Where do you republicans draw the line on privatizing government services?

[Billy000]

I really want you to think this through. Think about every example of government service in this country and give me an answer on which ones should be privatized.

1) Should the police and fire departments be privatized?

"Sorry ma'am, we can't put out your fire because you can't give me the $500 fee my boss demands. I'm going to see if your neighbor will pay their fee so we can at least save their house before this blaze gets out of control."

"Sorry, fine couple, I can't do any forensic work on this crime scene that left your son dead unless you can pay the $1000 fee of Basic Investigation. If you give me $1500, we'll upgrade you to the Deluxe Package of actually arresting the prime suspect seen leaving the scene of the crime."

2) How about our roads? You know, ANY roads funded by revenue that people can drive on?

"Sorry, Sir, I can't let you leave Cincinnati without you forking over the toll of $200 that would allow you to leave and then return to your beloved city."

3) Oh and how about our water supply? No need for pesky environmental regulations in that case!

"Sir, our competition has dumped toxic waste in the Arkansas river that is in the center of our jurisdiction. What do we do?"

"Take them to court! We'll sue their asses off even if it takes months for us to get the damages to clean out the waste! Until then, we'll sell the citizens our Extra Clean bottled water."

4) Oooo here's another! Privatizing ALL schools without ANY pesky government red tape!

"Sorry, Ma'am, we can't let your straight-A son graduate his senior year because you're short on your premium this week. Oh and by the way, your 9th grade daughter can no longer show up to school until you pay. It's a shame. She's a fine student as well."

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Not a republican, but I assume that you also wanted a comment from a libertarian.

Government should only be involved in providing goods/services that cannot be efficiently provided by the private sector.

Example, if the private sector controlled the building and maintenance of roads, and all roads were toll roads, how many roads leading to the same place would spring up? Would we be a nation of nothing but competing roads? How can competition make roads better with a limited amount of space to compete?

Military is another government function that is difficult to place in the private sector. How would that work? Would we end up with a bunch of mercenary armies that end up fighting each other, rather than protecting us? Police and fire services would have similar problems without an absolute monopoly.

Courts. We have a mechanism for private judicial processes (arbitration). The problem comes in when the people cannot agree on an arbitrator panel. At some point, somebody has to make the final decision that is certain and undisputed. Courts will never be privatized for that very reason.

I can think of nothing else the private sector could not absolutely beat the fuck out of government in providing goods and services.

 

[Pete7469]

Some of those "services" don't need to be provided by anyone.

Can the DEA go away now?

 

[forkup]

Not a republican, but I assume that you also wanted a comment from a libertarian.

Government should only be involved in providing goods/services that cannot be efficiently provided by the private sector.

Example, if the private sector controlled the building and maintenance of roads, and all roads were toll roads, how many roads leading to the same place would spring up? Would we be a nation of nothing but competing roads? How can competition make roads better with a limited amount of space to compete?

Military is another government function that is difficult to place in the private sector. How would that work? Would we end up with a bunch of mercenary armies that end up fighting each other, rather than protecting us? Police and fire services would have similar problems without an absolute monopoly.

Courts. We have a mechanism for private judicial processes (arbitration). The problem comes in when the people cannot agree on an arbitrator panel. At some point, somebody has to make the final decision that is certain and undisputed. Courts will never be privatized for that very reason.

I can think of nothing else the private sector could not absolutely beat the fuck out of government in providing goods and services.

I can. Health care.List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia. You have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And the goods and services provided in Belgium are better. I know this from first and second hand experiences.

 

[Asclepias]

Not a republican, but I assume that you also wanted a comment from a libertarian.

Government should only be involved in providing goods/services that cannot be efficiently provided by the private sector.

Example, if the private sector controlled the building and maintenance of roads, and all roads were toll roads, how many roads leading to the same place would spring up? Would we be a nation of nothing but competing roads? How can competition make roads better with a limited amount of space to compete?

