When I was in my late teens sweating out Nam and the draft

[eots]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKX6luiMINQ]Bush Jokes about WMD - YouTube[/ame]

 

[del]

Ginscpy you were too much of a yellow belly pussy ass bitch to answer the call for Nam, so what makes you think you would have enlisted in WW2?

I recently met with a Tail Gunner who flew with my Grandfather in WWII. He stayed in the military after the war and retired in 1966 because, as he said: "I didn't like the way Vietnam was shaping up". He's also against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think any of US would call HIM a pussy for doing that.

one of my best friend's father's enlisted in the marines in 1942 and retired in '67 because he thought nam was bullshit.

you don't run into a lot of pussies who make master gunner.

 

[The Gadfly]

The ONLY "peace with honor", is TOTAL VICTORY! Nothing less is acceptable, or ever should be! Damn all stupid ass political rules of engagement, and damn civilian-style morality-kill the enemy until he cries "Uncle" or until there are no more of him left to kill!

What you've said is justifiable only if the enemy you seek to destroy is the aggressor. But, unfortunately, regrettably, and tragically, we were the aggressor in Vietnam. We went there. They didn't come here. And we had no good reason for going there.

According to Robert MacNamara, Vietnam was a "mistake." According to me it was a goddam crime!

As I recall, North Vietnam infiltrated and attempted to invade South Vietnam, in violation of international law, an ally we had a treaty obligation to defend. I make ZERO apologies for doing so . I joined the army to fight communist aggression whenever my country called on me to do so; I was ready to jump into Cuba with my unit in October of 1962, and I would gladly have done so. My obligation was up, and I could have sat out Vietnam; I chose to accept a commission, knowing full well I'd likely be sent to Vietnam.

I've read Kovic's book and seen the movie; I was NOT impressed with either his attitude nor his reasoning. I knew what I was doing, I am not the least bit apologetic for doing it, and I would do it again. My only regret is that we were not given the ROE, the orders, the number of troops, and sufficient commitment from our government and the American people to gain total victory. Those mistakes, courtesy of a spineless political leadership, the American Left, and a bunch of self-serving "journalists" more concerned with what would sell than with telling the truth, cost us the battlefield victory we DID win. I can truthfully say we did more with less, that any American force before or since, and I know that my men and I did our part of it without doing anything either we or the American people need to be ashamed of. All the scorn and derision, and all the lies and half-truths, from the Left , here and abroad, over the years, will not change that one iota.

Kovic or anyone else, may be a "victim", if he so chooses; I do not so choose. I was not a victim; I was a soldier. I followed my orders, and my ideals; I did my best, for a cause I believed was right, and had I been able, I'd have gone back for a second tour. Most of us who served in Vietnam didn't quit; we owed it to those who died, (including your cousin) to fight to win, and we did all we could. Unfortunately, the folks living a comfortable life back home quit on us. I'm ashamed of them, and those veterans who turned their backs on their brothers, but I'm not ashamed of the rest of us who fought in Vietnam, and never will be.

 

[The Gadfly]

Nixon lost it, if that's what you mean by "put an end to it". Nixon was elected on his promise to end the war in Vietnam with honor ("I have a plan"; funny, Romney uses the same phrase with the same lack of substance as did Nixon). Nixon was elected in 1968 and took office in January 1969.

The war ended on April 30, 1975 without honor when Saigon fell. If he had a plan, it sure as hell didn't work.

The ONLY "peace with honor", is TOTAL VICTORY! Nothing less is acceptable, or ever should be! Damn all stupid ass political rules of engagement, and damn civilian-style morality-kill the enemy until he cries "Uncle" or until there are no more of him left to kill!

Get counseling!

For what? Telling the truth? It's war, not some goddamned sporting event!

 

[The Gadfly]

Marines, yes, Army, no. Nam was no joke, so what is your point. After 9-11 I watched several of our employees enlist, and I thank God every day that they returned and pray for those families whose children paid the ultimate price to insure our country remained free.

they bought the lie..

No, they did their duty as they saw it; something you wouldn't understand.

 

[The Gadfly]

What a wall-eyed pile of communist sheep dung! There is exactly NO diference in the sacrifice made by troops in WWII and in wars since or before then and only a major sleeze would suggest otherwise. The soldier fights when and where directed by military commanders under direction of a government elected by the American People. If Vietnam or other wars wasn't as warm and fuzzy enough to suite your taste you should take it up with the American People and the government they elected instead of the poor saps who just tried to do their duty.

