Who are the job creators?

[flacaltenn]

Intense::

Pretty sound reasoning. Still, even Manufacturer's have to deal with the cost and availability of Raw Materials, and or Vendors. It takes Vision and hard work.
Again, there is nothing available at the Market Place that Someone or some group, did not take a chance on in getting it there. RDD is confusing the role of the Provider with that of the Consumer. True there are two sides to the Equation, and that is where fair compensation is determined, but who is the consumer to Screw the Provider out of Fair Compensation through Dictate?

Yeah -- I read a lot of thread and many posters were making the excellent point that DEMAND is dictated by dynamic introduction of NEW products and services -- not just the same ole stuff. The provider needs to constantly refine and introduce new stuff. What would Christmas shopping look like if the toy Dept carried only last years' stuff? Probably sales would off by double digits.

The danger we face in THIS country is --- we can't survive and maintain standards of living for either the TOP or the BOTTOM if we abdicate our role as the inventors and creators. If the stuff we desire (want or need) is defined by OTHER countries -- we become market slaves. And we are about to see how that happens -- if we don't find leadership to return to a biz friendly environment and cut out this destructive class warfare.

 

[flacaltenn]

Supply vs. demand.

If the supply side can create all the product that they want free of taxes and regulations it won't matter if there is no demand. If the middle class have no disposable income, the demand slows down.

Now if the middle class are flourishing and have money to spend, the demand becomes obvious and business and in turn jobs will be created to meet that demand.

The real "job creators" are not the rich, but the people who purchase the products. If they have no money, they make no purchases.

So yes, we should be catering to the job creators. It's just a matter of deciding who truly are the job creators that is the question.

Couple of things to consider.. You are correct if we lived in pre-1990 America. We don't. In fact the economic textbooks are just now catching up to the changes. Not surprising that this debate about "stimulating consumption" is so distorted -- because MOST of us were educated before 1990..

The shift to a Service sector economy changed all this.. You can no longer stimulate the economy from the bottom up and expect the same results. This happens because of the massive diff between Service jobs and Manufacturing jobs.

1) Service sectors industries are much more capital intensive and less labor dense. You only have to compare the employee parking spaces outside a Macy's store to a major manufacturing plant.

2) To double a manufacturing plant -- you just build a 2nd plant. To double a retail franchise business -- you might have to add 100 new stores in 100 different places with the commitant waste of land, resources and overhead. Extremely inefficient compared to serving the entire world from one location like a manufacturer can.

3) This alone accounts for a large chunk of corporate cash that is accumulated during a recession. Because banks, retailers, real estate companies, food services can cut LARGE amounts of spending just by shrinking their service areas. A manufacturer can't contract that easily to save money. If you have one plant, it's hard to wall off 1/2 of it.

4) Number 4 comes from #3. When Service companies contract during a recession, labor does not rebound as quickly. Because if you closed the 4th Peoria McDonalds -- it's gonna be a long time in a healthy economy -- when that restaurant comes back.. No amount of "bottom-up" stimulus is gonna hasten that decision...


So when you seed the economy TODAY with "stimulus" at the consumer level -- all you are doing is cranking up off-shore manufacturing plants and increasing the number of cargo ships coming from China. Furthermore, the amount of labor that needs to added at the retail sales level to handle the increased consumption is NOWHERE NEAR as large as it would have been to actually produce the goods.

Sure a chiropractor in the service industry MIGHT see an increase in business. But they serve a limited local market. And the results are spotty. Same with roofers, plumbers, and other Service industry participants.

We NEED to dust ourselves off, get back on the Manufacturing horse and find and build and invent NEW Industries that will invent and build stuff to serve the world from America. If we DON'T do that -- all we are doing is rearranging furniture on a sinking Titanic.

And THAT means capital moving from the top to start new ventures. Not "trickle-up" at a reduced rate of return. This is NOT the Great Depression. Obama is not the 2nd FDR. And the rules have changed..

I don't have much quarrel with your take here and you make some excellent points. I don't, however, believe that the basics of economics have changed. The principle that any business has to have a net profit over expenses or it won't operate for long has not changed.

The only things that have really changed are the kinds of businesses that are more likely to make a net profit these days versus those of twenty, thirty, fifty, seventy years ago coupled with how much more difficult our government has made it to make a profit and/or anticipate a reasonable profit these days.