Military is another government function that is difficult to place in the private sector. How would that work? Would we end up with a bunch of mercenary armies that end up fighting each other, rather than protecting us? Police and fire services would have similar problems without an absolute monopoly.

Courts. We have a mechanism for private judicial processes (arbitration). The problem comes in when the people cannot agree on an arbitrator panel. At some point, somebody has to make the final decision that is certain and undisputed. Courts will never be privatized for that very reason.

I can think of nothing else the private sector could not absolutely beat the fuck out of government in providing goods and services.

What service cant be provided for by the public sector and better than the government?

Court system < Professional Arbitrators

What makes you think a private army would end up fighting each other? It would be one entity. How would police and firemen have the same issue?

 

[Blackrook]

The fact that liberals seem to be unaware of is that privatization of government services has advanced quite well due to dumbass polices the liberals set up.

Government workers have oversized salaries, overgenerous pension plans, and are very difficult to fire even if they're incompetent.

Government has responded by hiring private contractors to perform many government functions, and then just hiring a few actual government employees to supervise the work of the contractors.

 

[Billy000]

Not a republican, but I assume that you also wanted a comment from a libertarian.

Government should only be involved in providing goods/services that cannot be efficiently provided by the private sector.

Example, if the private sector controlled the building and maintenance of roads, and all roads were toll roads, how many roads leading to the same place would spring up? Would we be a nation of nothing but competing roads? How can competition make roads better with a limited amount of space to compete?

Military is another government function that is difficult to place in the private sector. How would that work? Would we end up with a bunch of mercenary armies that end up fighting each other, rather than protecting us? Police and fire services would have similar problems without an absolute monopoly.

Courts. We have a mechanism for private judicial processes (arbitration). The problem comes in when the people cannot agree on an arbitrator panel. At some point, somebody has to make the final decision that is certain and undisputed. Courts will never be privatized for that very reason.

I can think of nothing else the private sector could not absolutely beat the fuck out of government in providing goods and services.

The fact that liberals seem to be unaware of is that privatization of government services has advanced quite well due to dumbass polices the liberals set up.

Government workers have oversized salaries, overgenerous pension plans, and are very difficult to fire even if they're incompetent.

Government has responded by hiring private contractors to perform many government functions, and then just hiring a few actual government employees to supervise the work of the contractors.

And yet you aren't actually acknowledging the points I made in my OP....

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I can. Health care.List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia. You have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And the goods and services provided in Belgium are better. I know this from first and second hand experiences.

Competition in healthcare makes it much better. No nation on earth has more innovative treatments and advancements than U.S. providers. The free market rewards improvements. Monopolies stagnate it. However, I will concede that healthcare in the U.S. is grossly inefficient, but that is a result of "insurance" artificially shielding providers from the consequences of waste.

I am nearly to the point where I believe we should either making health insurance illegal to prevent ridiculous waste, or we should go to single payer with a separate governing body of private-sector providers (actual doctors) who determine treatment standards and set costs.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Can the DEA go away now?

Amen. Fuck the war on drugs.

 

[Asclepias]

I can. Health care.List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia. You have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And the goods and services provided in Belgium are better. I know this from first and second hand experiences.

Competition in healthcare makes it much better. No nation on earth has more innovative treatments and advancements than U.S. providers. The free market rewards improvements. Monopolies stagnate it. However, I will concede that healthcare in the U.S. is grossly inefficient, but that is a result of "insurance" artificially shielding providers from the consequences of waste.

I am nearly to the point where I believe we should either making health insurance illegal to prevent ridiculous waste, or we should go to single payer with a separate governing body of private-sector providers (actual doctors) who determine treatment standards and set costs.

Thats not as a result of competition in healthcare itself. Its the result of pharmaceutical companies financing the research. Think about it. Doctors dont hoard their knowledge. They share it.

 

[Billy000]

I can. Health care.List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia. You have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And the goods and services provided in Belgium are better. I know this from first and second hand experiences.

