When it hits the fan. A survival discussion.

[WinterBorn]

In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons. I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.

First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing. I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.

Level 1: Short term disaster - This is what I think of as a widespread post-Katrina type situation. Complete disaster, but recovery measured in months.

Level 2: Medium term disaster - This is a societal collapse but without the destruction of some of the infrastructure. Far worse than a Level 1, but it is still about surviving until things get put back together. An invasion, revolution or even a plague could cause this. Recovery in a couple of years.

Level 3: TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It) - This could be a nuclear war, a major solar storm, or just some sort of apocalypse. This type event will see no recovery for at least a couple of generations.

Anyone have plans or plans for plans? Or ideas?

 

[Asclepias]

I'm only prepared for Level 1. Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.

 

[Swagger]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

 

[WinterBorn]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

That is actually what I based my 3 levels on. How long it takes to recover is basic to how long you have to fend for yourself or how long your group has to fend for itself.

 

[koshergrl]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.

 

[Swagger]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.

Yeah, but a complete financial collapse won't poison the water or significantly reduce or spoil wildlife stocks that could sustain us like a natural disaster or nuclear strike could.

 

[WinterBorn]

I'm only prepared for Level 1. Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.

Actually, a longer term disaster requires more planning and preparation, obviously. And steps need to be taken rather quickly.

For example, food for you and your family. If you don't eat you don't survive. Having enough canned goods to last a month or so is not too difficult. But beyond that, especially if it lasts a year or two, will take planning.

It will also depend on when the SHTF. If you have the means for a garden, and things blow up in march, you only have to feed yourself for 3 or 4 months, until you have some fresh produce. However, if the SHTF happens in September, you have 8 or 10 months before your garden is feeding anyone (depending on where you live). And you have to make sure the plants survive pests, animals, and other people who don't like the idea of starving.

For Level 3, you have to be prepared to basically replace everything you need over the long haul. Yes, our ancestors made their own clothes. But I haven't seen a loom or method for making cloth outside of historical displays. I love my Carhartts, but even they will wear out.

Level 1 can be done on your own or your own family. Level 2 you might make it, but would be far better off in a group. Level 3 means a community or death.

 

[WinterBorn]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.

Yeah, but a complete financial collapse won't poison the water or significantly reduce or spoil wildlife stocks that could sustain us like a natural disaster or nuclear strike could.

But that financial collapse will stop fuel and food transport. Which means the majority of people will be starving in a matter of weeks (at best). Grocery stores will be empty in a couple of days. Then you have a huge migration of starving people out into the rural areas in search of food. Game animals will be scarcer and farms will be overrun in short order, unless you have a means to protect them. And it won't be a matter of show, but of the willingness and the means to kill hundreds (if not thousands) of people.

 

[Swagger]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.

Yeah, but a complete financial collapse won't poison the water or significantly reduce or spoil wildlife stocks that could sustain us like a natural disaster or nuclear strike could.

But that financial collapse will stop fuel and food transport. Which means the majority of people will be starving in a matter of weeks (at best). Grocery stores will be empty in a couple of days. Then you have a huge migration of starving people out into the rural areas in search of food. Game animals will be scarcer and farms will be overrun in short order, unless you have a means to protect them. And it won't be a matter of show, but of the willingness and the means to kill hundreds (if not thousands) of people.

I don't disagree that a financial collapse would have a serious knock-on effect that would play-out as you've described. The point I was trying to make - perhaps not very clearly - is that some 'disasters' or events have much more serious consequences, like the removal/spoiling of things we need to survive, like food and water. A nuclear strike would have a much greater/lasting effect on those resources than a financial collapse would.

 

[Asclepias]

I'm only prepared for Level 1. Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.

Actually, a longer term disaster requires more planning and preparation, obviously. And steps need to be taken rather quickly.

For example, food for you and your family. If you don't eat you don't survive. Having enough canned goods to last a month or so is not too difficult. But beyond that, especially if it lasts a year or two, will take planning.

