Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

Dunno about that...mind you she is apparently Gilbert Grape's mother incarnate....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UXcd8i0uLPI/TFKlMnG5QnI/AAAAAAAAAY4/SHCzYq7eapc/s1600/obese+mama.jpg

Tsk tsk, bringing family into the mix IS against the rules...

You brought up children...

..that aside..

I don't give a shit. Gunny only ever instituted that rule (and the one about changing quotes) because of whiney neocons....

At the end of the day this is just a messageboard. You can't handle the heat, fuck off....simple really....

It's a thread about abortion, of course I brought up children.

I did not bring up YOUR children...or mine.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that nuance escapes you.

 

[Dr Grump]

Tsk tsk, bringing family into the mix IS against the rules...

You brought up children...

..that aside..

I don't give a shit. Gunny only ever instituted that rule (and the one about changing quotes) because of whiney neocons....

At the end of the day this is just a messageboard. You can't handle the heat, fuck off....simple really....

It's a thread about abortion, of course I brought up children.

I did not bring up YOUR children...or mine.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that nuance escapes you.

Look, I dunno if you are a real person posting on here or not, or just some schmuck who truly believes what you say. If it is the latter, I totally stand behind what I say..

And no, saying myself and Gadweg are a danger to children - no, no, no, that's not personal at all (sarcasm). Fuck, you truly are dense.....

 

[Dr Grump]

And don't think it has escaped anybody's notice that the two most vile, loathesome men on this forum (aside from Gaybiker) are the holdouts for the right to kill babies.

Grump, the creepiest and most disturbed private-messaging person (again, aside from gaybiker)...with his weird misogynist and foul neg reps...and gadawg, who struts around bragging about what a well versed, well educated, and RESPECTED person he is...while at the same time refusing to apply the most nominal of accepted debate practices to his own retarded musings.

You have no idea how incredibly disgusting it is that two weirdoes like you guys are even participating in this conversation. You're disgusting. And you guys are the types that children need to be protected from...don't think it's not obvious.

I take it this a captulation on your part?

1) I'm anti-abortion but pro choice
2) I only neg rep you when you neg rep me
3) As far as I'm aware I have only ever messaged you in reply to one of yours. I cannot think of an instant where I would waste my time engaging in private messages with a blithering idiot. Showing you up for the shitstain you are on a public messageboard? Sure...
4) Yeah I'm such a misogynist that I hate Jillian, EZ, Luissa, Goldcatt, Valerie, Sarah G, Maggie - oh that's right, I don't. Maybe I just don't like thick-as-pigshit hate mongers.
5) You are a disgrace to the conservative moment.
6) I would not be surprised if your kids get taken away from you at some stage - some people are not fit to be parents.
7) You on the jungle juice tonight? You're being more revolting/depraved/loathesome than usual...

Reported, scum.

Like I said, people who are a threat to children always end up showing their true colors.

Go to town you bat shit loon.....

My true colours? You mean being concerned about the welfare of your kids? Gee, what a bad person am I......

 

[Gadawg73]

Tsk tsk, bringing family into the mix IS against the rules...

You brought up children...

..that aside..

I don't give a shit. Gunny only ever instituted that rule (and the one about changing quotes) because of whiney neocons....

At the end of the day this is just a messageboard. You can't handle the heat, fuck off....simple really....

It's a thread about abortion, of course I brought up children.

I did not bring up YOUR children...or mine.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that nuance escapes you.

She's a gummint employee Doc.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM]‪Citizens Arrest‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

 

[AllieBaba]

Of course it's personal.

You need to read the rules. It's not against the rules to get personal or mention children. It's against the rules to bring up FAMILY.

And people who lobby to kill children are definitely a threat to children. I happen to know from watching what you guys say that you're also women-hating perverts. Why you think you can take a stand for baby-killing, and be taken seriously when you claim to be all about children (and not pro-abortion, lol) is beyond me.

Like I said, read the rules, pro-abortionist, perverted, fuck.

