the power to create the heavens and the earth, but somehow communicating with man is beyond Him. Why would people claiming that we can't know God exist change my view on religion, when I already do know God exists? See, why you are content to say no one can know God, I was not. So I humbled myself before Him in prayer and asked Him to let me know if He was there and to lead me to His truth if He was. And I gained a manifestation that He is there. Since then I've seen the humble seekers of God come to know Him. I've preached by His Spirit. Seen people healed. I've been healed by His power. I've had immediate answers to my prayers. After seeing all this do you honestly expect me or anyone else with similiar experiences to believe as you do that we cannot know God exists, simply because you say it? Simply because you don't know, doesn't mean that others don't either. God lives. I know that for myself.

BTW an Open mind never says that something cannot be known. Because the second one says that is the second one stops learning.

 

[Stitchman]

I'd like to apologize for bringing up such an old post, but I'd be intrigued as to how I would handle such a debate five years after making this thread. First off, I'd really like to apologize, not only about this post, but about how I used to act on this forum in general (I'd doubt that any of you would remember though), for such close-mindedness and at times, rudeness. I was in middle school, I was a dumb kid, and it was a really long time ago.

That being said, I still am an agnostic. I still don't believe that we are able to know for certain if a divine force exists or not. Obviously, the universe came into creation somehow, but I don't think it's reasonable to jump to the conclusion that it was God who put everything here.

So my question to any believers out there is:
how can you have blind faith (I don't use that term with a negative connotation, it is what it is) in a single, exclusive religion? There are countless differing, exclusive faiths in this world. The chance any given believer would actually be correct in their beliefs has to at least be 1/3 (this is an incredibly generous ratio; it's hypothetical and only would be true if any type of Christianity would be considered "correct," which, seemingly, most Christian institutions do not believe themselves). No offense, but a reply such as "I know because I God has in one way or another confirmed this" isn't of much use; members of different religions use this same argument, which in my mind voids it.

From this point on, none of this is really relevant to the whole "existence of god" debate, but I think some might be interested.

I actually have explored this topic a great deal. I was raised Catholic, and I have gone on three church retreats with my youth group and even led one a few months ago. I really love my youth group; they are incredibly accepting of me being a nonbeliever and I can gain so much from their humanity. I have been brought to tears at a church retreat and I do believe that I felt whatever God is. But I don't see this as evidence of his existence either. It was really a response to the massive amounts of love that was present at the time. Call me an optimist, but I attribute that to the individuals in the room and what we were able to accomplish together. From that point on, I've been trying to find a way to allow for the rationality of secularism and the faith of religion. I've progressed pretty far in this, I'd say. Let's start my train of thought here: Consider this: How great is the bible? How wonderful is Jesus? My answer to both questions is, extremely! However, I believe the bible, as well as all holy books, to be written by man. With this in mind, I believe religion to be the greatest window into the nature of humanity. If you left man to create his own universe, you would essentially have a religion. And what is a better way to discover the true nature of humanity than to examine what would happen if they played God themselves? Just look at what we've come up with! Here is our true nature! I don't believe any religion to be more valid than any other, so in that sense I'm a pluralist. I'm with Gandhi on this one; "Truth is God" (by the way, he originally had written "God is Truth," but years later, he switched the words around).

I did my senior project on the question of God and religion. I even read the first few chapters of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, which my english teacher had personally recommended. I stopped after his argument to support that the law of nature (the individual's awareness that certain actions are wrong that does not originate internally, but externally) has divine origin. I find it kind of silly; I don't see how societal forces did not construct this. Tabula rasa trumps the law of nature, in my opinion.

Part of my point in writing about this stuff is that I don't like how secularists and theists are so opposed and view themselves so differently. I think there's much to celebrate in both viewpoints. In truth, I wish I believed in God. As a secularist, this whole world and the nature of my existence is uncertain. So please, I welcome the arguments. Some of my beliefs may offend certain individuals, but I certainly don't mean them to. I'd hope that you wouldn't be offended by my belief that adhering to an exclusive spiritual ideology is illogical, just as I am not offended by those who think I'm damned to hell because I don't put blind faith in Jesus Christ.

To make this post even longer, sorry about the general choppyness of this post. I'm not that great at organizing my thoughts. Thanks for reading this far, haha.

 

[Avatar4321]

Welcome back. I was reading through the thread and was startled to see I had responded to it already. Then i looked at the dates.

There is only one way to learn about God and that is from God. "If any of you lack wisdom, let Him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given unto him." James 1:5

The only way to know God is the way Peter learned that Jesus is the Christ.

