Why do the Koch brothers want to end public education?

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Test scores have little to do with the quality of a teacher; teaching to the test isn’t teaching, it’s training.

 

[initforme]

But thats what most people judge teachers by. Test scores. Too bad most people cant see through this. I shall also add that if you are going to judge by the test scores should teachers not have the right to teach to the test? I mean if I am being judged by the number of cars I sell then should I not be trying to sell the most cars? If I am being judged by test scores then should I not be teaching SOLELY to the test? SAME EXACT SCENARIOS.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Define a crappy teacher.

You actually need it defined?....Maybe you need to look back at your own education to figure out why you need it defined.

Your problem is, all you can say is it's the parents fault.......Yep, substandard teachers have nothing to do with it......Crappy teachers protected by unions have nothing to do with it........Nope, it's all on the parents........The falling high school graduation rates are the fault of the parents. Teachers hold no responsibility whatsoever.

So, there's no sense in defining it for you, you'll just shove your fingers in your ears......Even though there is statistical eveidence all over the web that show incomptetent teachers do share a large part of the blame, and it's not all on the parents.

Yes, I want it defined. If we are going to get rid of crappy teachers, it needs to be defined.


Something you just showed you are unable to do. Color me surprised that you rant about something so much....and you CAN'T EVEN DEFINE IT!

If you need it defined, then you are abjectly stupid

But here, just because you need to be educated yet again:

Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way.

 

[BDBoop]

They can have the majority working so cheap they won't have to go offshore to find cheap labor.

Think they'll get away with it? I think they're screwed, thanks to the internet. Their secret games aren't so secret anymore.

They are getting away with it so far, with help from poor and middle class cons.

To my knowledge, it's only been a year or so that the Koches have been on the radar. And they've been at this shit since the 80's.

 

[bodecea]

You actually need it defined?....Maybe you need to look back at your own education to figure out why you need it defined.

Your problem is, all you can say is it's the parents fault.......Yep, substandard teachers have nothing to do with it......Crappy teachers protected by unions have nothing to do with it........Nope, it's all on the parents........The falling high school graduation rates are the fault of the parents. Teachers hold no responsibility whatsoever.

So, there's no sense in defining it for you, you'll just shove your fingers in your ears......Even though there is statistical eveidence all over the web that show incomptetent teachers do share a large part of the blame, and it's not all on the parents.

Yes, I want it defined. If we are going to get rid of crappy teachers, it needs to be defined.


Something you just showed you are unable to do. Color me surprised that you rant about something so much....and you CAN'T EVEN DEFINE IT!

If you need it defined, then you are abjectly stupid

But here, just because you need to be educated yet again:

Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way.

Still not seeing a definition....and yes I DO want it defined. If you want to whine about "crappy teachers", the least you can do is define what a crappy teacher is......something you can't do. How pathetic.....you can't even put your finger on what you want to rant and rave about. It's just a rightwing mantra to you....gods forbid you actually KNOW what you are talking about.


Edited to add....1. Inability to motivate students....you want entertainers not educators. 2. High number of failings....so a teacher with high expectations is a crappy teacher, should just let the little darlings slide no matter how much effort they put out. 3. Lack of knowledge in the subject they teach...agreed on that one...do you know of any math teachers who don't know math, science teachers who don't know science, etc. Point them out for us. 4. Inability to recognize why a student is failing...most teachers I know know damn well why students fail, however they have no power for change. Assign homework, they don't do it...make they stay after, they don't come...have parent conferences, parents don't show or else say they can't control their children either, and so on and so forth. 5. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities....teachers can refer but they cannot force parents to get students tested...nor are they the ones who can make such calls. I know teachers who have been repremanded for suggesting to parents that they have their child tested. Does that make them a good teacher and all teachers who follow school policy the crappy ones?

 

[initforme]

"Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way. "

So the student has no responsiblility at all for failing? And the parents have no responsibility in this either? Wow you are in a dream world. Lala land. If YOUR kid is failing then YOU had better take some action too.

