Who deserves the most credit fro Christianity?

[Meriweather]

Jesus didn't write the gospels. Everything he taught was Judaism. To Jews. Some of whom then started a non-Judaism religion.

Correct. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus' death and resurrection. At the time Christ lived Annas and Caiaphas (the High Priests) were probably among the most corrupt Jews that ever lived. Jesus scathing denouncement of Scribes and Pharisees were undoubtedly directed by these two and their followers, those who supported them in their positions of power. Years later, despite the goodness of most Pharisees (Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathaea) Jesus is seen as not boldly (even foolishly speaking out against current leadership and politics), he is seen as denouncing faithful Jews.

These corrupt leaders were insisting that the poor, barely able to sustain themselves, continue to contribute to the Temple and to Rome (or be considered little better than lepers). Jesus was incensed to see the rich contributing their surplus riches while faithful widows were contributing pennies they could ill afford. Yet the rich did nothing to relieve the burden. Couldn't afford the meat or even grain offering needed for forgiveness of sins? Not the problem of the rich. Their sins, of course, were forgiven.

So, along comes Jesus assuring the poverty stricken: "Your sins ARE forgiven." (Any wonder why the Temple authorities wanted to discredit/remove Jesus? Someone convincing people they didn't need to make any offerings to the Temple in order for their sins to be forgiven was endangering the income (not to mention the power) of the wealthy?

Jesus insisted he came for the forgotten and lost of the House of Israel. The poverty stricken, under the rule of Annas and Caiaphas and Rome were certainly lost and forgotten by them--but not by Jesus. Jesus should be one of the great Jewish heroes. Unfortunately, when the powerful tried to squelch Jesus and Christianity, by the time Christianity gained strength, it had turned into all Jews against all Christians. That, while perhaps understandable, should still be humiliating to all. Too much was forgotten--but remnants of these facts and truths can still be found in the Gospels.

 

[BluePhantom]

Just as a quick follow up, I suppose if you want to use scripture to determine who the first Christians were you could refer to Acts 11 "and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." (Acts 11:26, NIV)

Acts 11 NIV - Peter Explains His Actions - The - Bible Gateway

So at least according to Acts, there you go....for whatever that is worth.

 

[HaShev]

But acts also says Saul came acroos Sergius Paulus (called Paul) who had a maggi friend calked Bar(son)Jesus with him that Saul called The son of the devil. Saul was not Paul, he was converged into the new character Paul as the others including Jesus was converged into a new image and name.

 

[amrchaos]

Would think the obvious, Jesus. But Jesus didn't write anything. Or at least, nothing we know of (having gone to school as a child presumedly he would have written things.) Plus, because Jesus was Jewish and a rabbi (teacher,) and Christianity as defined by the existence of a Bible didn't exist until decades and centuries after his death, who deserves the credit for creating Christianity?

Perhaps Jesus was illiterate?

Nah, why would a religion spring into being because of an illiterate guy...? (wink wink)

Also, was it not claimed that Jesus taught in the temple at a young age?

This accounting would not only suggest that Jesus was literate, but even advanced in theology and philosophy.

It is strange that he does not leave a written account. Even stranger that he leaves his message in the hands of questionable individuals.

It is as if he wanted his message, his ideas and philosophy, corrupted.

Of course, this is an opinion involving lots of conjecture. Please do not ask me to defend a weak argument!

Considering he began his mortal ministry by reading from a passage in Isaiah, it's fairly safe to say He is literate.

As for why He entrusted His message to the men He did, it's traveled throughout the world for the last 2000 years. Seems to me He made a good choice.

But that is only if the message these men spread were correct.

Hence, the integrity of these men becomes vital to the how much one can trust the message they speak.

 

[BluePhantom]

Would think the obvious, Jesus. But Jesus didn't write anything. Or at least, nothing we know of (having gone to school as a child presumedly he would have written things.) Plus, because Jesus was Jewish and a rabbi (teacher,) and Christianity as defined by the existence of a Bible didn't exist until decades and centuries after his death, who deserves the credit for creating Christianity?

Perhaps Jesus was illiterate?

Nah, why would a religion spring into being because of an illiterate guy...? (wink wink)

Also, was it not claimed that Jesus taught in the temple at a young age?

This accounting would not only suggest that Jesus was literate, but even advanced in theology and philosophy.

It is strange that he does not leave a written account. Even stranger that he leaves his message in the hands of questionable individuals.

It is as if he wanted his message, his ideas and philosophy, corrupted.

Of course, this is an opinion involving lots of conjecture. Please do not ask me to defend a weak argument!

Considering he began his mortal ministry by reading from a passage in Isaiah, it's fairly safe to say He is literate.

As for why He entrusted His message to the men He did, it's traveled throughout the world for the last 2000 years. Seems to me He made a good choice.

But that is only if the message these men spread were correct.

Hence, the integrity of these men becomes vital to the how much one can trust the message they speak.

Well when you consider that the one who bears the most responsibility for spreading it was Paul, who Jesus never met, that theory kind of falls apart.

 

[Esmeralda]

Who deserves the most credit fro Christianity?

Just taking a wild guess here: Christ?

It's like asking who is most responsible for a great novel--the publisher, the editor, the promotions company? No. The person most responsible for a great novel is the man or woman who wrote it. Duh.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Well when you consider that the one who bears the most responsibility for spreading it was Paul, who Jesus never met, that theory kind of falls apart.

