When I was in my late teens sweating out Nam and the draft

[MikeK]

[...]Now since I know you were around back then, I'm going to ask you once again where in Vietnam you served; because unless you were there, you only THINK you know what Vietnam was about! I do not believe you would be quite so dismissive of opinions from those who were, had you seen, heard, and smelled the results of the atrocities the VC and NVA communists committed against their own people.[...]

There rarely is a time when similar atrocities arent being committed somewhere in the world, such as Darfur for one example. Do you believe we should serve as cops of the world and intervene?

 

[9thIDdoc]

As I recall, North Vietnam infiltrated and attempted to invade South Vietnam, in violation of international law, an ally we had a treaty obligation to defend.[...]

Our treaty obligation was to defend the nation of Vietnam against aggression by anti-Western powers. Vietnam was not attacked by any foreign power. Vietnam was engaged in a civil war. There were no foreign troops on that soil -- except ours! Technically and legally we had no business interfering in that civil war! And that is the "mistake" Robert MacNamara finally got around to admitting we made in getting involved there.

All I have to say about your declared willingness to go there under arms and the absence of any regret is you're lucky you're not in a wheelchair today, or worse. Because if you were you either would be singing a different tune or you would be considered mentally defective. And I tell you this because as a protester I met several disabled vets who were crippled in Vietnam and I will wager heavily that none of them have your cavalier attitude -- especially the one who had half his face burned off.

What for??

------------

Great. So now-in your infinite (delusional) wisdom- you know more about disabled Vietnam vets than we do who are. What an ego trip!

Vietnam was not attacked by any foreign power

Bullshit, even the N. Vietnamese no longer deny they invaded.

Does this look like "Civil war" to you?:
Massacre at Hue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Gadfly]

As I recall, North Vietnam infiltrated and attempted to invade South Vietnam, in violation of international law, an ally we had a treaty obligation to defend.[...]

Our treaty obligation was to defend the nation of Vietnam against aggression by anti-Western powers. Vietnam was not attacked by any foreign power. Vietnam was engaged in a civil war. There were no foreign troops on that soil -- except ours! Technically and legally we had no business interfering in that civil war! And that is the "mistake" Robert MacNamara finally got around to admitting we made in getting involved there.

All I have to say about your declared willingness to go there under arms and the absence of any regret is you're lucky you're not in a wheelchair today, or worse. Because if you were you either would be singing a different tune or you would be considered mentally defective. And I tell you this because as a protester I met several disabled vets who were crippled in Vietnam and I will wager heavily that none of them have your cavalier attitude -- especially the one who had half his face burned off.

What for??

In case you forgot, the RVN was INVADED by North Vietnam. Not only were a lot of the VC actually members of the PAVN (North Vietnamese Army) infiltrated into South Vietnam (a fact they often willingly admitted to, when captured), there were uniformed NVA units operating openly in South Vietnam, in regimental and even division strength, even as their government lied about it to the world. After we pulled out following the Paris Accord, the NVA openly invaded and eventually conquered South Vietnam, something they had pledged NOT to do under the Paris agreement. Vietnam was NOT a civil war; it was an act of naked aggression by one sovereign nation (acting as a proxy for the Soviet Union) against another, and THAT is what we were fighting to stop.

A lot of good men died in Vietnam; some of them were my friends, some of them were my own men, who I could not bring safely home to their families,; ALL of them were my brothers. More have died since; some by their own hand, some from the effects of Agent Orange; but in plain truth, what really killed them was indifference and neglect here at home. Many others will never walk again, are missing arms and legs, or lost their sight. Many of us have battled what we now call PTSD, and all of us will go to our graves carrying the memories of what we saw and had to do. The price of duty and honor is steep. The cost of defending freedom (our own and/or someone else's) is high. You are right on one thing; I AM one of the lucky ones; I made it home with all of my body parts mostly intact; but in the end, all of us, whether our wounds are obvious, or mostly invisible, have had to ask what we did it for.