When I joined the Marine Corps in 1956 I firmly believed government would not deploy me except if necessary for direct defense of the Nation. At that time I was sufficiently impressionable to believe the "police action" in Korea had been unavoidably necessary. I also believed that "communism" was a real threat to America. Needless to mention, at that time neither I nor the vast majority of other ordinary Americans had the slightest idea of what communism is or why it should be considered a threat to us.

I was separated from the Corps in 1960 and by the time Vietnam heated up my inactive reserve obligation was completed and they couldn't touch me -- for which I considered myself very myself lucky. Because by then I was becoming educated and learning to exercise abstract reasoning, which is something you need to do.

My first cousin, Thomas, wasn't so lucky. He was drafted, sent to Vietnam and killed five weeks after arriving there. I wish I could say his life was sacrificed in defense of America but as (I think) we both know, that isn't true. The fact is Tommy's life, along with the other 58,000 lives lost in Vietnam was wasted. There was no good reason for him, or you, or any other American soldier or Marine to be sent to Vietnam. And if you don't believe that I suggest you educate yourself by reading Robert MacNamara's book, The Fog of War, in which he attempts to justify his incompetent, egotistical actions as Secretary of Defense while admitting the whole thing was a big mistake!

A "mistake."

I wonder if you've read Ron Kovic's book, Born on The Fourth of July, or at least seen the movie. Kovic was a Marine who was paralyzed in Vietnam and he doesn't share your sense of Gung-Ho idealism. Instead, he tells it like it is -- and in doing so he makes the very important point that Americans should not tolerate the kind of deception (Tonkin Gulf) that led to our involvement in an unnecessary military engagement. And if there were more Ron Kovics and fewer chest-pounding GI-Joes like you it is unlikely that Bush could have gotten away with his "weapons of mass destruction" bullshit that added 5,800 more of our sons and brothers lives to the waste.

The fact that there was kill-or-be-killed fighting going on in Vietnam and that you were involved in it is no reason for me or any other American to thank you for it. Because to do so would indirectly be thanking self-serving politicians like MacNamara for committing you to it. Instead of boasting about being in that fight and expecting to be celebrated for it you should be raising hell about it and telling your fellow citizens why there should have been investigations and prosecutions instead of celebrations.

If you were drafted to Vietnam you were screwed. You weren't as lucky as I was and for that you have my sincere sympathy. But if you, like Ron Kovic, enlisted to go to Vietnam, you, like Ron Kovic, were misled into screwing yourself. You still have my sympathy but let's stop trying to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear. You were placed in harm's way by an incompetent government and the only Americans who benefited from your ordeal are the profiteers, the Military Industrial Complex.

The difference between WW-II and Vietnam is the U.S. was attacked by the Japanese Empire, which, along with its ally, the Third Reich of Germany, were committed to invading and occupying or destroying us in WW-II. My father and his two brothers, along with millions of other Americans, put their lives on the line to defend this Country against those two very powerful, capable, and menacing military forces. But North Vietnam did absolutely nothing to us, nor was North Vietnam capable of harming us in any way. We invaded them with absolutely no provocation. In fact, according to the very author of that costly debacle, it was a "mistake."

So, once again, it is a damn shame that you, and others like you, were exposed to that "mistake." But I strongly suggest you make an effort to educate yourself about the facts concerning the Vietnam debacle and try to convince others why it would be a good idea to prosecute self-serving sonsabitches like George W. Bush for deliberately involving this Nation in unnecessary military engagements.

I will sincerely thank you for doing that!

Educate myself about Vietnam? I had thirteen months and seventeen days in-country to do that. and the service ribbons and the CIB on my old uniform are my "degree". That's ground truth, not what some reporter said, not Robert McNamara's self-serving bullshit, not some bit of propaganda. I got all the education I need about the NVA and the VC by fighting the sonsofbitches!

I don't want your pity, I don't want your lectures, I don't need or want any parades or celebrations, hell, I don't even want your gratitude. I don't even "want my honor back", because I know I never lost it in the first place, and it is not yours to take.

 

[MikeK]

Maybe yours. I'd like to go back and finish the job like we should have in the first place.

Why?