 

[Gadawg73]

Allie is a social worker for family services.
I bet good $$ she has fabricated cases out the wazoo claiming that those she may disagree with are a danger to children.
No telling how many lives she has ruined with her malice and hate.
She is a big government tit sucker.

 

[Dr Grump]

Of course it's personal.

You need to read the rules. It's not against the rules to get personal or mention children. It's against the rules to bring up FAMILY.

And people who lobby to kill children are definitely a threat to children. I happen to know from watching what you guys say that you're also women-hating perverts. Why you think you can take a stand for baby-killing, and be taken seriously when you claim to be all about children (and not pro-abortion, lol) is beyond me.

Like I said, read the rules, pro-abortionist, perverted, fuck.

See the bolded part? That's why you're a batshit loon.

Ok, I'll not mention your children.

You are an unfit mother.....better?

 

[jillian]

Of course it's personal.

You need to read the rules. It's not against the rules to get personal or mention children. It's against the rules to bring up FAMILY.

And people who lobby to kill children are definitely a threat to children. I happen to know from watching what you guys say that you're also women-hating perverts. Why you think you can take a stand for baby-killing, and be taken seriously when you claim to be all about children (and not pro-abortion, lol) is beyond me.

Like I said, read the rules, pro-abortionist, perverted, fuck.

grump? a woman-hating pervert? hon... you know i'm fond of you, but you need to take a step back on this one.

and no one is talking about killing babies, allie. just because you believe something doesn't mean others are like-minded. there are a lot of ways to discuss a complicated issue, but that's not one of them.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's the discussion, Jillian, it's a discussion about abortion which is killing babies.

You can argue that, but it's against the rules to bring FAMILY into the discussion, as you know.

I'm out. I've reported them. If the rules don't count any more, I don't feel safe in this forum.

 

[Dr Grump]

That's the discussion, Jillian, it's a discussion about abortion which is killing babies.

You can argue that, but it's against the rules to bring FAMILY into the discussion, as you know.

I'm out. I've reported them. If the rules don't count any more, I don't feel safe in this forum.

Grow up you fucking moron.

'don't feel safe in this forum'? WTF? You think I'm gonna reach through the screen and throttle you? Are you drinking? Seriously...I mean I know you're a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic but this beggars belief.

Don't let the door hit your fat arse on the way out....

 

[AllieBaba]

When people talk about my kids and my job in a threatening manner, I get nervous. Particularly when they're unhinged haters that I've reported before.

Adios, losers.

 

[Dr Grump]

When people talk about my kids and my job, I get nervous. Particularly when they're unhinged haters that I've reported before.

Adios, losers.

The only one unhinged here is you. Step away from the liquor Babble and go and sleep it off.....

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Self-induced abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are dozens of self induced abortion methods that happen all over the world probably on a daily basis.

I'm certain all those methods would just be done by people here if abortion became illegal, and they probably already happen because girls make a naive decision to do it on their own.

I'm pro-choice just as a full disclosure but I take no issue with people being pro-life, I just don't think laws would do much to stop them here in this country and it would seem to be very very hard to prove.

Our laws make all types of killing hard to prove.

Just ask OJ.

Even with perfect evidence, even with videotaping it happening, you often times couldn't prove it. If a woman fell on her stomach on purpose trying to abort, you'd have to prove she didn't trip on accident. She could even argue she didn't know she was pregnant.

And that'd be an instance of one of those rare 1 in a million instances where you had all the evidence possible.

Since there is a type of buyer’s remorse that follows almost all abortions, I think most abortionists would eventually be turned-in by their very own clients (victims).

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Nobody will ever stop a woman from choosing to have an abortion. Ever. Its HER BODY.

I hate this thread.

You seem rather open minded on other threads, Grace, so I am not sure why you would hate this one.

This is just another issue to debate (like the thousands of others on this board). And, personally, I have found some well-thought-out arguments sprinkled among the clutter on this thread. Indeed, so far, I think this thread is better than most abortion threads.

So, judging by your “her body” comment, please, take the pro-choice position and defend it. I will be an advocate for the other body involved and defend the pro-life side. And, who knows, maybe we can come away with a better understanding of each other and this issue.