A person who persecuted Jesus' followers suddenly becomes the most fervent follower, himself.

The classic interpretation is that Paul had his epiphany on the road to Damascus. Mine is that he really never changed his stripes, but merely saw an opportunity to co-opt the movement instead of eliminating it.

 

[BluePhantom]

Who deserves the most credit fro Christianity?

Just taking a wild guess here: Christ?

It's like asking who is most responsible for a great novel--the publisher, the editor, the promotions company? No. The person most responsible for a great novel is the man or woman who wrote it. Duh.

Depends on how you look at it and what question you ask. If you are asking "who bears the most responsibility for writing a great book?" it would be the author and the editor. If you ask "who bears the most responsibility for the book's commercial success?" It would be the marketers. In the same way, Jesus preached a message, but Paul edited and marketed the message. Without Paul, Christianity probably never exists beyond the 1st Century CE and if it does it would only be as a fringe sect of Judaism

 

[BluePhantom]

Well when you consider that the one who bears the most responsibility for spreading it was Paul, who Jesus never met, that theory kind of falls apart.

A person who persecuted Jesus' followers suddenly becomes the most fervent follower, himself.

The classic interpretation is that Paul had his epiphany on the road to Damascus. Mine is that he really never changed his stripes, but merely saw an opportunity to co-opt the movement instead of eliminating it.

There is an argument to be made for that....that Paul was simply an opportunist who saw the chance to cash in. It's possible. His accounts in Galatians and such about how he started his ministry could be interpreted that way if one wishes to. At one point I saw Paul in a similar way. I saw him as a fool who screwed it up. I have softened my stance on him over time. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he was a believer and was preaching what he believed to be true. I still think there are some things he screwed up (or at least got screwed up in a manner for which he was at least partially to blame), but I don't think he did so maliciously.

I think in a large way receiving and interpreting scripture depends on your state of mind when you go into it. If you are looking for things that are problematic that's what you will receive. If you are looking for things that are empowering and joyful, you will receive that as well.

 

[Penelope]

Eusebius in the Prep and Proof of the Gospel.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Would think the obvious, Jesus. But Jesus didn't write anything. Or at least, nothing we know of (having gone to school as a child presumedly he would have written things.) Plus, because Jesus was Jewish and a rabbi (teacher,) and Christianity as defined by the existence of a Bible didn't exist until decades and centuries after his death, who deserves the credit for creating Christianity?

"Paul equally attested to knowing nothing about Jesus' birth, ministry and healings, which was alarming, as the origins of Christianity itself derive from Paul, and not Jesus. Paul doesn't even quote anything that Jesus is alleged to have said, nor did any of Jesus' original twelve disciples write of his teaching."
The Pagan Origins of Jesus Christ and Christianity

And from the "So Weird it Might be True" files,
Bible scholar claims Christianity invented as part of ancient Roman psy-ops campaign

"The Christian faith is the result of the most successful psy-ops program in history, according to a self-professed American Bible scholar.

Joseph Atwill will present his controversial theory Oct. 19 in London that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats as part of a sophisticated government project to help pacify Jews in occupied territories.

Atwill, author of “Caesar’s Messiah,” claims he’s found ancient confessions by the scriptures’ authors that they invented Jesus Christ and his story as basically a form of propaganda."

 

[HaShev]

Ummmm Just so you know I am not Atwill, he either came to the same conclusions on his own or he literally plagiarised my pre-existing book or commentaries which if you read my posts say the same thing. I just detail more as to why Rome did this and where we were warned they were doing it.

 

[BluePhantom]

Would think the obvious, Jesus. But Jesus didn't write anything. Or at least, nothing we know of (having gone to school as a child presumedly he would have written things.) Plus, because Jesus was Jewish and a rabbi (teacher,) and Christianity as defined by the existence of a Bible didn't exist until decades and centuries after his death, who deserves the credit for creating Christianity?

"Paul equally attested to knowing nothing about Jesus' birth, ministry and healings, which was alarming, as the origins of Christianity itself derive from Paul, and not Jesus. Paul doesn't even quote anything that Jesus is alleged to have said, nor did any of Jesus' original twelve disciples write of his teaching."
The Pagan Origins of Jesus Christ and Christianity

And from the "So Weird it Might be True" files,
Bible scholar claims Christianity invented as part of ancient Roman psy-ops campaign

"The Christian faith is the result of the most successful psy-ops program in history, according to a self-professed American Bible scholar.

Joseph Atwill will present his controversial theory Oct. 19 in London that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats as part of a sophisticated government project to help pacify Jews in occupied territories.

Atwill, author of “Caesar’s Messiah,” claims he’s found ancient confessions by the scriptures’ authors that they invented Jesus Christ and his story as basically a form of propaganda."

Well I can see one problem right off the top of my head. The article states: "He says that Jesus was not based on an actual historical figure, but Atwill argues that the events of his life were overlaid on top of actual events from the First Jewish-Roman War, waged by Emperor Titus Flavius in Palestinian territories."

So Christianity was invented by during, or shortly after, the reign of Titus who reigned from 69-71 CE, the war didn't end until 73 CE, and Nero was persecuting Christians by 64 CE. So according to this Nero was slaughtering Christians before Christianity was invented. Brilliant.