We did it to protect the people of a little country halfway around the world from a neighborhood bully next door. We did it, because we swore an oath. We did it, because we loved our country, and she called us; and in the end, we did it for each other, because in the worst of it, each other was all we had. You may not understand any of that, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of us would do it again, even knowing what price we would pay; the horror and the heartbreak, the grief, the pain, and loss; the scars, the suffering, and lives forever changed. Regrets? Of course we have regrets; that the cost was so high, that we had to sacrifice so much, that in the end we were not allowed to save the people we fought so hard to help from oppression, tyranny and atrocity; that too often our own countrymen have vilified us, accusing us of things we didn't do. In spite of all that, we have something else, something that has sustained us through the battle over there, and the battle here at home - the knowledge that we stood for what we believed was right, even when it was not easy or popular, that we did our duty with honor, and shamed neither ourselves nor our country, that we gave our all to something bigger and more important than ourselves. That is something to be proud of, and all the lies and all the hate in the world can never take it from us.

 

[9thIDdoc]

[...]Now since I know you were around back then, I'm going to ask you once again where in Vietnam you served; because unless you were there, you only THINK you know what Vietnam was about! I do not believe you would be quite so dismissive of opinions from those who were, had you seen, heard, and smelled the results of the atrocities the VC and NVA communists committed against their own people.[...]

There rarely is a time when similar atrocities arent being committed somewhere in the world, such as Darfur for one example. Do you believe we should serve as cops of the world and intervene?

Gadfly is correct.

I really don't claim to know if we should have made a commitment to S. Vietnam or not but, once made, failing to honor it dishonored our Nation and the troops who fought there.

 

[High_Gravity]

[...]Now since I know you were around back then, I'm going to ask you once again where in Vietnam you served; because unless you were there, you only THINK you know what Vietnam was about! I do not believe you would be quite so dismissive of opinions from those who were, had you seen, heard, and smelled the results of the atrocities the VC and NVA communists committed against their own people.[...]

There rarely is a time when similar atrocities arent being committed somewhere in the world, such as Darfur for one example. Do you believe we should serve as cops of the world and intervene?

The way I feel now I would rather our troops be in Darfur instead of Afghanistan, at least the people there would want our help instead of shooting us in the back.

 

[MikeK]

[...]Now since I know you were around back then, I'm going to ask you once again where in Vietnam you served; because unless you were there, you only THINK you know what Vietnam was about! I do not believe you would be quite so dismissive of opinions from those who were, had you seen, heard, and smelled the results of the atrocities the VC and NVA communists committed against their own people.[...]

There rarely is a time when similar atrocities arent being committed somewhere in the world, such as Darfur for one example. Do you believe we should serve as cops of the world and intervene?

Gadfly is correct.

I really don't claim to know if we should have made a commitment to S. Vietnam or not but, once made, failing to honor it dishonored our Nation and the troops who fought there.

Like we didn't dishonor our Nation by eventually turning tail as we did? And please don't disregard the fact that the alternative was pursuit into Cambodia which would have triggered a full-scale hot war with China and the Soviet Union. So that idea is just thoughtless nonsense.

The whole thing could have been avoided by not making the smart-ass "mistake" of introducing troops in the first place. More competent and thoughtful government leadership would have weighed that potential instead of performing with a "Custer" mentality. Evidently Russia and China were smart enough to foresee the inevitable outcome -- which is why they, unlike we, did not introduce troops and commit themselves to the kind of debacle you, your comrades and your Nation were forced to endure. All because of an easily avoidable "mistake."

Like the "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan. The sad thing is as long as there are Americans who refuse to acknowledge the reality of these unnecessary military adventures and call them what they are instead of trying to portray them as glorious and heroically defensive "wars" it will continue. There will be more Vietnams, more Iraqs. Because the politicians who commit us to them know they have nothing to worry about. They can commit us to wasteful horrors like Vietnam, their sponsors in the Military Industrial Complex will rain money on them, and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima.

It's time you wised up.

 

[High_Gravity]

There rarely is a time when similar atrocities arent being committed somewhere in the world, such as Darfur for one example. Do you believe we should serve as cops of the world and intervene?