What has not changed is that demand may often dictate what kinds of businesses will be developed, and woe be to the business that does not anticipate and adjust to changing demand, but unless there is a profit to be made, no amount of demand will create a single job.

From a business persons' point of view -- you're correct that you don't care as long as you don't violate basic economic principles. Making a margin of profit whereever you might find one. But by pretending that we can exist in the MACRO WORLD economy by "servicing each other" (actually sounds pleasurable don't it?) is national suicide. The emphasis on science, engineering, technology goes down -- and like I said above -- your use of capital becomes more inefficient than your manufacturing counterparts.

You can eek a profit by being the 4th chiropractor or 12th lawyer in town of 50,000. But your ability to leverage or affect the world from your office desk is nil.. The countries that will GROW and PROSPER -- are the countries that DON'T treat manufacturers and corporations like an unwanted blight on society...

 

[Foxfyre]

Couple of things to consider.. You are correct if we lived in pre-1990 America. We don't. In fact the economic textbooks are just now catching up to the changes. Not surprising that this debate about "stimulating consumption" is so distorted -- because MOST of us were educated before 1990..

The shift to a Service sector economy changed all this.. You can no longer stimulate the economy from the bottom up and expect the same results. This happens because of the massive diff between Service jobs and Manufacturing jobs.

1) Service sectors industries are much more capital intensive and less labor dense. You only have to compare the employee parking spaces outside a Macy's store to a major manufacturing plant.

2) To double a manufacturing plant -- you just build a 2nd plant. To double a retail franchise business -- you might have to add 100 new stores in 100 different places with the commitant waste of land, resources and overhead. Extremely inefficient compared to serving the entire world from one location like a manufacturer can.

3) This alone accounts for a large chunk of corporate cash that is accumulated during a recession. Because banks, retailers, real estate companies, food services can cut LARGE amounts of spending just by shrinking their service areas. A manufacturer can't contract that easily to save money. If you have one plant, it's hard to wall off 1/2 of it.

4) Number 4 comes from #3. When Service companies contract during a recession, labor does not rebound as quickly. Because if you closed the 4th Peoria McDonalds -- it's gonna be a long time in a healthy economy -- when that restaurant comes back.. No amount of "bottom-up" stimulus is gonna hasten that decision...


So when you seed the economy TODAY with "stimulus" at the consumer level -- all you are doing is cranking up off-shore manufacturing plants and increasing the number of cargo ships coming from China. Furthermore, the amount of labor that needs to added at the retail sales level to handle the increased consumption is NOWHERE NEAR as large as it would have been to actually produce the goods.

Sure a chiropractor in the service industry MIGHT see an increase in business. But they serve a limited local market. And the results are spotty. Same with roofers, plumbers, and other Service industry participants.

We NEED to dust ourselves off, get back on the Manufacturing horse and find and build and invent NEW Industries that will invent and build stuff to serve the world from America. If we DON'T do that -- all we are doing is rearranging furniture on a sinking Titanic.

And THAT means capital moving from the top to start new ventures. Not "trickle-up" at a reduced rate of return. This is NOT the Great Depression. Obama is not the 2nd FDR. And the rules have changed..

I don't have much quarrel with your take here and you make some excellent points. I don't, however, believe that the basics of economics have changed. The principle that any business has to have a net profit over expenses or it won't operate for long has not changed.

The only things that have really changed are the kinds of businesses that are more likely to make a net profit these days versus those of twenty, thirty, fifty, seventy years ago coupled with how much more difficult our government has made it to make a profit and/or anticipate a reasonable profit these days.

What has not changed is that demand may often dictate what kinds of businesses will be developed, and woe be to the business that does not anticipate and adjust to changing demand, but unless there is a profit to be made, no amount of demand will create a single job.

From a business persons' point of view -- you're correct that you don't care as long as you don't violate basic economic principles. Making a margin of profit whereever you might find one. But by pretending that we can exist in the MACRO WORLD economy by "servicing each other" (actually sounds pleasurable don't it?) is national suicide. The emphasis on science, engineering, technology goes down -- and like I said above -- your use of capital becomes more inefficient than your manufacturing counterparts.

You can eek a profit by being the 4th chiropractor or 12th lawyer in town of 50,000. But you're ability to leverage or affect the world from your office desk is nil.. The countries that will GROW and PROSPER -- are the countries that DON'T treat manufacturers and corporations like an unwanted blight on society...