Who is going to judge whether a teacher is bad? An administrator? So now,

the administrator needs to base his opinion on

1) which teachers the parents like
2) which teachers the students like
3) which teachers produce the highest test scores
4) which teachers the administrators like

with the four above a highly effective teacher who demands discipline is OUT THE DOOR because AMERICAN parents want someone to coddle their kids or the teacher is bad. Either way the teacher loses. How do you fix that? I'm all for getting rid of bad teachers but you WANT TO GET RID OF THE GOOD ONES with them.

 

[Flopper]

Public schools are inclusive, bringing together kids of all classes, races, and ethnic backgrounds. Private schools do just the opposite. They are exclusive. They separate the rich from poor, blacks from whites, Jews from gentiles, Christians from Muslims, and the disabled from the mainstream. The last thing this nation needs is more separation and division of it's people.

 

[Flopper]

"Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way. "

So the student has no responsiblility at all for failing? And the parents have no responsibility in this either? Wow you are in a dream world. Lala land. If YOUR kid is failing then YOU had better take some action too.

Who is going to judge whether a teacher is bad? An administrator? So now,

the administrator needs to base his opinion on

1) which teachers the parents like
2) which teachers the students like
3) which teachers produce the highest test scores
4) which teachers the administrators like

with the four above a highly effective teacher who demands discipline is OUT THE DOOR because AMERICAN parents want someone to coddle their kids or the teacher is bad. Either way the teacher loses. How do you fix that? I'm all for getting rid of bad teachers but you WANT TO GET RID OF THE GOOD ONES with them.

You should have stopped after the first paragraph. What's your point?

 

[Salt Jones]

I pay for my grandkids to go to private school. Public schools in Arizona suck. The Kochs want to push their conservative agenda into schools, the same as politicians here in Arizona.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Yes, I want it defined. If we are going to get rid of crappy teachers, it needs to be defined.


Something you just showed you are unable to do. Color me surprised that you rant about something so much....and you CAN'T EVEN DEFINE IT!

If you need it defined, then you are abjectly stupid

But here, just because you need to be educated yet again:

Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way.

Still not seeing a definition....and yes I DO want it defined. If you want to whine about "crappy teachers", the least you can do is define what a crappy teacher is......something you can't do. How pathetic.....you can't even put your finger on what you want to rant and rave about. It's just a rightwing mantra to you....gods forbid you actually KNOW what you are talking about.


Edited to add....1. Inability to motivate students....you want entertainers not educators. 2. High number of failings....so a teacher with high expectations is a crappy teacher, should just let the little darlings slide no matter how much effort they put out. 3. Lack of knowledge in the subject they teach...agreed on that one...do you know of any math teachers who don't know math, science teachers who don't know science, etc. Point them out for us. 4. Inability to recognize why a student is failing...most teachers I know know damn well why students fail, however they have no power for change. Assign homework, they don't do it...make they stay after, they don't come...have parent conferences, parents don't show or else say they can't control their children either, and so on and so forth. 5. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities....teachers can refer but they cannot force parents to get students tested...nor are they the ones who can make such calls. I know teachers who have been repremanded for suggesting to parents that they have their child tested. Does that make them a good teacher and all teachers who follow school policy the crappy ones?

Just fully defined it...You just refuse to accept the fact that there are many crappy teachers out there.

It's just too easy for you to dismiss facts. it's just too easy for you to declare that it's all the parents and students fault, and never admit that there's culpability on many teachers, as well as many students and parents.

You live with liberal blinders on, in which you prove everytime this subject comes up....In your narrow minded liberal world, stating that there are MANY crappy teachers out there, equals an attack on all teachers......And that you cannot deny.

Edited to add regarding:

1) Any teacher worth their salt motivates a student to learn. Your stupid "you want entertainers" just shows how simple minded you truly are.

2) Many teachers with high failure rates, experience those high rates because they are crappy teachers.

3) There are undoubtedly teachers who are not proficient in the subjects they teach. Which is exactl;y why summer breaks should be shortened, and all teachers required to attend classes on the subjects teach, too include real time teaching in front of administrators to ensure they are proficient....One of the main reasons why our kids private school puts out educated kids who are far above their peers in public school.

