What's wrong with Unions?

[Si modo]

I am not sure why conservatives fear and dislike unions. It seems they operate in a conservative fashion, and continue building America and making it a better place. What's wrong with Unions?

This conservative isn't a fan of corruption. That's why.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Unions do not earn, save and fund the capital going into a business. Their workers retire quicker and faster than management and have better benefit packages than mid and lower level management. Union workers receive overtime pay. Management works off a salary.
If they could receive higher dues from a Republican candidate then they would change loyalties in a second.
Unions are for people that are not confident and intelligent enough to negotiate their pay with the individual skills they have.

Gadawg, this is unfair. You cannot "negotiate with your individual skills" for job security or safe working conditions, etc., if your work is unskilled or semi-skilled. There are unions other than the UAW, yanno.

exactly....but he said he owns a few companies.....thats why he is anti union...his workers want more than minimum wages...

 

[Harry Dresden]

Look at the public Sector unions. Why do you think Federal Government employees make twice as much as their Private sector counter parts. If the Government was a for profit business it would go out of business and a large part of the reason why would be the Unrealistic demands of the Public Sector unions.

Ups guys make around 4-6 bucks an hour more than PO Carriers....what else you got?...

 

[Mr Natural]

Unions are a necessary evil needed to keep businesses from fucking over workers.

 

[Madeline]

I'm not really seeing a need for a union if you have civil service protection. Not every single union should be judged as the same. There are differences in market segment, safety needs, etc.

 

[edthecynic]

Federal Government employees make twice as much as their Private sector counter parts.

Another gullible moron stupid enough to swallow the GOP think tank generated crapaganda.

If you compare the pay for THE SAME JOBS there is little difference. Some private sector jobs pay a little more and some pay a little less. The way the dishonest GOP think tanks generated that deliberately misleading stat was by comparing all jobs combined. In reality there is a very different mix of jobs in the government and private sectors.

Government jobs have more high paying white collar jobs and the private sector has more low paying blue collar jobs, so it is dishonest to compare total jobs between both sectors, which is exactly why CON$ use only that comparison. The only honest way to compare the two sectors is to compare the SAME JOB in one sector to the SAME JOB in the other sector, which dishonest CON$ will never do.

 

[Trajan]

there is nothing wrong with Unions per se'. They were and in some cases a necessary org.

I worked for a fortune 500 co. for 15 years. I got laid off April 09. So, I think I have a pretty good perspective at least as it applies to a public union as I took a job in the gov. 3 months later, performing the same functions etc. I did in my private sector job. I am now in a union, with the defined pension plan, early retirement, Cadillac medical, my job security is pretty much assured, the whole shebang.

However; there is a trade off. Big ones.

As a private industry worker pay raises, bonus's etc. was a yearly event. I was a top performer all the way through. I am proud of that. I literally tripled my salary form the day I started, to what I was laid off with. My lowest raise ever was in a bad year for the co. we all got 2.5%, For 2 years, we got zip. My highest was 18.5%. Along the way I had received several double digit raises, plus we had a bonus system. We had very very good medical there too btw.Life insurance. profit sharing etc. I did however accepting my new job, take a 15K pay cut so to speak. Thats to be expected but looking at where I started at my private co. pay wise and what I am getting now...well, I got a good salary.

In the Union, we just negotiated a 5 year contract where in we all, all, will get 3.5% for 4 year and 4% the last year. ( note* that the economy is in a free-fall and lots of private co's are not giving raises at all and they have lay-offs, don't I know, they had no lay offs in our union.)


Merit does not count. I can perform on the same level I did in my past co. and it doesn't matter, I top out at out 3.5%.

There are no bonus's, there are no spot awards or recognition. There is no meritocracy.

The work environment is okay. The building work in is only 3 years old. The digs are pretty good.

Heres were we go off the rails- there is little to no, uhm, urgency. There is little to no discipline, fiscal or otherwise.

We order and buy stuff at will. I can personally order anything at anytime up to $500.00, in one purchase order. I can create as many PO's as I want. No one checks me, I could be taking stuff home if I wanted too, ordering ti ngs that I really don't need etc.

At my old private co. this would not fly for a minute. My manager would get a monthly print out and I had to get permission first before I could order anything. They are supposed to have an audit system here, but in 15 months I have ben here so far, I have not seen it.

Getting something done requires the effort and pateince of Sisyphus.

Roll that rock up the hill and sometimes you feel like Prometheus getting your liver pecked out, the territoriality and hierarchical games as to who gets to do what , whatgets done or not, are off the wall. It stops work, prevents work, adds so much time and so much more effort to the process, its got to be seen to be believed, it builds in costs automatically that is/are astronomical. I cannot stress this enough.

