Who is To Blame in the Debt Negotiations?

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I made this post below in another thread and it seemed to be well received. So Im making a thread with it looking for challenges to what I said

If you want to be mad at anyone be mad at the president. The Repubs, Dems, and President all had a deal set a week ago, then obama added another almost 50% on the revenue side AFTER they had an agreement which made the agreement fall apart.

Or blame the senate for striking down both the ryan bill and the cut, cap, and balance bills......both of which the republicans put forth.


What proposal, with actual numbers, has the president supplied?
What bill did the minority dems try to work on with the republicans in the house?
What specific plan did the democrat senate try to put forward?


Both sides share blame in getting us here but it seems only one side has done more about it than just talk, and that side is the republican side.

 

[saveliberty]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

Do you actaully believe what you've posted? If so you need a reality check or phsychiatric intervention.

Obama campigned on hope and change, ending a period of fear mongering by the previous administration. Then reality smacked him in the face. Our economy crashed, not because he did anything, but because of a series of mistakes made by the Bush Administration.

The New Right doesn't have a plan, the NR has goals which is far different than having a vision. The radical Republicans (RR) want to regain the White House, that and increasing their numbers in the Congress is goal number one. Goal two also has two components - cut taxes and cut regulations; goal three is to privatize social security and medicare.

Goals are not visions, visions require considering the process (the means) and the ends, both intended and otherwise. Critical thinking is employed and input from supporters and detractors need to be considered before a mission is created. Even then events change and require modifications; adjustments made in timelines, personnel and other resources evaluated on a cost-benefit basis and changed when necessary.

The NR has done none of this, they have relied on emotion to motivate them as well as personal ambition - a role played by demagogues since the dawn of civilizaiton.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

Obama is a very intelligent and astute man. I believe he could negotiate IF HE WANTED TO. However, his adding in the increase in revenue to a deal that was agreed upon and sabotaging the deal in the process shows me he doesn't want to.

I mean yes the repubs are petty for backing out over the increase (in my opinion) but Obama is even worse for messing with the agreement that both sides were behind.

 

[saveliberty]

I figured reality was going to hit you pretty hard Wry. Maybe if you run out and make a couple of $1,000 donations to ACORN, ACLU and GLAD you'll feel better. Put them on your credit card.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

Do you actaully believe what you've posted? If so you need a reality check or phsychiatric intervention.

Obama campigned on hope and change, ending a period of fear mongering by the previous administration. Then reality smacked him in the face. Our economy crashed, not because he did anything, but because of a series of mistakes made by the Bush Administration.

The New Right doesn't have a plan, the NR has goals which is far different than having a vision. The radical Republicans (RR) want to regain the White House, that and increasing their numbers in the Congress is goal number one. Goal two also has two components - cut taxes and cut regulations; goal three is to privatize social security and medicare.

Goals are not visions, visions require considering the process (the means) and the ends, both intended and otherwise. Critical thinking is employed and input from supporters and detractors need to be considered before a mission is created. Even then events change and require modifications; adjustments made in timelines, personnel and other resources evaluated on a cost-benefit basis and changed when necessary.

The NR has done none of this, they have relied on emotion to motivate them as well as personal ambition - a role played by demagogues since the dawn of civilizaiton.

what?

The Ryan Plan
Cut, Cap, and Balance

There are 2 plans RIGHT THERE that they passed out of the house! These plans show the repubs are true to their words of at least attempting to be the party that will get the debt and defecit spending under control (and yes we all know how much debt repub and dem presidents have added to the national debt which doesn't disqualify any current reps or dems from trying to change it)

 

[Jarhead]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

Do you actaully believe what you've posted? If so you need a reality check or phsychiatric intervention.

Obama campigned on hope and change, ending a period of fear mongering by the previous administration. Then reality smacked him in the face. Our economy crashed, not because he did anything, but because of a series of mistakes made by the Bush Administration.