4) Obvioulsy, many teachers don't recognize why students fail.....And don't give me that shit that they don't have any power to do anything. That's what school administrators are for. That's what CPS is all about when a notified parent does nothing.......Nice try at a cop out.....you failed.

5) See above #4

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You should have stopped after the first paragraph. What's your point?

It would have been better to stop before the first paragraph.

 

[Contumacious]

Public schools are inclusive, bringing together kids of all classes, races, and ethnic backgrounds. Private schools do just the opposite. They are exclusive. They separate the rich from poor, blacks from whites, Jews from gentiles, Christians from Muslims, and the disabled from the mainstream. The last thing this nation needs is more separation and division of it's people.

Doesn't fascism/socialism separate the rich from poor, blacks from whites, Jews from gentiles, Christians from Muslims, and the disabled from the mainstream?

I mean fascism/socialism want to enslave the producers and the taxpayers.

.

 

[bodecea]

"Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way. "

So the student has no responsiblility at all for failing? And the parents have no responsibility in this either? Wow you are in a dream world. Lala land. If YOUR kid is failing then YOU had better take some action too.

Who is going to judge whether a teacher is bad? An administrator? So now,

the administrator needs to base his opinion on

1) which teachers the parents like
2) which teachers the students like
3) which teachers produce the highest test scores
4) which teachers the administrators like

with the four above a highly effective teacher who demands discipline is OUT THE DOOR because AMERICAN parents want someone to coddle their kids or the teacher is bad. Either way the teacher loses. How do you fix that? I'm all for getting rid of bad teachers but you WANT TO GET RID OF THE GOOD ONES with them.

If we measure teachers purely by test scores, who will we get to teach the special ed students? The chronic low achievers? The English Second Language Students? The students in a school (like one we have here) where 80% of the parents are illiterate?

 

[Wicked Jester]

This explains a lot....Of course the lib's who think that there aren not many incompetent teachers out there, and it's always the fault of the students or parents, will pitch their usual whiney liberal hissy fits over it.

When the former president of the American Federation Of Teachers, Al Sahanker admits, " a lot of people who have been hired as teachers are basically not competent", clearly shows there is a problem with incompetency across this nation.

Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts

 

[Steelplate]

Public schools are inclusive, bringing together kids of all classes, races, and ethnic backgrounds. Private schools do just the opposite. They are exclusive. They separate the rich from poor, blacks from whites, Jews from gentiles, Christians from Muslims, and the disabled from the mainstream. The last thing this nation needs is more separation and division of it's people.

Doesn't fascism/socialism separate the rich from poor, blacks from whites, Jews from gentiles, Christians from Muslims, and the disabled from the mainstream?

I mean fascism/socialism want to enslave the producers and the taxpayers.

.

Fascism and Socialism are not NECESSARILY the same thing. They can be... but they aren't the same definition. Capitalism and Fascism can be the same thing too.

Let's examine this for a second.... Which side is actually trying to separate the rich from the poor(as evident of the history of the past 30 years)?, which side separates blacks from whites, Christians from Muslims, Gay from Straight, disabled from the mainstream?

Think before you post. Your side is on the wrong side of history. Truth of the matter is, there is no GOP candidate for President worth their weight in salt other than Ron Paul.

 

[bodecea]

If you need it defined, then you are abjectly stupid

But here, just because you need to be educated yet again:

Inability to motivate students. High number of failings. Can't control the classroom. Lack of knowledge on the subject they teach. Inability to recognize why a student is failing., and correcting it. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities. Etc. etc. etc.

But in your lil' liberal world, this all doesn't take place across the country, when failings across the country are on the rise.....Nope, it's all the parents fault. Those teachers are not culpable for their own failings.

Blame the students, blame the parents, excuse any obvious.......It's easier for you that way.

Still not seeing a definition....and yes I DO want it defined. If you want to whine about "crappy teachers", the least you can do is define what a crappy teacher is......something you can't do. How pathetic.....you can't even put your finger on what you want to rant and rave about. It's just a rightwing mantra to you....gods forbid you actually KNOW what you are talking about.


