why do we spend so much money on education, and have so little results

[Shogun]

In my opinion, the only thing making private schools look rosey now is their exclusivity. Watering down private schools with vouchers would make them no better than public schools in individual student opportunity...

Certainly, people who are more concerned with instilling their personal morals and dogma may not care to look ahead that far...



I'll say it again, we need to focus on rewiring the motivation of kids so that they will be better prepared to understand self-sufficiency based on their own performance. This would prepare them for our capitolist workforce better than letting them remain the rope in a tug of war between privateers and government education.

Pay the kids.

 

[Bern80]

In my opinion, the only thing making private schools look rosey now is their exclusivity. Watering down private schools with vouchers would make them no better than public schools in individual student opportunity...

Certainly, people who are more concerned with instilling their personal morals and dogma may not care to look ahead that far...

I don't know if that's in response to my idea or not, but vouchers and tax credits aren't the same thing. I'm not for vouchers. One problem I alluded to is that if a parent does decide to send their child to a private school, the parent essentially winds up paying twice for that child to go to school. They pay whatever percentage of their property tax goes to public education plus whatever costs to send them to private school. As for the tax they see none of the benefit in their own children which is why I think they should get a tax credit.

I'll say it again, we need to focus on rewiring the motivation of kids so that they will be better prepared to understand self-sufficiency based on their own performance. This would prepare them for our capitolist workforce better than letting them remain the rope in a tug of war between privateers and government education.

Pay the kids.

I'm all for personal accountability and getting people to understand the importance of self improvement. However I'm not sure that's a concept your average 6th grader can grasp. Maybe by high school you might, but I don't think many people become psychologically aware of their role and place in a society until their college years. I would suggest a two front 'attack'. We get into this debate about whos job it is to instill characteristics of responsibility in children, parents or teachers. Why not both? From the time they get up through the school day to when they go to bed it should be drilled into their heads by parents and teachers the importance of working hard to give themselves an advantage for the future.

 

[Shogun]

I think you don't give enough credit to 6th graders. Kids by that age understand money and how we use it to trade for goods. By showing them how their personal effort increases or decreases money in their hands we show them how our society works and how their individual effort effects such. It could be the case that making a child understand their role in society earlier than, as you say college, would allow them better motivation to prepare for it rather than pump them out of HS and watch the drunken ride that is college become degree mills.

I think Jr. High is a great place to start with such a program. Perhaps set at a fraction of the REAL program set up in HS. Still, I think such could go a long way in using positive reinforcement to instill motivation than where we are currently at or pretending that private schools are the panacea of education.

I'm trying to totally circumvent the tug of war between teacher and parent. You can't force parents to be better parents and you can't expect miracles out of teachers. Rather, we focus on the motivation of the kids. By all means, suspend raises for teachers for 5 years and redirect such monies to fund this instead. See which gets a greater increase of graduation: giving money to teachers or kids. Put half of what they earn per semester in savings for after graduation and give them the rest. This college saving program would be forfeited if the student doesn't graduate and will cycle back into the program to ween itself off of moneys redirected from teachers salaries. Prorated value for each class by grade achieved.

i'm telling you.. it would work better than throwing the entire population of publicly educated kids at private schools.

Regarding tax credits... I can see your point. I guess my counter would be that I pay for roads that I will never drive on too but, alas, I can be malleable. While I am not a fan of vouchers I can totally see your logic behind tax credits. But, wouldn't that make the fed require reimbursment for a state/local tax anyway? Wouldn't this diminish tax revenue for all local tax revenue? Perhaps that money could be reclaimed out of fed money sent to the state...

 

[DiogenesDog]

I think we should review why kids are not motivated to excell in education rather than throw it to the wolves of private enterprise. Ill see your UPS/USPS example and raise you with damn near EVERY NURSING HOME IN THE MIDWES. If you want to see the fruits of private enterprise in an industry that isn't profitable, like education isn't, then go take your dear old grandma down to the local private nursing home in the midwest. Really give that free trade capitalism thing a high five when you see her again and she smells like piss and bologna.

Say on shogun!