There is no fiscal discipline and there is little to no personal discipline.

I can only imagine what its like in a company union that manufactures etc. but i have a good idea after seeing what I see here.

We know that unions help create an adversarial atmosphere, where in the workers build up resentments against their employer based on never ending demands and a system built to foster it. I see some of that here but not so much because we have a different focus. The larger the union the worse this is. Its destructive.

I think I can safely say that if my present work place was run along the lines of a private entity, we would get 3 times the work done in half the time and at a quarter of the cost.


my 5 cents.

 

[Si modo]

there is nothing wrong with Unions per se'. They were and in some cases a necessary org.

I worked for a fortune 500 co. for 15 years. I got laid off April 09. So, I think I have a pretty good perspective at least as it applies to a public union as I took a job in the gov. 3 months later, performing the same functions etc. I did in my private sector job. I am now in a union, with the defined pension plan, early retirement, Cadillac medical, my job security is pretty much assured, the whole shebang.

However; there is a trade off. Big ones.

As a private industry worker pay raises, bonus's etc. was a yearly event. I was a top performer all the way through. I am proud of that. I literally tripled my salary form the day I started, to what I was laid off with. My lowest raise ever was in a bad year for the co. we all got 2.5%, For 2 years, we got zip. My highest was 18.5%. Along the way I had received several double digit raises, plus we had a bonus system. We had very very good medical there too btw.Life insurance. profit sharing etc. I did however take a 15K pay cut so to speak. Thats to be expected but looking at where I started at my private co. pay wise and what I am getting now...well, I got a good salary.

In the Union, we just negotiated a 5 year contract where in we all, all, will get 3.5% for 4 year and 4% the last year. ( note* that the economy is in a free-fall and lots of private co's are not giving raises at all and they have lay-offs, don't I know, they had no lay offs in our union.)


Merit does not count. I can perform on the same level I did in my past co. and it doesn't matter, I top out at out 3.5%.

There are no bonus's, there are no spot awards or recognition. There is no meritocracy.

The work environment is okay. The building work in is only 3 years old. The digs are pretty good.

Heres were we go off the rails- there is little to no, uhm, urgency. There is little to no discipline, fiscal or otherwise.

We order and buy stuff at will. I can personally order anything at anytime up to $500.00, in one purchase order. I can create as many PO's as I want. No one checks me, I could be taking stuff home if I wanted too, ordering ti ngs that I really don't need etc.

At my old private co. this would not fly for a minute. My manager would get a monthly print out and I had to get permission first before I could order anything. They are supposed to have an audit system here, but in 15 months I have ben here so far, I have not seen it.

Getting something done requires the effort and pateince of Sisyphus.

Roll that rock up the hill and sometimes you feel like Prometheus getting your liver pecked out, the territoriality and hierarchical games as to who gets to do what , whatgets done or not, are off the wall. It stops work, prevents work, adds so much time and so much more effort to the process, its got to be seen to be believed, it builds in costs automatically that is/are astronomical. I cannot stress this enough.

There is no fiscal discipline and there is little to no personal discipline.

I can only imagine what its like in a company union that manufactures etc. but i have a good idea after seeing what I see here.

We know that unions help create an adversarial atmosphere, where in the workers build up resentments against their employer based on never ending demands and a system built to foster it. I see some of that here but not so much because we have a different focus. The larger the union the worse this is. Its destructive.

I think I can safely say that if my present work place was run along the lines of a private entity, we would get 3 times the work done in half the time and at a quarter of the cost.


my 5 cents.

[Emphasis added] I've worked in the private sector, academia, and the government (now in not-for-profit research institution). Your last comment (along with the others) is spot on. QFT.

I'll address those who say that government workers are paid better. That is untrue, but not entirely untrue. At the lower skills and abilities end, that is pretty much the case - they are paid better along with the fact that those sorts of positions are expendable in the private sector, but they have excellent security. A nice gig. At the higher skills and abilities end, the private sector pays much better, generally.

 

[lizzie]

I am not sure why conservatives fear and dislike unions. It seems they operate in a conservative fashion, and continue building America and making it a better place. What's wrong with Unions?

There was nothing initially wrong with unions. What has gone awry is that unions have turned into a political strong-arm, and, in part, put American workers in the manufacturing industry out of business by making it impossible to be competitive in a global economy.

 

[Madeline]

there is nothing wrong with Unions per se'. They were and in some cases a necessary org.

