Where do religious folk who are climate deniers reconcile this?

[Dr Grump]

Let's play a game, Grump.

What is this?

View attachment 283354

No idea. Please enlighten me Oh Wise One...

Just take a guess.

Read and learn. Let go of your ignorance.
The bacterial flagellar motor: brilliant evolution or intelligent design?

 

[daveman]

I'm well acquainted with the meanings. I wonder if you are. You keep demanding proof of God.

Faith precludes proof. Proof of God would render faith meaningless, and utterly negate Man's free will.

Let's have a thought experiment. In this experiment, God created the universe 10 minutes ago, in its current state as of 10 minutes ago, with all the "evidence" it's billions of years old built-in, with the light from distant stars created in transit, and us with all our memories of a lifetime in place.

Now...how could you disprove this?

It's not up to me to prove or disprove if it is your contention. Science is being proven all the time, whether it be Isaac Newton and gravity, or the aerodynamics of an aeroplane.

Again, you can believe whatever you want to believe. I've always seen the "you have to have faith, you don't need proof of a god" as a cop out. What does man's free will matter anyway? There is no free will under god. There are strings attached.

I'm not making that contention; it's a thought experiment. You need to think.

Looks like you're not interested, though. Too heavily emotionally invested in your atheism, looks like.

You claim to understand faith, but you keep proving you know nothing about it.

Of course there is free will under God. You choose to believe in Him, or you don't. He's made very clear the consequences of either choice. It's completely up to you.

If a mugger holds a knife to your throat and demands you wallet, do you feel generous for giving it to him? No. You had no choice Free will was removed from the equation.

If you drop a handful of cash in a busker's guitar case on the street, do you feel generous for giving it to her? You should. You exercised free will to be charitable; you gave something you had to someone who didn't. You didn't have to, and unless she gives you an IRS form, you won't get any tangible benefit from the gift.

Get it?

Hey, Grump, you can ignore this post...but that doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[Dr Grump]

I'm not making that contention; it's a thought experiment. You need to think.

Looks like you're not interested, though. Too heavily emotionally invested in your atheism, looks like.

You claim to understand faith, but you keep proving you know nothing about it.

Of course there is free will under God. You choose to believe in Him, or you don't. He's made very clear the consequences of either choice. It's completely up to you.

If a mugger holds a knife to your throat and demands you wallet, do you feel generous for giving it to him? No. You had no choice Free will was removed from the equation.

If you drop a handful of cash in a busker's guitar case on the street, do you feel generous for giving it to her? You should. You exercised free will to be charitable; you gave something you had to someone who didn't. You didn't have to, and unless she gives you an IRS form, you won't get any tangible benefit from the gift.

Get it?

Your god comes with strings attached. Doesn't seem like a very nice god.

Doesn't seen to me like 'free will' when there are strings attached. When it comes to your god it seems the first example with the mugger is more true than the latter example.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

"True" in what regard?

 

[Dr Grump]

"True" in what regard?

A 'knife' being held to the throat. "Believe in me, or else". What a lovely god.
And why does this god need to be worshipped? Massive ego, no?

 

[Dr Grump]

 

[satrebil]

Let's play a game, Grump.

What is this?

View attachment 283354

No idea. Please enlighten me Oh Wise One...

Just take a guess.

Read and learn. Let go of your ignorance.
The bacterial flagellar motor: brilliant evolution or intelligent design?

Took you long enough to reverse image search that.

Funny how you bring up "ignorance". There's not a soul on earth that would look at a robotic hand and not realize that someone built it, yet you would look at your own hand and claim it's "random chance".

What you are seeing with things such as the flagellar motor is clear evidence of nano-technology - you just refuse to accept it.

Yep - ^that^ totally looks like random convergence to me. Not designed at all.

 

[Dr Grump]

Let's play a game, Grump.

What is this?

View attachment 283354

No idea. Please enlighten me Oh Wise One...

Just take a guess.

Read and learn. Let go of your ignorance.
The bacterial flagellar motor: brilliant evolution or intelligent design?

Took you long enough to reverse image search that.

Funny how you bring up "ignorance". There's not a soul on earth that would look at a robotic hand and not realize that someone built it, yet you would look at your own hand and claim it's "random chance".

What you are seeing with things such as the flagellar motor is clear evidence of nano-technology - you just refuse to accept it.

View attachment 283619

Yep - ^that^ totally looks like random convergence to me. Not designed at all.

Um no. Read my link. It's all scientifically explained. Pretty simple really. And no, it took me all of five seconds to research it.

 

[satrebil]

Let's play a game, Grump.

What is this?

View attachment 283354

No idea. Please enlighten me Oh Wise One...

Just take a guess.

Read and learn. Let go of your ignorance.
The bacterial flagellar motor: brilliant evolution or intelligent design?

Took you long enough to reverse image search that.

Funny how you bring up "ignorance". There's not a soul on earth that would look at a robotic hand and not realize that someone built it, yet you would look at your own hand and claim it's "random chance".

What you are seeing with things such as the flagellar motor is clear evidence of nano-technology - you just refuse to accept it.