Competition in healthcare makes it much better. No nation on earth has more innovative treatments and advancements than U.S. providers. The free market rewards improvements. Monopolies stagnate it. However, I will concede that healthcare in the U.S. is grossly inefficient, but that is a result of "insurance" artificially shielding providers from the consequences of waste.

I am nearly to the point where I believe we should either making health insurance illegal to prevent ridiculous waste, or we should go to single payer with a separate governing body of private-sector providers (actual doctors) who determine treatment standards and set costs.

His point isn't that the American healthcare technology isnt state of the art. His point is how affordable it is to consumers. Meaning how much dough are Americans forking over to get the same service in Belgium at a cheaper price.

So sure, oncology technology is stellar in the US. However, can the average American AFFORD It? No. Americans miss out on basic services because they can't afford it.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Thats not as a result of competition in healthcare itself. Its the result of pharmaceutical companies financing the research. Think about it. Doctors dont hoard their knowledge. They share it.

I was going to mention drug companies as well.

Doctors do not hoard knowledge, but they do profit from patents. The father of a girl I knew in high school is an OB/GYN. He developed some high-level advancements in surgical equipment that he held the patents on, which made him filthy rich. If he knew he would not profit from the innovative equipment, I doubt he would have gone to the trouble and expense of developing the equipment and taking it to market. He could share his idea all day long, but somebody has to do the work of making the idea a reality. Who would dare spend the time and resources without some realistic personal incentives? Too much work and expense for a doctor to take it on for the sole reward of advancing his field and the betterment of humanity. That's just bullshit.

 

[forkup]

I can. Health care.List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia. You have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And the goods and services provided in Belgium are better. I know this from first and second hand experiences.

Competition in healthcare makes it much better. No nation on earth has more innovative treatments and advancements than U.S. providers. The free market rewards improvements. Monopolies stagnate it. However, I will concede that healthcare in the U.S. is grossly inefficient, but that is a result of "insurance" artificially shielding providers from the consequences of waste.

I am nearly to the point where I believe we should either making health insurance illegal to prevent ridiculous waste, or we should go to single payer with a separate governing body of private-sector providers (actual doctors) who determine treatment standards and set costs.

While I agree that the US is the main provider for new treatments, it says nothing about how available it is. As to waste, I'll give you a few examples how government run health care in Belgium actually is more streamlined the anything you are used to in the US. For instance, my health insurance offers not just medical coverage but everything from hospital equipment for those needing it, to nurses and babysitters who come to the houses to provide care for those who need it. My town pop 40000 has about 20 people employed to staff the bureaucracy that staffs this system. Almost all of us have primary care physicians who don't need secretaries do deal with the red tape. So our ER only gets actual emergencies. Likewise for our pharmacies who fill scripts without the need to contact the health insurance to see if its covered. I just got an operation last week for carpel tunnel. I was diagnosed with it end of July. Got operated last Wednesday at 7am and was on my way home at 12,30. I had to fill in a medical questionnaire covering 5 pages and that was all the effort it took. Does this sound inefficient?

 

[forkup]

Thats not as a result of competition in healthcare itself. Its the result of pharmaceutical companies financing the research. Think about it. Doctors dont hoard their knowledge. They share it.

I was going to mention drug companies as well.

Doctors do not hoard knowledge, but they do profit from patents. The father of a girl I knew in high school is an OB/GYN. He developed some high-level advancements in surgical equipment that he held the patents on, which made him filthy rich. If he knew he would not profit from the innovative equipment, I doubt he would have gone to the trouble and expense of developing the equipment and taking it to market. He could share his idea all day long, but somebody has to do the work of making the idea a reality. Who would dare spend the time and resources without some realistic personal incentives? Too much work and expense for a doctor to take it on for the sole reward of advancing his field and the betterment of humanity. That's just bullshit.

Our universities do plenty of work in certain fields of medicine we are for instance leaders in Alzheimer research. While it's true we don't compete in every field Belgium does have quite a few people who are on the cutting edge of medicine.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Example, if the private sector controlled the building and maintenance of roads, and all roads were toll roads, how many roads leading to the same place would spring up?