We all have to make one of two choices in life. We can live in ignorance, not knowing whether or not God is real or what He teaches. Or we can search and find out for ourselves.

 

[JohnA]

There are many logical, even scientific, reasons that point to there being a God. There is also sound historical arguments for Jesus living, dying, and raising again, proving that He was God. But the main reason that I believe in Jesus is because of the life-transforming power that I've felt because of Him. There is no logical explanation for speaking in tongues or prophecies. There is no logical explanation for the peace I feel when I pray. There is no logical explanation for a racist suddenly becoming loving towards all. And, there is no logical explanation for a drug addict to suddenly have no urge to do drugs again. That is simply the "wonder-working power" of Jesus' blood.

there is a logical reason why i feel at peace when i never utter a prayer
there is a logical reason why i dont hold any racist feeiing and love humanity as a whole
the is a logical reason why as a teen i took drugs and am now free of them
its simply cus i took control of my life, have no fear of being sent to hell when i die and have nor reason to hate anybody cus im a mature reasoned person .

 

[JohnA]

I was raised as a christian. At eleven, I started having some doubts in god and christianity as a whole. Once, while doing homework, I was required to look up John Adams in the Encyclopedia, and stumbeled on the word Agnostic. I read the definition, and it basically said

"a person who believes that, at our present level of knowledge, we cannot know whether or not a God exists."

And i agreed with that. Thats very true. So, before making the choice to officialy convert to agnosticism, i read more about it. I read a 30+ page thoery on agnosticism, and i then nearly fell in love with the religion. I believe that agnosticism is the religion of logic, for obvois reasons. I would like to share with yoy all the 30+ page theory that i read. I know its really, really long, but it really changed my veiw on religion, and i think that it would change yours as well if you read the theory with an open mind.

The only problem is it's totally false. I am amazed at the logic of the agnostics. God has the power to create the heavens and the earth, but somehow communicating with man is beyond Him. Why would people claiming that we can't know God exist change my view on religion, when I already do know God exists? See, why you are content to say no one can know God, I was not. So I humbled myself before Him in prayer and asked Him to let me know if He was there and to lead me to His truth if He was. And I gained a manifestation that He is there. Since then I've seen the humble seekers of God come to know Him. I've preached by His Spirit. Seen people healed. I've been healed by His power. I've had immediate answers to my prayers. After seeing all this do you honestly expect me or anyone else with similiar experiences to believe as you do that we cannot know God exists, simply because you say it? Simply because you don't know, doesn't mean that others don't either. God lives. I know that for myself.

BTW an Open mind never says that something cannot be known. Because the second one says that is the second one stops learning.

you cant expect me to believe in god simply cus you say you saw him, many folks have said they have seen space aliens some say they have been taken aboard a space ship and shown a manifestation, others have seen the lock ness monster etc do you believe them ?

if he does has all that power and can heel why then do you bother to go to the doctor . he charges god will heel you for nothing .
if he can the power to heel he must be able to do everything a human can do, so next time your car breaks down dont go to the mechanic pray to him he will fix it


we see a lot of things the mind creates
lay of the cool aid

 

[Ropey]

On a lighter note. You've got a fifty-fifty chance. Like a coin. Either is or isn't.

In the three Abraham beliefs, it becomes one in three.

A three sided cube.

Add the plethora of other beliefs, you've got such a better chance to be right. Now statistically....

A fait acompli without even trying.

You could argue for a long time on that one. . .

The faith response comes back a bit tenuous when confronted with the math. (I hope no one bumps in with Quantum Theory)....


Click

 

[Stitchman]

Welcome back. I was reading through the thread and was startled to see I had responded to it already. Then i looked at the dates.

There is only one way to learn about God and that is from God. "If any of you lack wisdom, let Him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given unto him." James 1:5

The only way to know God is the way Peter learned that Jesus is the Christ.

We all have to make one of two choices in life. We can live in ignorance, not knowing whether or not God is real or what He teaches. Or we can search and find out for ourselves.

Thanks for the reply and welcoming back. I actually have prayed asking God for guidance on the matter. But my apprehension for choosing a faith, if anything, is for the sake of God. I don't have a particular affinity to any faith, to choose one seems to be a huge gamble, as I'd be more likely to be wrong than right. I'm terrified of choosing a faith because if I make the wrong choice, I would end up living my life in total disillusionment. And I certainly am searching and trying to find out for myself.

Ropey (sorry, I'm not sure how to quote more than one person in the same post, is that sarcasm about having such a better statistical chance to be right? I'd be pretty interested in hearing whatever quantum theory you're referring to.