Gadfly is correct.

I really don't claim to know if we should have made a commitment to S. Vietnam or not but, once made, failing to honor it dishonored our Nation and the troops who fought there.

Like we didn't dishonor our Nation by eventually turning tail as we did? And please don't disregard the fact that the alternative was pursuit into Cambodia which would have triggered a full-scale hot war with China and the Soviet Union. So that idea is just thoughtless nonsense.

The whole thing could have been avoided by not making the smart-ass "mistake" of introducing troops in the first place. More competent and thoughtful government leadership would have weighed that potential instead of performing with a "Custer" mentality. Evidently Russia and China were smart enough to foresee the inevitable outcome -- which is why they, unlike we, did not introduce troops and commit themselves to the kind of debacle you, your comrades and your Nation were forced to endure. All because of an easily avoidable "mistake."

Like the "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan. The sad thing is as long as there are Americans who refuse to acknowledge the reality of these unnecessary military adventures and call them what they are instead of trying to portray them as glorious and heroically defensive "wars" it will continue. There will be more Vietnams, more Iraqs. Because the politicians who commit us to them know they have nothing to worry about. They can commit us to wasteful horrors like Vietnam, their sponsors in the Military Industrial Complex will rain money on them, and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima.

It's time you wised up.

You honestly think going into Afghanistan was a bad idea? granted I agree the way the war is going right now is totally fucked but after 9/11 we had every right to go in there.

 

[there4eyeM]

Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

 

[High_Gravity]

Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[MikeK]

In case you forgot, the RVN was INVADED by North Vietnam. Not only were a lot of the VC actually members of the PAVN (North Vietnamese Army) infiltrated into South Vietnam (a fact they often willingly admitted to, when captured), there were uniformed NVA units operating openly in South Vietnam, in regimental and even division strength, even as their government lied about it to the world. After we pulled out following the Paris Accord, the NVA openly invaded and eventually conquered South Vietnam, something they had pledged NOT to do under the Paris agreement. Vietnam was NOT a civil war; it was an act of naked aggression by one sovereign nation (acting as a proxy for the Soviet Union) against another, and THAT is what we were fighting to stop.

[...]

You are still talking about Vietnamese fighting Vietnamese on Vietnam's soil! Regardless of the motivation that was a civil war! Which we had no business interfering with. While the Russians and Chinese were supporting the RVN they were smart enough to not commit troops. We weren't smart enough -- which is the "mistake" MacNamara talks about.

Like, "Oops."

Consider that today's Taliban were yesterday's Mujihadeen, whom we supported as their "proxy" in their conflict with the Soviets. We gave them arms and money but we did not introduce troops. That is the way to conduct "proxy" participation in an armed conflict. When you introduce troops it is no longer proxy. It is direct and active armed engagement.

Washington fucked up, badly, and you and others were badly and unnecessarily misused. I understand that is a hard reality to deal with. But don't you think it's time you started telling today's generation the truth about your ordeal and why it happened. We need to educate those Americans who still believe what you and your comrades endured in Vietnam was in defense of America.

That is wrongful and potentially destructive thinking. America was not under attack! And we are not Rome.

 

[MikeK]

Gadfly is correct.

I really don't claim to know if we should have made a commitment to S. Vietnam or not but, once made, failing to honor it dishonored our Nation and the troops who fought there.

Like we didn't dishonor our Nation by eventually turning tail as we did? And please don't disregard the fact that the alternative was pursuit into Cambodia which would have triggered a full-scale hot war with China and the Soviet Union. So that idea is just thoughtless nonsense.

The whole thing could have been avoided by not making the smart-ass "mistake" of introducing troops in the first place. More competent and thoughtful government leadership would have weighed that potential instead of performing with a "Custer" mentality. Evidently Russia and China were smart enough to foresee the inevitable outcome -- which is why they, unlike we, did not introduce troops and commit themselves to the kind of debacle you, your comrades and your Nation were forced to endure. All because of an easily avoidable "mistake."