It will also depend on when the SHTF. If you have the means for a garden, and things blow up in march, you only have to feed yourself for 3 or 4 months, until you have some fresh produce. However, if the SHTF happens in September, you have 8 or 10 months before your garden is feeding anyone (depending on where you live). And you have to make sure the plants survive pests, animals, and other people who don't like the idea of starving.

For Level 3, you have to be prepared to basically replace everything you need over the long haul. Yes, our ancestors made their own clothes. But I haven't seen a loom or method for making cloth outside of historical displays. I love my Carhartts, but even they will wear out.

Level 1 can be done on your own or your own family. Level 2 you might make it, but would be far better off in a group. Level 3 means a community or death.

Planning further out than a level 1 event takes coordination with others I may not be able to count on in the event things get worse. I'm a survivor and confident in my abilities to adjust to any situation. I can live off the land if need be no matter where I am at. If death is unavoidable then I can accept that as well.

 

[koshergrl]

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.

If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.

Yeah, but a complete financial collapse won't poison the water or significantly reduce or spoil wildlife stocks that could sustain us like a natural disaster or nuclear strike could.

You certainly hope so. You realize the chances of a "complete financial collapse" is a lot less likely than a huge earthquake or solar flare or whatever, right?

 

[koshergrl]

I'm only prepared for Level 1. Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.

Actually, a longer term disaster requires more planning and preparation, obviously. And steps need to be taken rather quickly.

For example, food for you and your family. If you don't eat you don't survive. Having enough canned goods to last a month or so is not too difficult. But beyond that, especially if it lasts a year or two, will take planning.

It will also depend on when the SHTF. If you have the means for a garden, and things blow up in march, you only have to feed yourself for 3 or 4 months, until you have some fresh produce. However, if the SHTF happens in September, you have 8 or 10 months before your garden is feeding anyone (depending on where you live). And you have to make sure the plants survive pests, animals, and other people who don't like the idea of starving.

For Level 3, you have to be prepared to basically replace everything you need over the long haul. Yes, our ancestors made their own clothes. But I haven't seen a loom or method for making cloth outside of historical displays. I love my Carhartts, but even they will wear out.

Level 1 can be done on your own or your own family. Level 2 you might make it, but would be far better off in a group. Level 3 means a community or death.

Planning further out than a level 1 event takes coordination with others I may not be able to count on in the event things get worse. I'm a survivor and confident in my abilities to adjust to any situation. I can live off the land if need be no matter where I am at. If death is unavoidable then I can accept that as well.

Really.

How many years have you spent living off the land?

 

[koshergrl]

A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.

So, so clueless.

 

[WinterBorn]

Living off the land sounds like a great plan. Until you are starving and the land is being stripped by 200 others who had the same plan.

The problem with all these people who have a vague plan is that it won't work in reality.

 

[Missourian]

I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here, and expound a little.

We've (the wife and I) decided that we are going to hunker down here in our rural town. It's quiet here, lots of hunters and good ol' boys. And there is just too much to move or duplicate purchase.

Ever read Ferfal Aguirre's blog?

That's how I see our collapse...not a total meltdown, just you better be ready.

IMO, it is going to be safer and the quality of life will be higher in a town with a local infrastructure already in place.

What are we buying for SHTF? Things like crocks for fermentation, mason jars, hand woodworking tools, nails and screws in jars from auctions and yard sales, barrels that iodine came in from livestock farmers.

The wood stove in my shop has the pot holes for cooking. We just bought a wood stove for the house, before EPA regulations kicked in. I'm learning how to work leather. All these things save us money in the long run...we eat better from the garden, and there are no preservatives, dyes and other junk in the food we can. And I love to make things myself...it's fun and satisfying.

IMO, you are going to need the infrastructure of a town. Things like the library, hospital, police and fire departments, local government...they are going to be crucial.

To have any kind of quality of life, resources are going to need to be pooled. No person is an island. Without power, there will be no running water. And even if you have a river or stream in your town, every idiot up stream is going to be shitting in it. And later diverting it. That means rain water and wells, or boil every thing which will use up the limit resources close to your town. So at least a portion of your citizens will need to garden and raise livestock, some are going to have to hunt and scavenge, some are going to need to dig wells and contained latrines, some are going to have to cut wood, some will need to tend charcoal mounds (to use for water purification and blacksmithing)...and all that requires co-ordination.