The New Right doesn't have a plan, the NR has goals which is far different than having a vision. The radical Republicans (RR) want to regain the White House, that and increasing their numbers in the Congress is goal number one. Goal two also has two components - cut taxes and cut regulations; goal three is to privatize social security and medicare.

Goals are not visions, visions require considering the process (the means) and the ends, both intended and otherwise. Critical thinking is employed and input from supporters and detractors need to be considered before a mission is created. Even then events change and require modifications; adjustments made in timelines, personnel and other resources evaluated on a cost-benefit basis and changed when necessary.

The NR has done none of this, they have relied on emotion to motivate them as well as personal ambition - a role played by demagogues since the dawn of civilizaiton.

I believe you may be jaded by your ideology.
Whether you agree with the two plans presented by the GOP (soon to be 3) or not, they are concrete plans.
We have yet to see a plan presented by the President....and it does not take a genius to undersatnd why....afterall...look what happened to Ryan. His future as a politician has been compromised by all of the negative political rhetoric he recieved for his plan. Obama has very poor ratings right now and there is no doubt that he will be the victim of "bashing" if he presents a plan. I do not condone such behavior...but it is reality.
But on that note, Obama has opted to put his political career ahead of the need of the country right now...and that is why I do not see him as a true leader....but then again, I doubt any GOP President would have done differently.

 

[Si modo]

Just as it takes two to tango, it takes two to play brinkmanship. Both are to blame for it. That doesn't mean I don't think one side is more right, though.

 

[saveliberty]

I think you meant to say debt ceiling negoiations by the way. Democrats don't seem ready to enter a debt negoiation.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Just as it takes two to tango, it takes two to play brinkmanship. Both are to blame for it. That doesn't mean I don't think one side is more right, though.

It sure does.

I just wish that the dems would have started dancing over a month ago too! (Putting forth plans like the ryan or cut/cap/balance)

Then at least we could compare

 

[Truthmatters]

Have you seen what the last debt ceiling bill looked like?

Tell us how many times in history people have attached crap to the DC bills?

 

[Full-Auto]

Just as it takes two to tango, it takes two to play brinkmanship. Both are to blame for it. That doesn't mean I don't think one side is more right, though.

It sure does.

I just wish that the dems would have started dancing over a month ago too! (Putting forth plans like the ryan or cut/cap/balance)

Then at least we could compare

I would argue those plans have gone out. Increase our debt through Obumble care and pay off cronies for the last election. With the finale of shutting down business, just the evil ones.
Oh dont forget those evil contractors with 5 employees.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Obama simply doesn't have negoiation skills. Take a look back to Obamacare. He wanted to negoiate then too. It was come to the table and then a predictable pattern of a concilliatory statement followed by attacking and withdrawal. He only did this when he was in a position of weakness.

Negoiation seems to mean, caving to his position. Any negoiation should grow out of a plan, which Obama also doesn't have. When has he? It is all campaign style speeches. Predictablly, he appeals to the American people, who he quickly labels as uninformed of the issues.

Do you actaully believe what you've posted? If so you need a reality check or phsychiatric intervention.

Obama campigned on hope and change, ending a period of fear mongering by the previous administration. Then reality smacked him in the face. Our economy crashed, not because he did anything, but because of a series of mistakes made by the Bush Administration.

The New Right doesn't have a plan, the NR has goals which is far different than having a vision. The radical Republicans (RR) want to regain the White House, that and increasing their numbers in the Congress is goal number one. Goal two also has two components - cut taxes and cut regulations; goal three is to privatize social security and medicare.

Goals are not visions, visions require considering the process (the means) and the ends, both intended and otherwise. Critical thinking is employed and input from supporters and detractors need to be considered before a mission is created. Even then events change and require modifications; adjustments made in timelines, personnel and other resources evaluated on a cost-benefit basis and changed when necessary.

The NR has done none of this, they have relied on emotion to motivate them as well as personal ambition - a role played by demagogues since the dawn of civilizaiton.