I worked for a fortune 500 co. for 15 years. I got laid off April 09. So, I think I have a pretty good perspective at least as it applies to a public union as I took a job in the gov. 3 months later, performing the same functions etc. I did in my private sector job. I am now in a union, with the defined pension plan, early retirement, Cadillac medical, my job security is pretty much assured, the whole shebang.

However; there is a trade off. Big ones.

As a private industry worker pay raises, bonus's etc. was a yearly event. I was a top performer all the way through. I am proud of that. I literally tripled my salary form the day I started, to what I was laid off with. My lowest raise ever was in a bad year for the co. we all got 2.5%, For 2 years, we got zip. My highest was 18.5%. Along the way I had received several double digit raises, plus we had a bonus system. We had very very good medical there too btw.Life insurance. profit sharing etc. I did however take a 15K pay cut so to speak. Thats to be expected but looking at where I started at my private co. pay wise and what I am getting now...well, I got a good salary.

In the Union, we just negotiated a 5 year contract where in we all, all, will get 3.5% for 4 year and 4% the last year. ( note* that the economy is in a free-fall and lots of private co's are not giving raises at all and they have lay-offs, don't I know, they had no lay offs in our union.)


Merit does not count. I can perform on the same level I did in my past co. and it doesn't matter, I top out at out 3.5%.

There are no bonus's, there are no spot awards or recognition. There is no meritocracy.

The work environment is okay. The building work in is only 3 years old. The digs are pretty good.

Heres were we go off the rails- there is little to no, uhm, urgency. There is little to no discipline, fiscal or otherwise.

We order and buy stuff at will. I can personally order anything at anytime up to $500.00, in one purchase order. I can create as many PO's as I want. No one checks me, I could be taking stuff home if I wanted too, ordering ti ngs that I really don't need etc.

At my old private co. this would not fly for a minute. My manager would get a monthly print out and I had to get permission first before I could order anything. They are supposed to have an audit system here, but in 15 months I have ben here so far, I have not seen it.

Getting something done requires the effort and pateince of Sisyphus.

Roll that rock up the hill and sometimes you feel like Prometheus getting your liver pecked out, the territoriality and hierarchical games as to who gets to do what , whatgets done or not, are off the wall. It stops work, prevents work, adds so much time and so much more effort to the process, its got to be seen to be believed, it builds in costs automatically that is/are astronomical. I cannot stress this enough.

There is no fiscal discipline and there is little to no personal discipline.

I can only imagine what its like in a company union that manufactures etc. but i have a good idea after seeing what I see here.

We know that unions help create an adversarial atmosphere, where in the workers build up resentments against their employer based on never ending demands and a system built to foster it. I see some of that here but not so much because we have a different focus. The larger the union the worse this is. Its destructive.

I think I can safely say that if my present work place was run along the lines of a private entity, we would get 3 times the work done in half the time and at a quarter of the cost.


my 5 cents.

[Emphasis added] I've worked in the private sector, academia, and the government (now in not-for-profit research institution). Your last comment (along with the others) is spot on. QFT.

I'll address those who say that government workers are paid better. That is untrue, but not entirely untrue. At the lower skills and abilities end, that is pretty much the case - they are paid better along with the fact that those sorts of positions are expendable in the private sector, but they have excellent security. A nice gig. At the higher skills and abilities end, the private sector pays much better, generally.

A "meritocracy" in a bureaucratic setting is a toughie. In a business, you can look to the bottom line and measure each employee's contribution (not a perfect system, I know). What do you measure in a bureaucracy?

 

[Trajan]

I'll address those who say that government workers are paid better. That is untrue, but not entirely untrue. At the lower skills and abilities end, that is pretty much the case - they are paid better along with the fact that those sorts of positions are expendable in the private sector, but they have excellent security. A nice gig. At the higher skills and abilities end, the private sector pays much better, generally.

Bingo!

 

[Trajan]

A "meritocracy" in a bureaucratic setting is a toughie. In a business, you can look to the bottom line and measure each employee's contribution (not a perfect system, I know). What do you measure in a bureaucracy?

excellent question, beats me.

the people I work with are very good, my manger knows his stuff and is frighteningly smart. Hes been in the system for decades. He is comfortable with it........

I guess the measurement is answering to him and keep grinding the bureaucracy to get things done.

there is no yardstick that I know of as to measuring individual contributions that would count in making the bureaucracy less or more effective there.

I mean hey my old co. had a bureaucracy to but, it was much more efficient because they had a meritocracy, if you got a reputation as a 'gate', that is someone how made things harder yet didn't bring value to the process, at review time you'd hear about it.

in the end people respond to past on the back, being valued, shown in concrete terms they are valued...Unions take that dynamic and tun it on its head.

Sooner or later you have to give the horse the carrot.