"Piss and bologna". We just had one of those hedge fund financed hell holes busted near me. The only reason that it got any press is because the St. Petersburg, FL Times, is privately held and is the paper of record for West Central Florida. SPTimes broke the story and the Tampa Tribune, (absentee corporate) had to follow reluctantly. These outrages will go no where until there is a Junk Yard Dog Congress and a nursing home industry with a conscience. K-Street be damned.

I had heard that nursing homes were best operated as faith based businesses. Well, they are. Some board members get together and say, "We BELIEVE that we should double our profits in the next quarter by feeding them cat food." And so it goes.

I AM

 

[Kid Pickle]

I agree on the lack of concerned parents..

this is one more reason why paying the kids will motivate them beyond their parents' efforts. Focus on the kids and let them earn or lose according to their own behaviour. Perhaps johnny would skip the sports if he knew that blowing a test would cost him 50 bucks.

Concerned parents is a big part of the issue. This stems from the fact that education is "provided" for "free" by the government. If you have somebody who is supposed to take care of all the edumacating, then that takes the heat off of the parents. They are free to go to work, watch teevee, and generally live their "grown-up" lives because "Someone else is supposed to be edumacating those kids," and "I don't have time," and "I don't understand what their teaching them, anyway."

The other side of the coin is that schools, even for government entities, are incredibly good at wasting money. It is what they are best at. They percieve needs, go to the school board full of "concerned citizens" (who mainly just like to be on some sort of government board and be friends with the school people) for approval, get some funding (always availiable because it is for the chil'uns), and spend it extravagantly on the newest, coolest stuff that allows the teachers to do the least work, regardless of how effective or maintainable it is.

This is an oversimplification, of course, but it is pretty accurate as far as I have seen.

 

[Psychoblues]

You obviously have no clue as to reality, choose your argument in unintended abstract and titillate yourself with your senseless and shallow observations.

If no one can deliver mail as cheaply and efficiently as the USPS does, then why do FedEx and UPS exist? And why is there a need to have a law which prohibits them from competing with the USPS in regular mail?

Did you even read the link I gave concerning Regan's criticisms of TVA? If so, by all means respond to the specifics. I'm not a Reagan groupie, but I simply agree with this particular speech. That doesn't mean I endorse everything he ever did. Just like I like some of Kucinich's speeches, but don't endorse him wholesale.

Also, when you talk about "embellishing" local economies, you do it at the expense of the rest of the economy, and one the whole, it's less efficient and reduces living standards. For example, the southern states get more back from the government than they put in. It's easy to see the specific benefit that Program (x) brought, but it is not so easy to make a list of the things the private sector could have done if those resources had not been taken away. Rest assured though, they do exist.

The TVA, the USPS and the VA still provide services far cheaper and much more efficiently than you would ever admit. Ever wonder why FedEx has never attempted to compete with the USPS?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

You obviously have no clue as to reality, choose your argument in unintended abstract and titillate yourself with your senseless and shallow observations.

I posted an article which gave some very concrete, specific criticisms of TVA. I'm still waiting for a rebuttal.

Ever wonder why FedEx has never attempted to compete with the USPS?

As I said, it is against the law for FedEx to deliver ordinary mail. They can and do compete quite well in package delivery, which is legal.

The USPS holds a statutory monopoly on non-urgent First Class Mail, outbound U.S. international letters as well the exclusive right to put mail in private mailboxes, as described in the Private Express Statutes.

 

[Psychoblues]

Your article has been substantially dismissed and your opinion is as well as far as I am concerned, bvbm.

I posted an article which gave some very concrete, specific criticisms of TVA. I'm still waiting for a rebuttal.



As I said, it is against the law for FedEx to deliver ordinary mail. They can and do compete quite well in package delivery, which is legal.

Enjoy your 41 cent letters while you can.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

How come we cant throw trouble makers out of the class room so that those that wanna learn can.

Just a thought?

I think you don't give enough credit to 6th graders. Kids by that age understand money and how we use it to trade for goods. By showing them how their personal effort increases or decreases money in their hands we show them how our society works and how their individual effort effects such. It could be the case that making a child understand their role in society earlier than, as you say college, would allow them better motivation to prepare for it rather than pump them out of HS and watch the drunken ride that is college become degree mills.