Short answer: to kill as many of the murdering, torturing, baby-killing communist scum I was sent there to kill, as was needed to prevent North Vietnam from overrunning South Vietnam and subsequently executing and brutalizing hundred of thousands of South Vietnamese in their "re-education camps", beat North Vietnamese aggression into total submission, free ALL our POW's, and try, convict and execute the communist sonsobitches who tortured and executed them. The ONLY "good" communists are DEAD communists! I hated the VC and the NVA, and still do. Anyone who wants to go back and shake hands with them now, can do so - I'll be damned if I ever will! We beat them on the battlefield, and my only regret is that we were not allowed to go all the way to Hanoi and FINISH them!

First, the communist threat to America was a gimmick contrived by a drug-addicted political opportunist, Senator Joseph McCarthy, in the 1950s, and which has long since been effectively debunked. The simple fact is any attempt to convert American democracy to communism would have about as much chance for success as would a tanning salon in West Africa.

If you will do a bit of research you'll find the only places where communism has ever managed to gain a foothold is in totally impoverished nations which have been brought to ruin by war or tyranny. As I've said elsewhere in this forum, trying to sell communism to Americans would be analogous to opening a hot-dog stand at a Texas barbecue.

The only Americans who have something to fear from world communism are those corporatists who are engaged in high-level capitalist endeavors around the globe. This category of Americans is always on the make for healthy young men to throw at emerging political uncooperatives like the North Vietnamese, the Iraqis and the Afghans. And unless enough Americans wise up to the con there will be no end to the Vietnams, Iraqs, and Afghanistans.

 

[MikeK]

Educate myself about Vietnam? I had thirteen months and seventeen days in-country to do that. and the service ribbons and the CIB on my old uniform are my "degree". That's ground truth, not what some reporter said, not Robert McNamara's self-serving bullshit, not some bit of propaganda. I got all the education I need about the NVA and the VC by fighting the sonsofbitches!

I don't want your pity, I don't want your lectures, I don't need or want any parades or celebrations, hell, I don't even want your gratitude. I don't even "want my honor back", because I know I never lost it in the first place, and it is not yours to take.

All I have to say to that is I'm sure there were much more constructive and enjoyable things you could have done with those thirteen months. And I'm glad you managed to survive that egregious misuse of your time. Too many others didn't.

 

[del]

Ginscpy you were too much of a yellow belly pussy ass bitch to answer the call for Nam, so what makes you think you would have enlisted in WW2?

Do you think there is a valid comparison between our actions in Vietnam and in WW-II? If so, please explain.

"Our" actions?

When/where did you serve, fudgepacker.

Or have you remained on the sidelines protesting/cheerleading while our brave men and women have served.

Why don't you fucking enlist. Perhaps you'll gain an appreciation for the USA

those sliders aren't gonna flip themselves, fat boy.

chop chop

 

[9thIDdoc]

"When I joined the Marine Corps in 1956 I firmly believed government would not deploy me except if necessary for direct defense of the Nation. At that time I was sufficiently impressionable to believe the "police action" in Korea had been unavoidably necessary. I also believed that "communism" was a real threat to America. Needless to mention, at that time neither I nor the vast majority of other ordinary Americans had the slightest idea of what communism is or why it should be considered a threat to us."

In short, you were clueless. You still are but for some strange reason you've become proud of the depth of your ignorance. I know, you discovered communism; the clouds parted, the heavens opened, and you recieved TRUTH through direct revelation!!! PRAISE...er, whoever. It's just a pity that your TRUTH doesn't match real world fact. Never has. Never will.
The source of your TRUTH was still making the outraged claim that there were NO NVA in S. Vietnam while I was tripping over their bodies trying to evacuate our wounded. But, hey, I suppose you don't need no stinkin facts when you've got the TRUTH.

"My first cousin, Thomas, wasn't so lucky. He was drafted, sent to Vietnam and killed five weeks after arriving there. I wish I could say his life was sacrificed in defense of America but as (I think) we both know, that isn't true."

Bullshit. He may have been your cousin but he was my brother by blood and you piss on his grave every
time you make that idiot claim. And I am less than amused.

 

[MikeK]

"When I joined the Marine Corps in 1956 I firmly believed government would not deploy me except if necessary for direct defense of the Nation. At that time I was sufficiently impressionable to believe the "police action" in Korea had been unavoidably necessary. I also believed that "communism" was a real threat to America. Needless to mention, at that time neither I nor the vast majority of other ordinary Americans had the slightest idea of what communism is or why it should be considered a threat to us."

In short, you were clueless. You still are but for some strange reason you've become proud of the depth of your ignorance. I know, you discovered communism; the clouds parted, the heavens opened, and you recieved TRUTH through direct revelation!!! PRAISE...er, whoever. It's just a pity that your TRUTH doesn't match real world fact. Never has. Never will.
The source of your TRUTH was still making the outraged claim that there were NO NVA in S. Vietnam while I was tripping over their bodies trying to evacuate our wounded. But, hey, I suppose you don't need no stinkin facts when you've got the TRUTH.

"My first cousin, Thomas, wasn't so lucky. He was drafted, sent to Vietnam and killed five weeks after arriving there. I wish I could say his life was sacrificed in defense of America but as (I think) we both know, that isn't true."

Bullshit. He may have been your cousin but he was my brother by blood and you piss on his grave every
time you make that idiot claim. And I am less than amused.

Again, you have my sincere sympathy.

 

[9thIDdoc]

And, again, you can shove your sympathy. Nobody wants or needs it. It would be nice if you had the basic understanding of a mature adult but it is certainly not expected.

 

[Douger]

I always thought of it as LBJs War.

How about so me of that???????????????????????

Nixon came along and put an end to it................

Maybe I would have enlisted the day after Pearl Harbor even if I was 15 - lied about my age

How many lied about theirage to get into nam?

Clearly at least SOME did, because the youngest American casualty was SIXTEEN years old.

Meatheads have been around since the beginning of time.

 

[there4eyeM]

"When I joined the Marine Corps in 1956 I firmly believed government would not deploy me except if necessary for direct defense of the Nation. At that time I was sufficiently impressionable to believe the "police action" in Korea had been unavoidably necessary. I also believed that "communism" was a real threat to America. Needless to mention, at that time neither I nor the vast majority of other ordinary Americans had the slightest idea of what communism is or why it should be considered a threat to us.

I was separated from the Corps in 1960 and by the time Vietnam heated up my inactive reserve obligation was completed and they couldn't touch me -- for which I considered myself very myself lucky. Because by then I was becoming educated and learning to exercise abstract reasoning, which is something you need to do.

My first cousin, Thomas, wasn't so lucky. He was drafted, sent to Vietnam and killed five weeks after arriving there. I wish I could say his life was sacrificed in defense of America but as (I think) we both know, that isn't true. The fact is Tommy's life, along with the other 58,000 lives lost in Vietnam was wasted. There was no good reason for him, or you, or any other American soldier or Marine to be sent to Vietnam. And if you don't believe that I suggest you educate yourself by reading Robert MacNamara's book, The Fog of War, in which he attempts to justify his incompetent, egotistical actions as Secretary of Defense while admitting the whole thing was a big mistake!

A "mistake."

I wonder if you've read Ron Kovic's book, Born on The Fourth of July, or at least seen the movie. Kovic was a Marine who was paralyzed in Vietnam and he doesn't share your sense of Gung-Ho idealism. Instead, he tells it like it is -- and in doing so he makes the very important point that Americans should not tolerate the kind of deception (Tonkin Gulf) that led to our involvement in an unnecessary military engagement. And if there were more Ron Kovics and fewer chest-pounding GI-Joes like you it is unlikely that Bush could have gotten away with his "weapons of mass destruction" bullshit that added 5,800 more of our sons and brothers lives to the waste.

The fact that there was kill-or-be-killed fighting going on in Vietnam and that you were involved in it is no reason for me or any other American to thank you for it. Because to do so would indirectly be thanking self-serving politicians like MacNamara for committing you to it. Instead of boasting about being in that fight and expecting to be celebrated for it you should be raising hell about it and telling your fellow citizens why there should have been investigations and prosecutions instead of celebrations.

If you were drafted to Vietnam you were screwed. You weren't as lucky as I was and for that you have my sincere sympathy. But if you, like Ron Kovic, enlisted to go to Vietnam, you, like Ron Kovic, were misled into screwing yourself. You still have my sympathy but let's stop trying to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear. You were placed in harm's way by an incompetent government and the only Americans who benefited from your ordeal are the profiteers, the Military Industrial Complex.

The difference between WW-II and Vietnam is the U.S. was attacked by the Japanese Empire, which, along with its ally, the Third Reich of Germany, were committed to invading and occupying or destroying us in WW-II. My father and his two brothers, along with millions of other Americans, put their lives on the line to defend this Country against those two very powerful, capable, and menacing military forces. But North Vietnam did absolutely nothing to us, nor was North Vietnam capable of harming us in any way. We invaded them with absolutely no provocation. In fact, according to the very author of that costly debacle, it was a "mistake."

So, once again, it is a damn shame that you, and others like you, were exposed to that "mistake." But I strongly suggest you make an effort to educate yourself about the facts concerning the Vietnam debacle and try to convince others why it would be a good idea to prosecute self-serving sonsabitches like George W. Bush for deliberately involving this Nation in unnecessary military engagements.

I will sincerely thank you for doing that!"


Eloquent and much-needed commentary. Blood-and-guts talk is cheap. No WWII veterans I heard talked about their war or how manly they were to serve, kill and watch their buddies die. It is enough to make one think that those who do and are so 'gung-ho' to kill that they will blindly, and even unconstitutionally, kill and destroy are less than human.

 

[theliq]

My husband enlisted in the Marines when he was 17....had to get his parents permission.
That wasn't easy especially since they knew right after basic he was heading for Nam.
I'm sure he wasn't the only young person that did the same..................

How did he fair,Carol??????well I hope

 

[there4eyeM]

Everyone who went to Vietnam was a casualty.

 

[eots]

Originally Posted by Caroljo
My husband enlisted in the Marines when he was 17....had to get his parents permission.That wasn't easy especially since they knew right after basic he was heading for Nam.I'm sure he wasn't the only young person that did the same..................

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC9pc4U40sI]DONOVAN - The Universal Soldier - YouTube[/ame]

 

[there4eyeM]

Were the decisions at Nuremberg correct or not?

 

[The Gadfly]

Everyone who went to Vietnam was a casualty.

I could say the same about ANY soldier in ANY war. Some get more damaged than others, but no one, and I mean NO ONE, EVER walks away from combat completely unscathed. That didn't happen in WW II, Korea, or Vietnam, and it isn't happening now, either.

Now since I know you were around back then, I'm going to ask you once again where in Vietnam you served; because unless you were there, you only THINK you know what Vietnam was about! I do not believe you would be quite so dismissive of opinions from those who were, had you seen, heard, and smelled the results of the atrocities the VC and NVA communists committed against their own people. I don't believe you would twist anyone else's words into "talking about...how manly they were to serve, kill and watch their buddies die". No Vietnam vet here has said anything of the kind. We did our duty, the best we could; yes, we killed the enemy, and often showed him no mercy; and yes, we fought to win, because that was the job we were sent there to do. We followed our orders, whether we liked them or not, whether we agreed with them or not, because duty demanded that we do so. I answered to my elected/appointed superiors, civilian and military, in accordance with my oath, but I'll be damned if I feel any obligation to answer to any permanent civilian who fancies himself our "moral superior" because he sat here stateside enjoying civilian life as usual while we were pouring our blood, sweat and tears all over the jungles, elephant grass and rice fields of Vietnam. No such person has any right to judge us, much less tell us how to feel about what we did! I did my duty, I make no apologies for doing it, and if that makes me "less then human" in your sight, I can't say I'm going to lose any sleep over that.

 

[MikeK]

As I recall, North Vietnam infiltrated and attempted to invade South Vietnam, in violation of international law, an ally we had a treaty obligation to defend.[...]

Our treaty obligation was to defend the nation of Vietnam against aggression by anti-Western powers. Vietnam was not attacked by any foreign power. Vietnam was engaged in a civil war. There were no foreign troops on that soil -- except ours! Technically and legally we had no business interfering in that civil war! And that is the "mistake" Robert MacNamara finally got around to admitting we made in getting involved there.

All I have to say about your declared willingness to go there under arms and the absence of any regret is you're lucky you're not in a wheelchair today, or worse. Because if you were you either would be singing a different tune or you would be considered mentally defective. And I tell you this because as a protester I met several disabled vets who were crippled in Vietnam and I will wager heavily that none of them have your cavalier attitude -- especially the one who had half his face burned off.

What for??