Okay we're arguing apples and apples here. I am saying that the way to create jobs is to create a business friendly environment for our own commerce and industry so that we can make decent profits here again and won't be tempted to outsource elsewhere.

Isn't that what you are saying?

 

[flacaltenn]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

 

[FactFinder]

Who are the job creators?

Certainly not those sitting on their arses or their cash

 

[Foxfyre]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America loose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

 

[FactFinder]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America lose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

Sure...they were all "Let me oppress as many as possible and stack away my fortune and f'n don't get in my way!"

 

[Foxfyre]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America lose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

Sure...they were all "Let me oppress as many as possible and stack away my fortune and f'n don't get in my way!"

That's what you think they taught? You don't read much do you. A pity.

 

[FactFinder]

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America lose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

Sure...they were all "Let me oppress as many as possible and stack away my fortune and f'n don't get in my way!"

That's what you think they taught? You don't read much do you. A pity.

Just the real world, not the hypothetical one.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sure...they were all "Let me oppress as many as possible and stack away my fortune and f'n don't get in my way!"

That's what you think they taught? You don't read much do you. A pity.

Just the real world, not the hypothetical one.

Well I've probably lived in the real world for a lot more decades than you have. And I really REALLY hate modern education that so distorts the big picture for our young minds full of mush.

 

[FactFinder]

That's what you think they taught? You don't read much do you. A pity.

Just the real world, not the hypothetical one.

Well I've probably lived in the real world for a lot more decades than you have. And I really REALLY hate modern education that so distorts the big picture for our young minds full of mush.

Highly doubtful! You are probably a diaper failin, spring chicken to me.

 

[flacaltenn]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America lose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

Did you steal my library?? You left some Thoreau and other classic Liberals behind I guess.
I SHOULD be agreeing about Laissez Faire, but in this case -- I'm calling it a crisis of epic proportion. As pilot in command -- I'd be declaring an emergency.

Life would good as you described it if I believed that capital would flow quickly enough and efficiently enough to rescue the country from sliding into international irrelevence or worse. I believe that SOME of the money being doled out for subsidies of existing products out to be redirected to actual R&D. The rest of the subsidies should dissappear. We need the equivalent of DARPA (the folks who sponsored all those military driven breakthus like the internet and GPS) to steer us towards 21st Century Manufacturing technology.

We also need some HUGE kick in the pants to redefine education and how it's delivered and scored. There may be several instances in which I'm willing to accept some GOVT involvement in getting us out of the deep jam that we're in. But only if the Political Crapfest can be left at the door...

 

[FactFinder]

Absolutely -- no disagreement on that. But what's missing from the guidance we're all getting politically is the leadership neccessary to make sure that America REBUILDS a manufacturing/technology base.

I guess my 2cents here is that is really matters what KIND of jobs get created. It's a matter of national survival to recognize that we need basic upgrades in the skill sets for American workers AND all that stuff that you're wishing for in terms of policy. We need to fill our Colleges with AMERICAN kids in science and engineering. Not foreign visa holders. And we need less "consumption stimuli" and more talk about getting capital to flow to things like robotics, artificial intelligience, materials science, biotech, and basic research and innovation. And GET BETTER results for education dollars. From a societal point of view -- you can't lift the bottom 50% with a substandard education result.

So you take the economic policy changes that we need to see and I'll take the capital flow and workforce shift part of the problem and we'll fix this by Tuesday. Lord knows -- we won't get there with Stimuli and Green Jobs or Hope and Change or taxing the Rich...

Well I am a student of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Voltaire, Montesquieu et al and the more modern teachings of Shelby Steele, Sowell, Williams, Hayek, and Friedman. All these gentlemen were/are pretty well unified on appreciation for the laizzez faire, free market system with no more meddling or regulation or interference or engineering by government than is absolutely necessary. The federal government should secure our rights and then turn America lose to do whatever innovation, invention, and entreprenourship it comes up with to put us back at the top in vision, innovation, excellence, and productivity.

Get government out of education, out of most business regulation and mandates, and out of social engineering, and Americans will know what to do to put us back on track.

Did you steal my library?? You left some Thoreau and other classic Liberals behind I guess.
I SHOULD be agreeing about Laissez Faire, but in this case -- I'm calling it a crisis of epic proportion. As pilot in command -- I'd be declaring an emergency.