Hugh? I'm sorry, but you lost me there. For nearly every place I've ever driven and that are popular destinations, until I get to with the last quarter-mile or so (maybe half-mile?) there are lots of roads -- some interstate highways and others "local" -- leading there.

Would we be a nation of nothing but competing roads? How can competition make roads better with a limited amount of space to compete?

Now this part of that paragraph, I totally understand and agree with. I just don't see the correlation between the start of the paragraph and its middle and ending sentences. Maybe there's no need to?

I can think of nothing else the private sector could not absolutely beat the fuck out of government in providing goods and services.

It may be that you cannot think of them, but they are in fact there.

• "The most comprehensive review of research on the effects of outsourcing was published in 2011 by the Danish institute AKF. It examined 80 studies since the year 2000 on the effects on costs and quality of services, and the impact on employees, including the sectors of water, waste management, electricity, public transport, education, healthcare, social care, employment, prisons and other services. It concluded that: “it is not possible to conclude unambiguously that there is any systematic difference in terms of the economic effects of contracting out technical areas and social services”
  Source

In the super-competitive telecoms sector, where customers have benefited from lower costs and increasing variety of services over the years, this result holds. The above referenced survey found that "privatized sectors perform significantly worse" than telecom companies remaining in state hands.

Healthcare is where this myth is really given the lie. In the US, where healthcare spending is at its peak, with private spending on healthcare exceeding public spending, basic health outcomes are worse than in Cuba – which spends a fraction of the US amount per person in a totally public healthcare system.

A 2012 report by the US Institute of Medicine was damning:

"30 cents of every medical dollar goes to unnecessary healthcare, deceitful paperwork, fraud and other waste. The $750 billion in annual waste is more than the Pentagon budget and more than enough to care for every American who lacks health insurance… Most of the waste came from unnecessary services ($210 billion annually), excess administrative costs ($190 billion) and inefficient delivery of care ($130 billion)."​

To say that the public sector can perform just as well as, and often better than, the private sector is not to argue that it does not need reform in many instances. The public sector can be equally blighted with problems of corruption at the higher levels of management. But active unions and engaged service users can provide a check, and public consultation has a democratic advantage, as in the case of South Africa, where municipal unions have allied with communities in order both to fight the privatization of water and sanitation services and to get greater accountability within the organizations they work for.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What makes you think a private army would end up fighting each other? It would be one entity.

That would be a monopoly. That is de facto, government service. There is no competition.

 

[Billy000]

What makes you think a private army would end up fighting each other? It would be one entity.

That would be a monopoly. That is de facto, government service. There is no competition.

Luckily there is no monopoly in the public sector because it is dictated to operate based on strict policy.

 

[K9Buck]

I think government should do everything for me and that everything should be free and we should make it a law that it's Christmas every day! That's why I'm with Bernie!

 

[Billy000]

I think government should do everything for me and that everything should be free and we should make it a law that it's Christmas every day! That's why I'm with Bernie!

Well, you like to troll the Bernie supporters. I get it. Too bad you aren't even close to generalizing them. The average Bernie supporter makes 40K a year and has a degree in higher education. Compare that to the average Trump supporter who never makes it to college.

 

[K9Buck]

I think government should do everything for me and that everything should be free and we should make it a law that it's Christmas every day! That's why I'm with Bernie!

Well, you like to troll the Bernie supporters. I get it. Too bad you aren't even close to generalizing them. The average Bernie supporter makes 40K a year and has a degree in higher education. Compare that to the average Trump supporter who never makes it to college.

Bernie wants virtual open borders, $15 minimum wage for all, free education for everyone and wants us to pay for the healthcare of every one in the nation plus the 50 million people that would move here if he became president. One doesn't have to be an MIT grad to figure out that Bernie would be a DISASTER for the average American. No wonder liberals love him.