View attachment 283619

Yep - ^that^ totally looks like random convergence to me. Not designed at all.

Um no. Read my link. It's all scientifically explained. Pretty simple really. And no, it took me all of five seconds to research it.

Oh yeah, great link there guy... did you actually read it?

Quote:

"Proof of the flagellar motor's 'reducibility' — that it's component parts can function elsewhere — comes in the form of the injectisome; another fabulous molecular machine found in bacteria. This needle-like complex is used by disease-causing bacteria to punch holes in the host's target cells.

The protein machinery used to assemble the proteins that make up the punching needle is identical to that used to assemble the 'propeller' part of the flagellar motor — the filament and hook of the motor. In addition, nine core proteins of the flagellar motor share common ancestry with injectisome proteins — the genes that code for them are so similar they have clearly come from the same genetic ancestor.

In fact, the flagellar motor contains a wealth of other evidence pointing not to intelligent design, but to its evolutionary origins."

So, the author claims it's evolution because it can be reduced down to smaller components that are seen elsewhere performing other tasks. Well no shit Sherlock, I could say the same thing about nuts and bolts on a fucking airplane. The logic this author and you are promoting here is "airplanes have nuts and bolts, and lawnmowers have nuts and bolts that perform similar functions but in different capacities, therefore the nuts and bolts clearly evolved." You dare speak of ignorance?

The lengths you atheists will go to deny what's staring you right in the face is truly astounding.

 

[Dr Grump]

Quote:

"Proof of the flagellar motor's 'reducibility' — that it's component parts can function elsewhere — comes in the form of the injectisome; another fabulous molecular machine found in bacteria. This needle-like complex is used by disease-causing bacteria to punch holes in the host's target cells.

The protein machinery used to assemble the proteins that make up the punching needle is identical to that used to assemble the 'propeller' part of the flagellar motor — the filament and hook of the motor. In addition, nine core proteins of the flagellar motor share common ancestry with injectisome proteins — the genes that code for them are so similar they have clearly come from the same genetic ancestor.

In fact, the flagellar motor contains a wealth of other evidence pointing not to intelligent design, but to its evolutionary origins."

So, the author claims it's evolution because it can be reduced down to smaller components that are seen elsewhere performing other tasks. Well no shit Sherlock, I could say the same thing about nuts and bolts on a fucking airplane. The logic this author and you are promoting here is "airplanes have nuts and bolts, and lawnmowers have nuts and bolts that perform similar functions but in different capacities, therefore the nuts and bolts clearly evolved." You dare speak of ignorance?

The lengths you atheists will go to deny what's staring you right in the face is truly astounding.

That's not what he is saying at all. It would be more true to say he is saying, here's aeroplane. This one has plastic seats, this one has polycarbonate seats. Very similar and evolution has had an impact. Your example is like saying riding a bike is the same as driving a ferrari. Sure, you can steer both, and they both have wheels. That's about it. The author of the link is being a lot more succinct than you are.

So your God, as well as going abracadabra and making shit up from nothing decides to make this little bacteria machine that swims up and down our body. For what purpose? what is the point of him doing that? he doesn't need to do that. All he has to do is make us immortal. Why not do that instead?

The lengths you god-botherers will go to try and make shit up to try and prove an unprovable point is absurd. You know, if god did exist, why go to all that trouble to 'prove' his/her existence by leaving little clues that you think he has left like the flagellar motor. Why not just go, 'here I am' instead of playing silly little games.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

A 'knife' being held to the throat. "Believe in me, or else". What a lovely god.
And why does this god need to be worshipped? Massive ego, no?

That's religion at work again. Not God per se. Religion is the domain of people.
And it's religion that says God needs to be constantly worshiped and praised.

How do I know? Because not all religions claim God should be worshiped in the same way.

WE say believe in God or else. WE require prayer. Religion is culturally based and every
religion has it's own source story and version of God, or multiple Gods even.

Like many atheists you conflate God and religion.

 

[Dr Grump]

Like many atheists you conflate God and religion.

Well, that's your definition (ie there is a difference between god and religion). That being said, I would suggest that since it is the religious who set these standards, they are the ones guilty of conflating god and religion.

 

[anynameyouwish]

Not too sure if this is current events (climate change) or religion (Christianity).

Climate deniers are always rambling on about empirical evidence not being available on humans causing climate change (even though scientists use the well-proven and peer-reviewed modelling method that show unequivocally that we are having a negative effect), yet there is absolutely zero evidence of a god. Only faith. It seems - and I'm only going on anecdotal evidence on this board - that almost all climate-change-is-being-caused-by-humans deniers are conservatives, and quite a few are Christians. Seems hypocrisy to me...

Climate Deniers don't actually believe what they say.
They are pretty sure that the climate IS changing and that global warming is, indeed, happening. The reason they SAY they do not believe it is because they WANT it to happen......

they WANT global warming to raise the sea levels to drown everyone in the lower lands....


that is why so many of them live in the mountains.

 

[Dr Grump]

Climate Deniers don't actually believe what they say.
They are pretty sure that the climate IS changing and that global warming is, indeed, happening. The reason they SAY they do not believe it is because they WANT it to happen......

they WANT global warming to raise the sea levels to drown everyone in the lower lands....


that is why so many of them live in the mountains.

ooookayyy....