Edited to add....1. Inability to motivate students....you want entertainers not educators. 2. High number of failings....so a teacher with high expectations is a crappy teacher, should just let the little darlings slide no matter how much effort they put out. 3. Lack of knowledge in the subject they teach...agreed on that one...do you know of any math teachers who don't know math, science teachers who don't know science, etc. Point them out for us. 4. Inability to recognize why a student is failing...most teachers I know know damn well why students fail, however they have no power for change. Assign homework, they don't do it...make they stay after, they don't come...have parent conferences, parents don't show or else say they can't control their children either, and so on and so forth. 5. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities....teachers can refer but they cannot force parents to get students tested...nor are they the ones who can make such calls. I know teachers who have been repremanded for suggesting to parents that they have their child tested. Does that make them a good teacher and all teachers who follow school policy the crappy ones?

Just fully defined it...You just refuse to accept the fact that there are many crappy teachers out there.

It's just too easy for you to dismiss facts. it's just too easy for you to declare that it's all the parents and students fault, and never admit that there's culpability on many teachers, as well as many students and parents.

You live with liberal blinders on, in which you prove everytime this subject comes up....In your narrow minded liberal world, stating that there are MANY crappy teachers out there, equals an attack on all teachers......And that you cannot deny.

Edited to add regarding:

1) Any teacher worth their salt motivates a student to learn. Your stupid "you want entertainers" just shows how simple minded you truly are.

What do you do when kids are motivated by nothing but video games and 'hanging out'? No teacher does boring drill and kill anymore...like they did in those times when everyone says teaching and education was "better".

2) Many teachers with high failure rates, experience those high rates because they are crappy teachers.

No, a truely crappy teacher will find a way to pass everyone...a principled teacher will give students the grades they deserve...and teachers with truely high standards will get failures. Teachers with high demands are loved by parents and students who ALREADY are motivated...they are hated by those parents and students who don't want to be bothered. If they are vocal enough, that's your so-called "crappy" teacher. I have friends in a school near here who saw 8th graders brag one year of "gun-decking" one teacher cause they didn't like her. They all pencil-whipped the state test in her subject cause someone told them they could get her fired by doing that. They had nothing to lose since the test doesn't count towards grades. Is she a crappy teacher?

3) There are undoubtedly teachers who are not proficient in the subjects they teach. Which is exactl;y why summer breaks should be shortened, and all teachers required to attend classes on the subjects teach, too include real time teaching in front of administrators to ensure they are proficient....One of the main reasons why our kids private school puts out educated kids who are far above their peers in public school.

Teachers do that...where have YOU been. As for private schools, wouldn't it be nice if Public schools could pick and chose their clientele too?

4) Obvioulsy, many teachers don't recognize why students fail.....And don't give me that shit that they don't have any power to do anything. That's what school administrators are for. That's what CPS is all about when a notified parent does nothing.......Nice try at a cop out.....you failed.

Oh, they know alright...people like you don't like to here when your kids can't cut it, are lazy (I know TONS of teachers who would LOVE to tell parents the truth) but they have no power...the MAIN reason 50% of teachers leave the field in the first 5 years....and because of people like you who use teachers as scapegoats for your own failings.

5) See above #4

See my answer to #4.

 

[Steelplate]

Amen Bodecea....

That's the problem with Public Education. It's not the teachers as much as it is the kids, who have always tried to get away with doing less(or nothing) and still pass.... and the parents, who are overworked, underpaid, stressed out and don't have the time or energy to kick their kids' asses like my parents did my generation. You see, my parents had good paying jobs, a solid roof over our heads, food in our stomachs and time enough to help us with our homework or to kick our asses when we needed it.

Not to say that there aren't bad teachers out there. There are. But that's not the main problem.

 

[uscitizen]

Think they'll get away with it? I think they're screwed, thanks to the internet. Their secret games aren't so secret anymore.

They are getting away with it so far, with help from poor and middle class cons.

To my knowledge, it's only been a year or so that the Koches have been on the radar. And they've been at this shit since the 80's.

As I have been posting the real power in the USA has finally started coming out of the woodwork. Our transition to the dark side is almost complete.