I think Jr. High is a great place to start with such a program. Perhaps set at a fraction of the REAL program set up in HS. Still, I think such could go a long way in using positive reinforcement to instill motivation than where we are currently at or pretending that private schools are the panacea of education.

I'm trying to totally circumvent the tug of war between teacher and parent. You can't force parents to be better parents and you can't expect miracles out of teachers. Rather, we focus on the motivation of the kids. By all means, suspend raises for teachers for 5 years and redirect such monies to fund this instead. See which gets a greater increase of graduation: giving money to teachers or kids. Put half of what they earn per semester in savings for after graduation and give them the rest. This college saving program would be forfeited if the student doesn't graduate and will cycle back into the program to ween itself off of moneys redirected from teachers salaries. Prorated value for each class by grade achieved.

i'm telling you.. it would work better than throwing the entire population of publicly educated kids at private schools.

Regarding tax credits... I can see your point. I guess my counter would be that I pay for roads that I will never drive on too but, alas, I can be malleable. While I am not a fan of vouchers I can totally see your logic behind tax credits. But, wouldn't that make the fed require reimbursment for a state/local tax anyway? Wouldn't this diminish tax revenue for all local tax revenue? Perhaps that money could be reclaimed out of fed money sent to the state...

 

[glockmail]

....

what would you do to improve education?, ....

1. School vouchers, paid for by the schools the student moved from.
2. Students Bill of Rights.

 

[Psychoblues]

Beats me, martin.

How come we cant throw trouble makers out of the class room so that those that wanna learn can.

Just a thought?

Just who do you think is a trouble maker?

 

[ronpaul2008]

The purpose of state run education systems is simply to condition the populus in such a way that the powers that be can continue to maintain control. In that respects it has been successful.

 

[jillian]

Yeah, that must be it... *rolls eyes*

 

[pegwinn]

why do college, and even some high schools, have such liberal bias?.

Why isnt free speech, and more open debate promoted, and why arent students taught how to critically analyze/think, rather then told what to think.

what would you do to improve education?, what do you like/dislike about education

your thoughts?

Education is a pet peeve going way back. Currently, for every person researching DNA, there is an illiterate redneck. For every potential lawyer there is a football player who cannot read. Kids are passed for social reasons instead of Academic achievement. Federal funds should be tied to results. The testing should be in English only, not Ebonics. Don't use the word omelet in a sentence. As in "omelet you pass now, but don't ax me again". Poor performing schools should be shut down and the non-functional teachers and/or bureaucrats should be scattered to the winds. That way you are not reinforcing failure. You may end up busing kids out of the neighborhood school, but I don't care. Originally posted here.

The thing I don't like about post HS education is that trade schools (good ones) are not given the "due respect" accorded to universities. LEt's face it, a school trained certified welder, chef, carpenter, mechanic, etc is not stupid. But, try to get assitance for those. Last I looked, financial aid for trade school was minimal.

Teachers. I don't think a degree should be required. If I can pass a written test on the subject matter, and discuss it intelligently with a board of other subject matter experts why can't I be a teacher. Speaking for myself, I have experience as an instructor, but without a degree, no chance in the civilian world.

Finally. Parents. A no-nonsense MOM and DAD can help the kid a lot more than post columbine counselings.

The reason is because government runs it, for the most part.

And the part which is "private", is heavily regulated by the state. There is little room for innovation and so forth.

Yup.

Straw Man, bullshit or simple ignorance.




Care to share where you heard that miscalculation or is it just a repetition of something you heard in a subway?

USPS, VA, TVA and many more provide services that no private industry could provide at a fraction of the cost.

Bullshit is bullshit. You speak bullshit.

I've noticed his rebuttal to you. But, how is it that you are not bound to provide proof of your own claim?