Like the "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan. The sad thing is as long as there are Americans who refuse to acknowledge the reality of these unnecessary military adventures and call them what they are instead of trying to portray them as glorious and heroically defensive "wars" it will continue. There will be more Vietnams, more Iraqs. Because the politicians who commit us to them know they have nothing to worry about. They can commit us to wasteful horrors like Vietnam, their sponsors in the Military Industrial Complex will rain money on them, and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima.

It's time you wised up.

You honestly think going into Afghanistan was a bad idea? granted I agree the way the war is going right now is totally fucked but after 9/11 we had every right to go in there.

Think about what you just said: We had a right to get totally fucked. And we did! After watching the Soviets get totally fucked we jumped right in and did the same -- and with some of the weapons we gave the Mujihadeen, who are now the Taliban.

It would have been better to do what Obama finally did instead of sending in troops to suffer and die there. For what?

 

[High_Gravity]

Like we didn't dishonor our Nation by eventually turning tail as we did? And please don't disregard the fact that the alternative was pursuit into Cambodia which would have triggered a full-scale hot war with China and the Soviet Union. So that idea is just thoughtless nonsense.

The whole thing could have been avoided by not making the smart-ass "mistake" of introducing troops in the first place. More competent and thoughtful government leadership would have weighed that potential instead of performing with a "Custer" mentality. Evidently Russia and China were smart enough to foresee the inevitable outcome -- which is why they, unlike we, did not introduce troops and commit themselves to the kind of debacle you, your comrades and your Nation were forced to endure. All because of an easily avoidable "mistake."

Like the "mistakes" in Iraq and Afghanistan. The sad thing is as long as there are Americans who refuse to acknowledge the reality of these unnecessary military adventures and call them what they are instead of trying to portray them as glorious and heroically defensive "wars" it will continue. There will be more Vietnams, more Iraqs. Because the politicians who commit us to them know they have nothing to worry about. They can commit us to wasteful horrors like Vietnam, their sponsors in the Military Industrial Complex will rain money on them, and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima.

It's time you wised up.

You honestly think going into Afghanistan was a bad idea? granted I agree the way the war is going right now is totally fucked but after 9/11 we had every right to go in there.

Think about what you just said: We had a right to get totally fucked. And we did! After watching the Soviets get totally fucked we jumped right in and did the same -- and with some of the weapons we gave the Mujihadeen, who are now the Taliban.

It would have been better to do what Obama finally did instead of sending in troops to suffer and die there. For what?

Not the same thing, attacks were launched against the United States by groups who were trained and planned in Afghanistan, we had to do something. You just said the only reason to invade a country is if we were attacked, well we were, what were we supposed to do?

 

[there4eyeM]

The US was supposed to act like a super power, not like a frustrated little martinet.

 

[High_Gravity]

The US was supposed to act like a super power, not like a frustrated little martinet.

Ok I'll bite, what were we supposed to do?

 

[there4eyeM]

Read Machiavelli.

A great power shows restraint.
Military power is much more intimidating before it is applied.
Nothing is worse than involving your troops on the ground where they serve as targets for your enemy in a situation where they cannot fight back without antagonizing the indigenous population.
No one has tamed Afghanistan in a great period of time and it was unrealistic to think the US could with the resources it was prepared to employ.
Encirclement, containment and precise interdiction would have gained us more success, more friends, fewer enemies, less cost and above all fewer deaths!

 

[MikeK]

You honestly think going into Afghanistan was a bad idea? granted I agree the way the war is going right now is totally fucked but after 9/11 we had every right to go in there.

Think about what you just said: We had a right to get totally fucked. And we did! After watching the Soviets get totally fucked we jumped right in and did the same -- and with some of the weapons we gave the Mujihadeen, who are now the Taliban.

It would have been better to do what Obama finally did instead of sending in troops to suffer and die there. For what?

Not the same thing, attacks were launched against the United States by groups who were trained and planned in Afghanistan, we had to do something. You just said the only reason to invade a country is if we were attacked, well we were, what were we supposed to do?