 

[uscitizen]

Amen Bodecea....

That's the problem with Public Education. It's not the teachers as much as it is the kids, who have always tried to get away with doing less(or nothing) and still pass.... and the parents, who are overworked, underpaid, stressed out and don't have the time or energy to kick their kids' asses like my parents did my generation. You see, my parents had good paying jobs, a solid roof over our heads, food in our stomachs and time enough to help us with our homework or to kick our asses when we needed it.

Not to say that there aren't bad teachers out there. There are. But that's not the main problem.

Our parents focused on what was important in life, not the frivolities.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Still not seeing a definition....and yes I DO want it defined. If you want to whine about "crappy teachers", the least you can do is define what a crappy teacher is......something you can't do. How pathetic.....you can't even put your finger on what you want to rant and rave about. It's just a rightwing mantra to you....gods forbid you actually KNOW what you are talking about.


Edited to add....1. Inability to motivate students....you want entertainers not educators. 2. High number of failings....so a teacher with high expectations is a crappy teacher, should just let the little darlings slide no matter how much effort they put out. 3. Lack of knowledge in the subject they teach...agreed on that one...do you know of any math teachers who don't know math, science teachers who don't know science, etc. Point them out for us. 4. Inability to recognize why a student is failing...most teachers I know know damn well why students fail, however they have no power for change. Assign homework, they don't do it...make they stay after, they don't come...have parent conferences, parents don't show or else say they can't control their children either, and so on and so forth. 5. Inability to recognize students with clinical learning disabilities....teachers can refer but they cannot force parents to get students tested...nor are they the ones who can make such calls. I know teachers who have been repremanded for suggesting to parents that they have their child tested. Does that make them a good teacher and all teachers who follow school policy the crappy ones?

Just fully defined it...You just refuse to accept the fact that there are many crappy teachers out there.

It's just too easy for you to dismiss facts. it's just too easy for you to declare that it's all the parents and students fault, and never admit that there's culpability on many teachers, as well as many students and parents.

You live with liberal blinders on, in which you prove everytime this subject comes up....In your narrow minded liberal world, stating that there are MANY crappy teachers out there, equals an attack on all teachers......And that you cannot deny.

Edited to add regarding:

1) Any teacher worth their salt motivates a student to learn. Your stupid "you want entertainers" just shows how simple minded you truly are.

What do you do when kids are motivated by nothing but video games and 'hanging out'? No teacher does boring drill and kill anymore...like they did in those times when everyone says teaching and education was "better".



No, a truely crappy teacher will find a way to pass everyone...a principled teacher will give students the grades they deserve...and teachers with truely high standards will get failures. Teachers with high demands are loved by parents and students who ALREADY are motivated...they are hated by those parents and students who don't want to be bothered. If they are vocal enough, that's your so-called "crappy" teacher. I have friends in a school near here who saw 8th graders brag one year of "gun-decking" one teacher cause they didn't like her. They all pencil-whipped the state test in her subject cause someone told them they could get her fired by doing that. They had nothing to lose since the test doesn't count towards grades. Is she a crappy teacher?



Teachers do that...where have YOU been. As for private schools, wouldn't it be nice if Public schools could pick and chose their clientele too?

4) Obvioulsy, many teachers don't recognize why students fail.....And don't give me that shit that they don't have any power to do anything. That's what school administrators are for. That's what CPS is all about when a notified parent does nothing.......Nice try at a cop out.....you failed.

Oh, they know alright...people like you don't like to here when your kids can't cut it, are lazy (I know TONS of teachers who would LOVE to tell parents the truth) but they have no power...the MAIN reason 50% of teachers leave the field in the first 5 years....and because of people like you who use teachers as scapegoats for your own failings.

5) See above #4

See my answer to #4.

Your abject refusal to admit that there are many crappy teachers out there, and insist on placing all the blame for this country's public schools failings on students and parents, clearly deems you as part of the problem.

Sad but true....And as long as there are people like you out there who refuse to hold those many crappy teachers accountable, there will never be a solution to the problem.

And yes, they do have power. They have the power to report it to the proper authorities.....Knock it off with the cop out crap.