 

[daveman]

I'm not making that contention; it's a thought experiment. You need to think.

Looks like you're not interested, though. Too heavily emotionally invested in your atheism, looks like.

You claim to understand faith, but you keep proving you know nothing about it.

Of course there is free will under God. You choose to believe in Him, or you don't. He's made very clear the consequences of either choice. It's completely up to you.

If a mugger holds a knife to your throat and demands you wallet, do you feel generous for giving it to him? No. You had no choice Free will was removed from the equation.

If you drop a handful of cash in a busker's guitar case on the street, do you feel generous for giving it to her? You should. You exercised free will to be charitable; you gave something you had to someone who didn't. You didn't have to, and unless she gives you an IRS form, you won't get any tangible benefit from the gift.

Get it?

Your god comes with strings attached. Doesn't seem like a very nice god.

Doesn't seen to me like 'free will' when there are strings attached. When it comes to your god it seems the first example with the mugger is more true than the latter example.

You want to be rewarded for no effort on your part?

How childish.

 

[daveman]

"True" in what regard?

A 'knife' being held to the throat. "Believe in me, or else". What a lovely god.
And why does this god need to be worshipped? Massive ego, no?

Yup, I called it. You can't tolerate the idea of a power greater than yourself.

 

[Dr Grump]

Yup, I called it. You can't tolerate the idea of a power greater than yourself.

Where does my querying why a 'power' wants those to worship him or her unconditionally on pain of eternal hell (which by the way isn't even mentioned in the bible) seems like something/someone you would want to follow unconditionally?

And you said it. It's all about power. Is that a good thing?

 

[daveman]

Quote:

"Proof of the flagellar motor's 'reducibility' — that it's component parts can function elsewhere — comes in the form of the injectisome; another fabulous molecular machine found in bacteria. This needle-like complex is used by disease-causing bacteria to punch holes in the host's target cells.

The protein machinery used to assemble the proteins that make up the punching needle is identical to that used to assemble the 'propeller' part of the flagellar motor — the filament and hook of the motor. In addition, nine core proteins of the flagellar motor share common ancestry with injectisome proteins — the genes that code for them are so similar they have clearly come from the same genetic ancestor.

In fact, the flagellar motor contains a wealth of other evidence pointing not to intelligent design, but to its evolutionary origins."

So, the author claims it's evolution because it can be reduced down to smaller components that are seen elsewhere performing other tasks. Well no shit Sherlock, I could say the same thing about nuts and bolts on a fucking airplane. The logic this author and you are promoting here is "airplanes have nuts and bolts, and lawnmowers have nuts and bolts that perform similar functions but in different capacities, therefore the nuts and bolts clearly evolved." You dare speak of ignorance?

The lengths you atheists will go to deny what's staring you right in the face is truly astounding.

That's not what he is saying at all. It would be more true to say he is saying, here's aeroplane. This one has plastic seats, this one has polycarbonate seats. Very similar and evolution has had an impact. Your example is like saying riding a bike is the same as driving a ferrari. Sure, you can steer both, and they both have wheels. That's about it. The author of the link is being a lot more succinct than you are.

So your God, as well as going abracadabra and making shit up from nothing decides to make this little bacteria machine that swims up and down our body. For what purpose? what is the point of him doing that? he doesn't need to do that. All he has to do is make us immortal. Why not do that instead?

The lengths you god-botherers will go to try and make shit up to try and prove an unprovable point is absurd. You know, if god did exist, why go to all that trouble to 'prove' his/her existence by leaving little clues that you think he has left like the flagellar motor. Why not just go, 'here I am' instead of playing silly little games.

Again...no understanding of faith.

An immortal being in a universe governed by entropy would be proof of a creator.

 

[daveman]

Not too sure if this is current events (climate change) or religion (Christianity).

Climate deniers are always rambling on about empirical evidence not being available on humans causing climate change (even though scientists use the well-proven and peer-reviewed modelling method that show unequivocally that we are having a negative effect), yet there is absolutely zero evidence of a god. Only faith. It seems - and I'm only going on anecdotal evidence on this board - that almost all climate-change-is-being-caused-by-humans deniers are conservatives, and quite a few are Christians. Seems hypocrisy to me...

Climate Deniers don't actually believe what they say.
They are pretty sure that the climate IS changing and that global warming is, indeed, happening. The reason they SAY they do not believe it is because they WANT it to happen......

they WANT global warming to raise the sea levels to drown everyone in the lower lands....


that is why so many of them live in the mountains.

Ummmm...no.

 

[daveman]

Yup, I called it. You can't tolerate the idea of a power greater than yourself.

Where does my querying why a 'power' wants those to worship him or her unconditionally on pain of eternal hell (which by the way isn't even mentioned in the bible) seems like something/someone you would want to follow unconditionally?

And you said it. It's all about power. Is that a good thing?

When I chose to believe, it wasn't through any threat of hell. It was due to the chance to spend eternity with someone who loved me utterly.

God loves us, and wants to show us in person, through all time.