I've said it before but it bears repeating. Instead of using new dollars to pay for outdatable computers, teachers salaries when they get M.A.'s and a union membership, high tech facilities we should prepare them for what it is like when they graduate by assimilating them into a system of positive reinforcement for their effort. Pay the kids. None of you would work if you didn't get paid to do so. You don't get off knowing that you are learning something new or getting better at what you know. Same here. This isn't an age where kids want to learn in order to get off the farm and not be a farmer. Nor is it a time where segregation makes an equal opportunity sweet. Nor is it a time where apprenticeships are around to let them know what it's like to have a master. Pay the kids. Not only will they learn to associate self sufficiency with their own effort (which will reduce a sense of entitlement) but it will also allow an opportunity to have funds saved for post-HS life. It can act as a deterrent for dropping out of school. It could pay on a scale according to effort. It's about motivating kids instead of paying a teachers salary. No Child Left Behind doesn't work because kids have a RANGE of abilities and life circumstances. Private Schools will only work for those who can AFFORD to send their kids to better schools while anyone else gets to fuck off. We need, and clearly benefit from, public schools. I think it's just a matter of coming up with new ideas that will motivate the kids to take advantage of the effort to prepare them for life in America.

I think that is a very good idea that can be incorporated into changes.

A few days with no response. I maintain that I am correct and the others are simply detractors and looking for an otherwise unjustified argument.

I just checked in.....

 

[Psychoblues]

OK. You have problems with the USPS, the VA, TVA and others like the Corps of Engineers, Bureau of Land Reclamation and many, many more then spit it out.

I've noticed his rebuttal to you. But, how is it that you are not bound to provide proof of your own claim?

I just checked in.....

Each time bits and parcels of these governmental entities have been "contracted out" the quality of their services has been greatly reduced and the expense of their participation has been tremendously detrimental to the taxpayers of the United States Of America.

I will not do your research for you.

 

[Shogun]

Nursing Homes

 

[pegwinn]

OK. You have problems with the USPS, the VA, TVA and others like the Corps of Engineers, Bureau of Land Reclamation and many, many more then spit it out. Are you talking to me or a different poster? If you are talking to me, then feel free to source your assertion that I "have problems....." to spit out.

Each time bits and parcels of these governmental entities have been "contracted out" the quality of their services has been greatly reduced and the expense of their participation has been tremendously detrimental to the taxpayers of the United States Of America.

I will not do your research for you. No, you need to do your own research and provide proof of your assertions. You see, it's not up to me to disprove you. It's up to you to prove your statement is correct.

Batter Up.

 

[Meemer]

Andy Rooney said it years ago: Listen. There are dumb kids because there are dumb parents.
That's point one. (Do not take it as literally coming from me.)
The idea that everyone is cookiecutter educable is not correct. That's why so many teachers are encouraged to major or minor in special education or special needs kids because that's what the bulk of the public school age kids are. Accept that as a fact.
Point two: Parents are a huge problem. "I don't care what he does as long as he gets good grades." "Colleges demand good grades so he has to have them." "I didn't go to school much when I was his age; he don't have to either."
Grades? A letter on a piece of paper? And that proves what exactly? Education is learning. Learning is not getting a grade. Learning is being able to think and to write comprehensibly and to do basic math and maybe even some advanced math that using thinking skills and to be aware of common cultural world knowledge and of many scientific proofs.
Schools are places where the young go to use their talents, train their brains, hone their skills...all of them.
And I completely agree...Vo-Tech schools get short shrift. Some are excellent.
Finally the paper. The state education departments continually throw paper at the districts. The paper generates money for the district. People are hired by the districts just to handle the paper that comes in, listing the requirements for new and better programs that generate more testing and more money to the districts. Guidelines go to the states from the feds. It's an endless paper chase, all purportedly geared to gain more money to be put into a system that turns out people who can take and pass tests.
Answer to what's the problem? Let teachers teach.

 

[Psychoblues]

You are every bit the coward that I called you out to be.

Batter Up.

I said "spit it out" and you said "batter up" but you never delivered a pitch. Several days to think about it but you can't even think about a bunt?

 

[pegwinn]

You are every bit the coward that I called you out to be. And where did you do that?




I said "spit it out" and you said "batter up" but you never delivered a pitch. Several days to think about it but you can't even think about a bunt?

That would be strike one.

Here is a hint, read the off color comments and respond. I realise that you are not accustomed to actual discussion. This is an opportunity for you to receive some remedial training in communication skills and manners.