The 9/11 attack was planned right here in the U.S. where the nineteen shahids who carried out the attack, none of whom were Afghan, lived for more than a year and some attended flight schools here. Fifteen of those shahids were Saudi -- as was Usama bin Laden? So invading Afghanistan was redundant, unnecessary, and plainly unwise. One more "mistake."

What should have been done in response to 9/11 is exactly what Obama has done. Highly skilled stealth operations. Drone attacks. In Afghanistan. In Pakistan. In Saudi Arabia. Egypt. Libya. Wherever the targets may be hiding. Find out where they are, drop a Seal Team in at 3AM. Hit them with a drone. Train and pay internal assassins to deliver heads to us. We have the capabilities to do all those things. By now they'd all be nervous wrecks and we could have done more damage to Al Qaeda than we've done with the costly and destructive, full-scale invasions and occupations.

But the Military Industrial Complex wouldn't have made as much money. Keep in mind that every bullet fired in Iraq and Afghanistan puts a dollar in somebody's pocket. And a lot of Washington folks get a piece of that action.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"...and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmNKspKUaTQ]Johnny Cash The Ballad of Ira Hayes - YouTube[/ame]

I'll pass, thank you. Are you trying to imply you have any appriciation for any American troops?

 

[9thIDdoc]

"Like we didn't dishonor our Nation by eventually turning tail as we did?"

Exactly my point. And that decision was heavily influenced by protestors such as yourself.

"You are still talking about Vietnamese fighting Vietnamese on Vietnam's soil! Regardless of the motivation that was a civil war!"

Still wrong. South Vietnam was an independent nation formally recognized as such by many nations including the US. What part of that do you have a problem understanding?

"And please don't disregard the fact that the alternative was pursuit into Cambodia which would have triggered a full-scale hot war with China and the Soviet Union. So that idea is just thoughtless nonsense."

Wrong again (at least you're consistent).
Me and some of my closest friends during our "vacasion" in Cambodia May '70 (it was in all the papers):

And, no, neither the USSR nor the PRC came out to play any more than what the already were.

 

[whitehall]

LBJ created the fake "Tonkin Gulf Crisis". We sent a fleet to the Tonkin Gulf and the Navy saw little in the way that indicated aggression but Troops were sent to the mainland. LBJ set the rules so that the US would win every battle and still lose the war. Ironically after the TET victory the US actually defeated the VC but Walter Cronkite rushed to VietNam, put on a flack vest and a helmet and pretended he was under fire and pronounced the US hard won Tet victory to be a stalemate. LBJ quit the freaking war on National TV when he tearfully told Americans he would not run for another term and the VC regained the offensive. Nixon never had a chance. Anarchists like Bill Ayers were on the loose and John Kerry and Jane Fonda were trying to incorporate civil unrest with the anti-war movement with the fake "winter soldiers" craziness.

 

[MikeK]

"...and guys like you will be strutting around like the Marines who survived Iwo Jima."

Johnny Cash The Ballad of Ira Hayes - YouTube

I'll pass, thank you. Are you trying to imply you have any appriciation for any American troops?

I believe you misunderstood what I wrote and it's my fault for not making it more clear. What I should have said is ". . . strutting around as if you were Marines who survived Iwo Jima."

I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for those, including my own family members, who defended us in WW-II because we could easily have been invaded and occupied or destroyed were it not for their bravery and sacrifice. Appreciation is an inadequate word to express what I felt and continue to feel for those who served this Nation in its time of desperate need.

I was raised during a time when the draft was active and military service was considered an obligation for all able-bodied young men. I performed my obligation, as did millions of others, and no one owes me any thanks or gratitude. As I've already stated, I consider myself very lucky to have been discharged before the Vietnam debacle was commenced because it was an entirely unnecessary, wasteful, and tragic misuse of our military resources, as was the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Those military adventures reflect the hubris and essential incompetence of certain officials in our government who should be held to account.

As for those military personnel who were not as lucky as I was, they have my sincere sympathy for their misfortune.