Wrong!! Keep blaming Bush idiot. Obama has more to blame for the economic crash. Hope and change has proven to be a big lie. Obamaturd and the dimwits are to blame period!

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Have you seen what the last debt ceiling bill looked like?

Tell us how many times in history people have attached crap to the DC bills?

Yes It capped our spending to its current levels so it couldn't be increased further in the future, it started making cuts to spending, and it made it so you must have a balanced budget in the future!

A long history of NOT requiring things like spending cuts and budget balancing with debt ceiling increases are what have led us to the issue we face today.


Im not sure exactly many times other debt ceiling increases have had things attached to them but I know under reagan they did attach similar cuts to spending with the 18 bi and tri-annual increases in the debt ceiling under his Presidency. Since you brought it up can you provide me with the number?

 

[Truthmatters]

Why does the debt bill have to have ANYTHING else in it but the debt ceiling?

 

[Truthmatters]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=hj110-43



Sep 28, 2007 - Enrolled Bill. This is the final text of the bill or resolution as approved by both the Senate and House. This is the latest version of the bill currently available on GovTrack.









H.J.Res.43




One Hundred Tenth Congress




of the




United States of America




Begun and held at the City of Washington on Thursday,




the fourth day of January, two thousand and seven




Joint Resolution




Increasing the statutory limit on the public debt.




Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $9,815,000,000,000.




Speaker of the House of Representatives.




Vice President of the United States and




President of the Senate.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Just as it takes two to tango, it takes two to play brinkmanship. Both are to blame for it. That doesn't mean I don't think one side is more right, though.

I agree with the sentiment, but the conclusion is off base. Obama blinked. He offered up cuts; Boehner did too - it is the radical Republicans who are engaging in my way or the highway.

As to Jarheads allegation, a budget is a plan. What the radical Republicans are offering is not a plan, it is an assertion of ideology, a line in the sand and has zero possibility of passing the Senate and being signed by the POTUS. It is a waste of time and it is distrubing that so many Republicans (admitted or not) don't know its details or the consequences and support it. It is politics as its worst.

As to my ideology, let me frame it in this manner: I oppose public officials who are motivate by personal ambition and avarice, engage in bigotry, have a callous disregard for others and demagogue issues.

 

[Truthmatters]

Thats it , that was the ENTIRE bill.


That is all the Republicans have to do to fix this right NOW

 

[Full-Auto]

Why does the debt bill have to have ANYTHING else in it but the debt ceiling?

Because democrats have never kept their word in spending reductions.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Why does the debt bill have to have ANYTHING else in it but the debt ceiling?

1) you never answered my question

2) How do we get debt? From spending and bad budgets. What did the cut cap and balance bill do? It tries to control spending and bad budgets. The things in the bill are directly related to the debt ceiling

here, it sounds like you haven't read what the proposal was yet

The Cut, Cap, and Balance Act of 2011
CUT

Cuts total spending by $111 billion in FY 2012. The savings is divided as follows:
•Reduce non-security discretionary spending below 2008 levels, which saves $76 billion.
•$35 billion cut to non-veterans, non-Medicare, non-Social Security mandatory spending.
•Defense budget at President's level.

CAP

Total federal spending is scaled back based on the glide path for the fiscal years below:
•2012, 22.5% of GDP.
•2013, 21.7% of GDP.
•2014, 20.8% of GDP.
•2015, 20.2% of GDP.
•2016, 20.2% of GDP.
•2017, 20.0% of GDP.
•2018, 19.7% of GDP.
•2019, 19.9% of GDP.
•2020, 19.9% of GDP.
•2021, 19.9% of GDP.

BALANCE

Requires the passage of a Balanced Budget Amendment before raising the nation's debt limit.

DEBT CEILING INCREASE CONTINGENT ON BBA

Provides for the President's request for a debt ceiling increase if a qualifying Balanced Budget Amendment passes Congress and is sent to the states for ratification.