Giving a carrot to everyone, that is horses that don't pull or pull as hard is ultimately destructive.

 

[Madeline]

I was a government lawyer for many years, but not a public defender or an assistant district attorney. I was a litigator for a regulator (financial institutions). I would get a case and take it trial and win.....I only lost twice, and both times on appeal.....(I'll admit, I settled cases I thought were losers) and know what I heard?

* Why did you have to be so m-e-a-n?

Translation: The regulated person whined about me.

* We had claimed that cases like this could never be won. Now you've won one. We all hate you.

Translation: My coworkers whined about me.

* You won, but that's not what we wanted.

Translation: I was supposed to aggravate them until they....well, I can guess, but I dunno.

"They think we cannot control you". "Nobody knew you were gonna take that all the way to trial."

It's the Tallest Person In The Room Syndrome. Success in a bureaucracy is often failure.

All this aggro, and my boss/elected official LOVED me. Imagine what my life would've been like if he hadn't been my rabbi?

 

[SuMar]

Seniority.

Seniority is what's wrong with unions? Actually, it's protecting workers who don't deserve to have the job. Pushing work onto others that have a good work ethic. I've worked around companies that are union and from what I've seen, the ones with seniority are the ones that have the good work ethic and do their job.

Actually the thing wrong with unions is that they are the ATM for the democratic party.

 

[AllieBaba]

Federal Government employees make twice as much as their Private sector counter parts.

Another gullible moron stupid enough to swallow the GOP think tank generated crapaganda.

If you compare the pay for THE SAME JOBS there is little difference. Some private sector jobs pay a little more and some pay a little less. The way the dishonest GOP think tanks generated that deliberately misleading stat was by comparing all jobs combined. In reality there is a very different mix of jobs in the government and private sectors.

Government jobs have more high paying white collar jobs and the private sector has more low paying blue collar jobs, so it is dishonest to compare total jobs between both sectors, which is exactly why CON$ use only that comparison. The only honest way to compare the two sectors is to compare the SAME JOB in one sector to the SAME JOB in the other sector, which dishonest CON$ will never do.

Er..Fed gov't employees are represented by a UNION, folks.

 

[AllieBaba]

If you want to see exactly what's wrong with unions, look at the state of our K-12 education. Crappy educators are protected, tenure is more important than ability.

They are also a huge political machine that promotes itself as being non-partisan, but actually generates tens of MILLIONS of dollars for exclusively dem political candidates and policies.

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with unions at all...if they weren't a cash cow for politians.

 

[SuMar]

Federal Government employees make twice as much as their Private sector counter parts.

Another gullible moron stupid enough to swallow the GOP think tank generated crapaganda.

If you compare the pay for THE SAME JOBS there is little difference. Some private sector jobs pay a little more and some pay a little less. The way the dishonest GOP think tanks generated that deliberately misleading stat was by comparing all jobs combined. In reality there is a very different mix of jobs in the government and private sectors.

Government jobs have more high paying white collar jobs and the private sector has more low paying blue collar jobs, so it is dishonest to compare total jobs between both sectors, which is exactly why CON$ use only that comparison. The only honest way to compare the two sectors is to compare the SAME JOB in one sector to the SAME JOB in the other sector, which dishonest CON$ will never do.

Er..Fed gov't employees are represented by a UNION, folks.

The thing with government unions is that government unions are a BS union with no real power. It's illegal for a government union to strike. That's the reason Reagan fired all those air traffic controllers.

 

[Madeline]

Yes they are, Allie.

American Federation of Government Employees, AFL-CIO

National Federation of Federal Employees

NTEU Home

FederalDaily.com > Federal Employee Union, Trade, Professional and Veterans Groups

National Active and Retired Federal Employees Association

Etc.

 

[AllieBaba]

I said they are, Madeline.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Another gullible moron stupid enough to swallow the GOP think tank generated crapaganda.

If you compare the pay for THE SAME JOBS there is little difference. Some private sector jobs pay a little more and some pay a little less. The way the dishonest GOP think tanks generated that deliberately misleading stat was by comparing all jobs combined. In reality there is a very different mix of jobs in the government and private sectors.

Government jobs have more high paying white collar jobs and the private sector has more low paying blue collar jobs, so it is dishonest to compare total jobs between both sectors, which is exactly why CON$ use only that comparison. The only honest way to compare the two sectors is to compare the SAME JOB in one sector to the SAME JOB in the other sector, which dishonest CON$ will never do.

i dont know where you got that bullshit from,but its not like that at contract time at the PO....oh and there are many Democrats in upper management here....im surprised Rush did not tell you this....