I don’t like to think of you as hating anything.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Nobody will ever stop a woman from choosing to have an abortion. Ever. Its HER BODY.

I hate this thread.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the BABY HAS ITS OWN BODY. I hope this thread helps people realize that.

Y'all can scream and wave your tiny fists in fury all you fucking want. Its THE WOMANS BODY. PERIOD. Nothing you say. No pics you show. No scientific evidence. No demands that a coma shaped being to be allowed to be hosted against the hosts will. The religious aspects. The fighting about rights of a sperm that got in the egg. NOTHING you say will EVER change the fact that as women, WE CHOOSE. Period. End of story. So yell, holler, stamp your little feetsies all you want. Won't change a damn thing.

Now I'm out of here because this thread SUCKS.

Denying the scientific evidence may allow you to get away with calling it a “comma shaped thing”, but that does not change the reality of what it really is.

And, since that particular argument boils down to: “it’s okay to kill them because they don’t look like us”, I simply will not buy-into that particular line of thinking.

Also, the problem about the “host” aspect of the relationship can only be taken up with mother nature because the “comma shaped thing” had absolutely no say in the matter.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Nobody will ever stop a woman from choosing to have an abortion. Ever. Its HER BODY.

I hate this thread.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but the BABY HAS ITS OWN BODY. I hope this thread helps people realize that.

That cannot live on it's own until the fetus is at least 22 weeks.

Uh, in reality, it can’t live on it’s own until it grows for about another five or six years. (And, even then, it would be a stretch to claim it could survive on it’s own.)

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Ah, give her a break Doc.
She is making, or attempting to make, her point based on emotion, not fact.
Because she has no facts to work with.

No, we post facts, and stats, and you slimy pro-abortionists ignore them, and pretend your pretend scenarios somehow hold water.

You know, the scenarios where legalized abortion reduces child abuse, and results in fewer abortions, and saves women.

Still waiting for the *facts* and the studies that back up those *scientific* assertions.

Like how God created a monthly action which kills ova?

Most of us don’t want religious-based arguments on this thread so let’s just say that evolution has made sure that there is a new and healthy ova available should one be needed.

 

[Gadawg73]

Where was it that anyone spoke about anyone's family or kids in this thread?
Fact is Allie has been used to bullying her way around in her work, here and everywhere else she goes and if she gets mad in a place where she has no supposed authority she seeks someone to cry on and tattle tails to them.
Worse than a spoiled brat 5 year old.
You are one sick puppy Allie. You are the liar and pure fraud here. You lie to attempt to get your way.
I bet it will not work here like it does in your life.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Where was it that anyone spoke about anyone's family or kids in this thread?
Fact is Allie has been used to bullying her way around in her work, here and everywhere else she goes and if she gets mad in a place where she has no supposed authority she seeks someone to cry on and tattle tails to them.
Worse than a spoiled brat 5 year old.
You are one sick puppy Allie. You are the liar and pure fraud here. You lie to attempt to get your way.
I bet it will not work here like it does in your life.

Sad, I really enjoyed your back and forth with Vanquish about facts and how these sort of things may work out in court based on how other similar issues have worked out in court.


However there's some people who just can't talk about the abortion issue like grown ups, personal attacks by calling people baby killers and then acting like a victim being attacked for no reason when people fire back.

 

[Vanquish]

Of course there are standards in medicine.
But you ignore my factual scenario.
How can a doctor claim there was NO need for the abortion when HE NEVER SAW THE PATIENT?
You have not stated one fact to rebut anything or any factual scenario I presented.
If you do not know that ALL medical malpractice cases have TOTALLY opposite diagnosis of standard of care then you know nothing about medical legal issues.
If you deny that in worker's compensation cases one doctor gets up and testifies "the claimant is fine and can go back to work" and then the next doctor comes in and states "the claimant is 80% disabled and can not work" that proves without any doubt you have never, ever done any trial work in the civil courts.
That sir goes on in EVERY worker's compensation case across the nation daily.
All the while you naively claim that doctors do not doctor their records.
Try again and show me something, anything that shows that doctors do not offer opinions to fit their clients' needs.
Sort of like attorneys but without the doctor's various opionions to fit their client's needs the attorneys have NO case.
I have been doing this 30 years. 5000 cases with over 1000 jury trials.