And you know, some idiot, with thousands of fires burning in the woods to cook and boil water is going to burn the forest down. It's almost a certainty. so you need a team to clear fire breaks too.

So, what should you be looking for today? A midsized rural town, preferably with a river flowing through it or a river or large lake close by, with police and fire department, library, hospital, surrounded by a mix of agriculture and forest, a citizenry of hard working, mostly self sufficient folks, far enough from a major metropolitan that you won't be overrun by a horde of refugees.

Aside from the aforementioned supplies, add SALT...and lots of it. Cheap and available today...worth it's weight in gold when you can no longer get it shipped to you by truck. Cast iron dutch ovens and skillets. Fire starters. And knowledge.

Crap, that was long winded...and that's just page one of the introduction to the book I would have to write...

 

[Asclepias]

I'm only prepared for Level 1. Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.

Actually, a longer term disaster requires more planning and preparation, obviously. And steps need to be taken rather quickly.

For example, food for you and your family. If you don't eat you don't survive. Having enough canned goods to last a month or so is not too difficult. But beyond that, especially if it lasts a year or two, will take planning.

It will also depend on when the SHTF. If you have the means for a garden, and things blow up in march, you only have to feed yourself for 3 or 4 months, until you have some fresh produce. However, if the SHTF happens in September, you have 8 or 10 months before your garden is feeding anyone (depending on where you live). And you have to make sure the plants survive pests, animals, and other people who don't like the idea of starving.

For Level 3, you have to be prepared to basically replace everything you need over the long haul. Yes, our ancestors made their own clothes. But I haven't seen a loom or method for making cloth outside of historical displays. I love my Carhartts, but even they will wear out.

Level 1 can be done on your own or your own family. Level 2 you might make it, but would be far better off in a group. Level 3 means a community or death.

Planning further out than a level 1 event takes coordination with others I may not be able to count on in the event things get worse. I'm a survivor and confident in my abilities to adjust to any situation. I can live off the land if need be no matter where I am at. If death is unavoidable then I can accept that as well.

Really.

How many years have you spent living off the land?

Enough to be comfortable with it.

 

[WinterBorn]

A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.

So, so clueless.

Initially there will be the deer in the suburbs and will feed a few people for a week or two. But the deer are far more adaptable than the majority of the people. They'll be gone (or far harder to hunt) almost immediately.

Having recipes for rat would be a good idea.

 

[koshergrl]

I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here, and expound a little.

We've (the wife and I) decided that we are going to hunker down here in our rural town. It's quiet here, lots of hunters and good ol' boys. And there is just too much to move or duplicate purchase.

Ever read Ferfal Aguirre's blog?

That's how I see our collapse...not a total meltdown, just you better be ready.

IMO, it is going to be safer and the quality of life will be higher in a town with a local infrastructure already in place.

What are we buying for SHTF? Things like crocks for fermentation, mason jars, hand woodworking tools, nails and screws in jars from auctions and yard sales, barrels that iodine came in from livestock farmers.

The wood stove in my shop has the pot holes for cooking. We just bought a wood stove for the house, before EPA regulations kicked in. I'm learning how to work leather. All these things save us money in the long run...we eat better from the garden, and there are no preservatives, dyes and other junk in the food we can. And I love to make things myself...it's fun and satisfying.

IMO, you are going to need the infrastructure of a town. Things like the library, hospital, police and fire departments, local government...they are going to be crucial.

To have any kind of quality of life, resources are going to need to be pooled. No person is an island. Without power, there will be no running water. And even if you have a river or stream in your town, every idiot up stream is going to be shitting in it. And later diverting it. That means rain water and wells, or boil every thing which will use up the limit resources close to your town. So at least a portion of your citizens will need to garden and raise livestock, some are going to have to hunt and scavenge, some are going to need to dig wells and contained latrines, some are going to have to cut wood, some will need to tend charcoal mounds (to use for water purification and blacksmithing)...and all that requires co-ordination.