Life would good as you described it if I believed that capital would flow quickly enough and efficiently enough to rescue the country from sliding into international irrelevence or worse. I believe that SOME of the money being doled out for subsidies of existing products out to be redirected to actual R&D. The rest of the subsidies should dissappear. We need the equivalent of DARPA (the folks who sponsored all those military driven breakthus like the internet and GPS) to steer us towards 21st Century Manufacturing technology.

We also need some HUGE kick in the pants to redefine education and how it's delivered and scored. There may be several instances in which I'm willing to accept some GOVT involvement in getting us out of the deep jam that we're in. But only if the Political Crapfest can be left at the door...

Actually it is as simple as. "We've sold our soul to the international store."

 

[Steelplate]

Ok... I have read through this thread.
let me tell you something... the people that made the cabbage patch kids knew what they were doing. There wasn't nearly as much risk as you think... same with beanie babies and the like. there were millions of dollars thrown into research and development to aid in their success.

But times are different now than they were then. People don't have jobs and the people that do are hurting more than ever. Basics are more important than frivolities. Necessities are more important than luxuries. The crazy thing is that more and more of what used to be "luxuries" are now necessities. Television used to be a luxury.... now it is a necessity. Cell phones are becoming more and more of a necessity. Internet access, etc...

It's a matter of making things more complex to make profit, or making things simpler to make the masses more affordable.

 

[FactFinder]

Television used to be a luxury.... now it is a necessity.

and..why might that be? I frankly don't see it other than habit.

 

[FactFinder]

The rise of Glencore, the biggest company you've never heard of

The rise of Glencore, the biggest company you've never heard of | Business | The Guardian

Check out Glencore one of the biggest privately held companies that manipulate the commodities markets. You might want to pay attention you contribute to their cause every week. In some cases every day. They are so successful certain Asians are pirating their methods.

 

[NYcarbineer]

In an economy that is 70% consumption, the consumers are the job creators.

 

[flacaltenn]

Ok... I have read through this thread.
let me tell you something... the people that made the cabbage patch kids knew what they were doing. There wasn't nearly as much risk as you think... same with beanie babies and the like. there were millions of dollars thrown into research and development to aid in their success.

But times are different now than they were then. People don't have jobs and the people that do are hurting more than ever. Basics are more important than frivolities. Necessities are more important than luxuries. The crazy thing is that more and more of what used to be "luxuries" are now necessities. Television used to be a luxury.... now it is a necessity. Cell phones are becoming more and more of a necessity. Internet access, etc...

It's a matter of making things more complex to make profit, or making things simpler to make the masses more affordable.

That would be boring and pretty pessimistic.. But maybe that's where we're heading.

You should consider tho -- that the basic description of a JOB has changed. Used to be, when I was pup engineer, that i had an army of people supporting my work. I had secretaries, tech pub peoples, purchasing agents, drafters, PCBoard layout people, travel agents and the like. TODAY -- someone dropped a couple dozen computers in my office and I get to do all that stuff myself... The Unions have missed this point. They still treat the definition of a job as static and robotic. They actually think they can define the scope of the job in a simple contract.

Same deal happens with the defination of manufacturing. We are seeing a TEMPORARY shift to "cheap labor". That's the whole outsourcing dustup. But not a long time time from now in a galaxy not "far, far away".. ... Cheap labor will be irrelevent. Automation is gonna make 20th Century manufacturing look like 18th century blacksmithing. People are gonna have more time to ponder "beanie babies". Or hopefully biomedical devices that actually save lives. The idea of "unskilled labor" is gonna be history.. That's the future man. You gotta ponder it. And if we dont' drive the world there, we're gonna wake up as a debtor nation with new owners. We need to quit the political bickering and start rethinking jobs and jobs creators now..

 

[FactFinder]

COMMODITY TRADERS-the trillion dollar club

Awesome mo nonsense article:
COMMODITY TRADERS-the trillion dollar club | Reuters

Want to know what is happening to disposable income and why the average joe can no longer be a free consumer? The answer is there coupled with other hedge funds on Wall St. At least the Wall Street ones may be subject to regulation.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The rise of Glencore, the biggest company you've never heard of

The rise of Glencore, the biggest company you've never heard of | Business | The Guardian

Check out Glencore one of the biggest privately held companies that manipulate the commodities markets. You might want to pay attention you contribute to their cause every week. In some cases every day. They are so successful certain Asians are pirating their methods.

This made me think of another successful company that most people have never heard of......it isn't American....but it has a lot of very solid practices. Especially when it comes to executive compensation.

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia