When did this nation start going to shit? November 6, 1986...that's when.

[Mac1958]

My guess is that the turn happened when some took Reagan's "...government is the problem..." as gospel.

That's the best thing that happened to America. The worst thing is that they didn't go through with it, but in fact did the exact opposite.

The danger when you go after a philosophy as pure as libertarianism - and let's face it, that's what this is - is that it becomes a zero-sum battle. All or nothing. Win or lose. Seems to me it would be far smarter to move in a desired direction incrementally, proving yourself along the way, winning long-term converts.

When it becomes a zero-sum battle like this, we get what we're seeing, wild swings back and forth that create little of substance.
.

And why would it become a zero sum game?

I guess your idea is just to stand-by as the government butt rapes us then... what a great plan!

I wonder, does this non-pure philosophy of yours apply to other things also. Maybe we should increase the amount of murders we have, I think there is a danger that we might have a zero sum game otherwise. We need a moderate amount of rapes and murders, yes!

Most things in life exist on a continuum. I really want to believe that you understand that.

If you really think you're going to "win" and move this country to pure libertarianism, great.
.

Nice observation. But some things in life, do not exist in a continuum. Heck, the computer you are typing into right now is basically encoded into 0s and 1s, binary, discrete.

I don't know where you got that I am a libertarian, in fact, that bunch is completely incapable of winning anything. They have even less clue than the conservatives. Thinking that people respond to complicated arguments is maddening stupidity. They won't win a thing, ever, that I can tell with 100% binary accuracy.

Okay, then explain your goal for the role of our government. What are you fighting for?
.

 

[Norman]

That's the best thing that happened to America. The worst thing is that they didn't go through with it, but in fact did the exact opposite.

The danger when you go after a philosophy as pure as libertarianism - and let's face it, that's what this is - is that it becomes a zero-sum battle. All or nothing. Win or lose. Seems to me it would be far smarter to move in a desired direction incrementally, proving yourself along the way, winning long-term converts.

When it becomes a zero-sum battle like this, we get what we're seeing, wild swings back and forth that create little of substance.
.

And why would it become a zero sum game?

I guess your idea is just to stand-by as the government butt rapes us then... what a great plan!

I wonder, does this non-pure philosophy of yours apply to other things also. Maybe we should increase the amount of murders we have, I think there is a danger that we might have a zero sum game otherwise. We need a moderate amount of rapes and murders, yes!

Most things in life exist on a continuum. I really want to believe that you understand that.

If you really think you're going to "win" and move this country to pure libertarianism, great.
.

Nice observation. But some things in life, do not exist in a continuum. Heck, the computer you are typing into right now is basically encoded into 0s and 1s, binary, discrete.

I don't know where you got that I am a libertarian, in fact, that bunch is completely incapable of winning anything. They have even less clue than the conservatives. Thinking that people respond to complicated arguments is maddening stupidity. They won't win a thing, ever, that I can tell with 100% binary accuracy.

Okay, then explain your goal for the role of our government. What are you fighting for?
.

My goal would be to reduce the government relative to one's wallet, back to the size it was 100 years ago.

Or in other words, make America great again.

Admittedly a difficult goal given that women have the vote today, and have demonstrated that they vote to take the money of the men with it. It's not the same game it was 100 years ago, where everyone automatically voted for small government.

 

[TheDude]

The day Reagan signed the Amnesty Bill and threw 3.5 million illegals on the backs of good quality, hard working Americans.
This was probably the single most devastating blow the Republican Party has ever sustained.
The GOP will spend the next century trying to undue what Reagan did with one quick swipe of the pen.

Sure right, and the distribution of wealth is Reagan's fault too.

How come liberals blame Reagan for making changes thirty years ago, which is another way of saying those who came after are too incompetent to make changes in a changed world?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

My guess is that the turn happened when some took Reagan's "...government is the problem..." as gospel.

By all means show us where government is doing a good job, outside of our military. Love to hear your examples.

By your standards, absolutely nowhere. The federal bureaucracy will always be relatively inefficient and uneven. For many, however, the positive can outweigh the negative.
.

Holy crap relatively inefficient??? Good grief this year alone the federal government lost over $400 billion dollars to waste and fraud, that's over 10% of the entire federal budget. That's 3 times the cost of the Trump tax cuts. And you call that relatively inefficient???

I led you right into the buzz saw.

Do you have the source for this claim and a breakdown of where the waste and fraud is taking place?

 

[Mac1958]

The danger when you go after a philosophy as pure as libertarianism - and let's face it, that's what this is - is that it becomes a zero-sum battle. All or nothing. Win or lose. Seems to me it would be far smarter to move in a desired direction incrementally, proving yourself along the way, winning long-term converts.

When it becomes a zero-sum battle like this, we get what we're seeing, wild swings back and forth that create little of substance.
.

And why would it become a zero sum game?

I guess your idea is just to stand-by as the government butt rapes us then... what a great plan!

I wonder, does this non-pure philosophy of yours apply to other things also. Maybe we should increase the amount of murders we have, I think there is a danger that we might have a zero sum game otherwise. We need a moderate amount of rapes and murders, yes!

Most things in life exist on a continuum. I really want to believe that you understand that.

If you really think you're going to "win" and move this country to pure libertarianism, great.
.

Nice observation. But some things in life, do not exist in a continuum. Heck, the computer you are typing into right now is basically encoded into 0s and 1s, binary, discrete.

I don't know where you got that I am a libertarian, in fact, that bunch is completely incapable of winning anything. They have even less clue than the conservatives. Thinking that people respond to complicated arguments is maddening stupidity. They won't win a thing, ever, that I can tell with 100% binary accuracy.

Okay, then explain your goal for the role of our government. What are you fighting for?
.

My goal would be to reduce the government relative to one's wallet, back to the size it was 100 years ago.

Or in other words, make America great again.

Admittedly a difficult goal given that women have the vote today, and have demonstrated that they vote to take the money of the men with it. It's not the same game it was 100 years ago, where everyone automatically voted for small government.

Okay, then a reduction means that the movement would lie along a continuum. That was my point.

So again, when it is presented as a zero sum game, it looks like the goal is zero government. "Government is the problem". That's just too easy to poke holes into, especially in the arena of ideas, where everyone is jockeying for advantage.

That's why it just seems smarter to me to go for incremental wins, prove yourself and your ideology, and gain converts that are long-lasting.
.

 

[Thinker101]

My guess is that the turn happened when some took Reagan's "...government is the problem..." as gospel.

By all means show us where government is doing a good job, outside of our military. Love to hear your examples.

By your standards, absolutely nowhere. The federal bureaucracy will always be relatively inefficient and uneven. For many, however, the positive can outweigh the negative.
.

Holy crap relatively inefficient??? Good grief this year alone the federal government lost over $400 billion dollars to waste and fraud, that's over 10% of the entire federal budget. That's 3 times the cost of the Trump tax cuts. And you call that relatively inefficient???

I led you right into the buzz saw.

Do you have the source for this claim and a breakdown of where the waste and fraud is taking place?

Here is a few areas.
Wasteful Spending Archives - Judicial Watch

 

[Tax Man]

The day Reagan signed the Amnesty Bill and threw 3.5 million illegals on the backs of good quality, hard working Americans.
This was probably the single most devastating blow the Republican Party has ever sustained.
The GOP will spend the next century trying to undue what Reagan did with one quick swipe of the pen.

In my mind it was when ray Goon got elected. Everything he did was geared for the destruction of America.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

My guess is that the turn happened when some took Reagan's "...government is the problem..." as gospel.

By all means show us where government is doing a good job, outside of our military. Love to hear your examples.

By your standards, absolutely nowhere. The federal bureaucracy will always be relatively inefficient and uneven. For many, however, the positive can outweigh the negative.
.

Holy crap relatively inefficient??? Good grief this year alone the federal government lost over $400 billion dollars to waste and fraud, that's over 10% of the entire federal budget. That's 3 times the cost of the Trump tax cuts. And you call that relatively inefficient???

I led you right into the buzz saw.

Do you have the source for this claim and a breakdown of where the waste and fraud is taking place?

Here is a few areas.
Wasteful Spending Archives - Judicial Watch

Thanks for the link. Very informative.

 

[Marion Morrison]

The day Reagan signed the Amnesty Bill and threw 3.5 million illegals on the backs of good quality, hard working Americans.
This was probably the single most devastating blow the Republican Party has ever sustained.
The GOP will spend the next century trying to undue what Reagan did with one quick swipe of the pen.

The day Reagan signed the Amnesty Bill and threw 3.5 million illegals on the backs of good quality, hard working Americans.
This was probably the single most devastating blow the Republican Party has ever sustained.
The GOP will spend the next century trying to undue what Reagan did with one quick swipe of the pen.

Sure right, and the distribution of wealth is Reagan's fault too.

How come liberals blame Reagan for making changes thirty years ago, which is another way of saying those who came after are too incompetent to make changes in a changed world?

The other side of that is that there was supposed to be a fence/wall built in exchange for Reagan granting amnesty.

However, being that the project depended on Congress, it never materialized during Reagan's term.

I don't think Bush built any portion of wall whatsoever, I know Clinton did. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[sartre play]

If we all agree that government is a mess, that our money is mishandled, that the house & senate is mostly run by greedy hacks or down right idiots. why are we fighting each other? how hard would it be to put aside( for a time) the areas that are most difficult to get agreement on. find the things we do have over lap. and force them by our numbers to at least start working for the people who gave them the money and power made by the sweat of our labor