And you know, some idiot, with thousands of fires burning in the woods to cook and boil water is going to burn the forest down. It's almost a certainty. so you need a team to clear fire breaks too.

So, what should you be looking for today? A midsized rural town, preferably with a river flowing through it or a river or large lake close by, with police and fire department, library, hospital, surrounded by a mix of agriculture and forest, a citizenry of hard working, mostly self sufficient folks, far enough from a major metropolitan that you won't be overrun by a horde of refugees.

Aside from the aforementioned supplies, add SALT...and lots of it. Cheap and available today...worth it's weight in gold when you can no longer get it shipped to you by truck. Cast iron dutch ovens and skillets. Fire starters. And knowledge.

Crap, that was long winded...and that's just page one of the introduction to the book I would have to write...

As soon as the world ends I am packing it up and starting towards you. I've seen your barbecue.

Hahaha not really.

I was raised by a hillbilly mother in the area where I live. I actually fantasize about the day when the infrastructure collapses and the old people and transplants from California either go away or die.

 

[WinterBorn]

I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here, and expound a little.

We've (the wife and I) decided that we are going to hunker down here in our rural town. It's quiet here, lots of hunters and good ol' boys. And there is just too much to move or duplicate purchase.

Ever read Ferfal Aguirre's blog?

That's how I see our collapse...not a total meltdown, just you better be ready.

IMO, it is going to be safer and the quality of life will be higher in a town with a local infrastructure already in place.

What are we buying for SHTF? Things like crocks for fermentation, mason jars, hand woodworking tools, nails and screws in jars from auctions and yard sales, barrels that iodine came in from livestock farmers.

The wood stove in my shop has the pot holes for cooking. We just bought a wood stove for the house, before EPA regulations kicked in. I'm learning how to work leather. All these things save us money in the long run...we eat better from the garden, and there are no preservatives, dyes and other junk in the food we can. And I love to make things myself...it's fun and satisfying.

IMO, you are going to need the infrastructure of a town. Things like the library, hospital, police and fire departments, local government...they are going to be crucial.

To have any kind of quality of life, resources are going to need to be pooled. No person is an island. Without power, there will be no running water. And even if you have a river or stream in your town, every idiot up stream is going to be shitting in it. And later diverting it. That means rain water and wells, or boil every thing which will use up the limit resources close to your town. So at least a portion of your citizens will need to garden and raise livestock, some are going to have to hunt and scavenge, some are going to need to dig wells and contained latrines, some are going to have to cut wood, some will need to tend charcoal mounds (to use for water purification and blacksmithing)...and all that requires co-ordination.

And you know, some idiot, with thousands of fires burning in the woods to cook and boil water is going to burn the forest down. It's almost a certainty. so you need a team to clear fire breaks too.

So, what should you be looking for today? A midsized rural town, preferably with a river flowing through it or a river or large lake close by, with police and fire department, library, hospital, surrounded by a mix of agriculture and forest, a citizenry of hard working, mostly self sufficient folks, far enough from a major metropolitan that you won't be overrun by a horde of refugees.

Aside from the aforementioned supplies, add SALT...and lots of it. Cheap and available today...worth it's weight in gold when you can no longer get it shipped to you by truck. Cast iron dutch ovens and skillets. Fire starters. And knowledge.

Crap, that was long winded...and that's just page one of the introduction to the book I would have to write...

Salt is one of the items you rarely see mentioned in a long term survival plan. But you are right, it will be critical for several reasons. And as a barter item, it will be invaluable.

 

[Asclepias]

Living off the land sounds like a great plan. Until you are starving and the land is being stripped by 200 others who had the same plan.

The problem with all these people who have a vague plan is that it won't work in reality.

My plan is not vague. I am well versed in what plants are edible, how to grow them, how to find them in the wild. I am also well versed on how to trap animals for food, their habits and how to preserve meat.. My grandfather taught me these things as they lived completely off the land for years..