Stroke your epeen a little more. Something useful might come out.

Of course I know that doctors conflict. I'm the one who explained that in MY POST.

YOU SEEM TO IGNORE the fact that making it illegal means that 99% of doctors will stop doing it. That's pretty effective enforcement right there. And in the cases where you have a doctor claiming that a mother's life is in danger, it's going to be pretty hard medically to cheat the system. You keep making these sweeping comments about medical litigation in general, but fail to speak about SPECIFIC circumstances.

I'm pretty glad that you were never a PI for one of my cases. You can't seem to hold a train of thought very well.

I was questioning whether you were a lawyer or not but your dancing around like a monkey on fire, twisting and distorting the truth have convinced me you are.
I gave you SPECIFICS such as medical malpractice cases where YOU HAVE TO HAVE A DOCTOR'S AFFIDAVIT that there was negligence to even file your case.
Now tell me counselor, are you denying that in a mdeical malpractice case, IN ALL medical malpractice cases you have a doctor stating that the standard of care was not up to speed and that is what caused the malpractice and that the insurance carrier of the doctor will have their doctor come in and state THE EXACT OPPOSITE?
If they didn't then how do THEY DEFEND THE DAMN CASE?
Same with worker's compensation cases. I gave SPECIFICS on that also.
And from the companion case YOU BROUGHT UP Doe which proves my point 100%:
That case broadly defined the health exemption so that any level of distress or discomfort would qualify and gave the abortionist the final say over what qualified:
"The medical judgement may be exercised in the light of all factors-physical, emotional, psychological, familial and the woman's age, relevant to the well being of the patient. All these factors may relate to "health".
Because the application of the health exemption was left to the abortionist, as I have been schooling you on here, any legislation directly prohibitng any abortion is practically UNENFORCEABLE.
And it was prior history of doctors ALWAYS DOING THIS, that prompted the ruling in the first place.
Fairly simple for anyone that is interested IN FACT.

Coming back to this thread this morning as I don't surf USMB at night.

Let me start with this. Pulling the "im the only one interested in facts" bs is ridiculous. I know it happens elsewhere on USMB, but if we're going to have a discussion, that's got to stop. Yes, I made the epeen comment, but you seem to have this recurring need to tell us your credentials. Just say, I've seen my share, and leave it at that. Quoting unverifiable personal statistics over the internet doesnt give you any more credibility than simply stating your profession does.

Now, to the meat...

Yes, doctors disagree in court. I do both plaintiff's work and defense and have hired the same expert to testify to conflicting testimony, had the parties been joined. You're not telling me anything new.

But what you're lacking is a concept of how a trial (bench or jury) works. At the end of the day the plaintiff has to prove their case and if they dont, no judgment. I'll say that again a different way. You're making a BLANKET assertion that these cases would all be unprovable. Each case works on its own facts, procedural posture, and discovery. You can't make a comment like that AT ALL. That's like saying "yeah, police brutality cases are unwinnable since states have sovereign immunity." Sounds good in theory, but yes, they are winnable.

The prosecution/plaintiff makes their case and if they don't reach the burden then they lose. The facts of all these cases are SO different you can't possibly say that as a group they are unprovable.

Doctors go up against each other all the time...and VERDICTS ARE STILL HANDED DOWN. At the end of the day, juries make up their minds based on a whole bunch of other stuff besides just quibbling experts. I'd think with so much trial experience you'd know that. The entire med mal market exists...not because juries hear two experts and won't decide. The market exists because even DESPITE dueling experts....they decide they like one side better than the other!!!

And taking into account the % of abortions that would go down simply because it was made illegal....YES, you can achieve the necessary result. I'm sorry, you don't see it that way, but it's true. (I could type something in here about how you want to avoid facts...but that wouldn't really move the discussion along and is just emotional raving.)