What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[Lipush]

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

 

[Lipush]

Saigon, Lipush, et al,

There is a dispute over the meaning of UNSC Res 242 requirement: "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict." and the phrase: "termination of all claims or states of belligerency."
The Meaning of Resolution 242

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

(COMMENT)

The Israelis have already established settlements; something they should not have done. It is not likely that in areas where there are settlements, that the Israelis will give that up; and that will perpetuate the conflict.

At some point, Israel is going to have to Annex the Occupied Territories; if it entends to keep it. But that creates a whole new set of issues; both legal and domestic.

Most Respectfully,
R

I believed I answered that in my previous post.

 

[Lipush]

Roudy, et al,

Who said anything about "hating Jews."

Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103. Another obsessed Jew hater.

(COMMENT)

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel. That is completely different from:

• New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
• A splinter group of Hezbollah carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983. It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila.
• The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater." That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The USS Liberty incident was a horrible foolish accident; But still an accident. That is what we were taught at our schools, our colleges, and that is what our commandors made sure we will know, when I served in the Navy. Each year we had at least a month of learning about previous wars of the navy, and on special events, "Navy legacy" as we call it. We discussed the Libery issue all the time, none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is no question that Israel belongs to the Jews. T.

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.

If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Roudy, et al,

Who said anything about "hating Jews."

Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103. Another obsessed Jew hater.

(COMMENT)

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel. That is completely different from:

• New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
• A splinter group of Hezbollah carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983. It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila.
• The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater." That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The USS Liberty incident was a horrible foolish accident; But still an accident. That is what we were taught at our schools, our colleges, and that is what our commandors made sure we will know, when I served in the Navy. Each year we had at least a month of learning about previous wars of the navy, and on special events, "Navy legacy" as we call it. We discussed the Libery issue all the time, none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

Bright sunny day. American flag the size of a house. USS Liberty painted on the side. The only ship in the world with that profile.

...none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

Of course they don't

 

[Artevelde]

Roudy, et al,

Who said anything about "hating Jews."

Yeah, remember the Liberty but not 9-11, the marine barracks, the Cole bombing, Pan Am flight 103. Another obsessed Jew hater.

(COMMENT)

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel. That is completely different from:

• New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
• A splinter group of Hezbollah carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983. It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila.
• The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater." That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The USS Liberty incident was a horrible foolish accident; But still an accident. That is what we were taught at our schools, our colleges, and that is what our commandors made sure we will know, when I served in the Navy. Each year we had at least a month of learning about previous wars of the navy, and on special events, "Navy legacy" as we call it. We discussed the Libery issue all the time, none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

Sorry, but that really isn't historically accurate.

 

[Lipush]

Roudy, et al,

Who said anything about "hating Jews."


(COMMENT)

The USS Liberty was a direct assault by the Israelis on a US Naval Vessel. That is completely different from:

• New York attack by Al-Qaeda on 911.
• A splinter group of Hezbollah carried out the attack against the Marine Barracks in 1983. It was in retaliation for America's support for Israel, and who many Palestinians believed allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia to massacre civilians in the refuge camps of Sabra and Shatila.
• The Pan Am Flight 103 bombing was orchestrated by Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi (Tripoli).

I suppose that anyone that is not in love with the Israelis is automatically a"Jew Hater." That is not the case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The USS Liberty incident was a horrible foolish accident; But still an accident. That is what we were taught at our schools, our colleges, and that is what our commandors made sure we will know, when I served in the Navy. Each year we had at least a month of learning about previous wars of the navy, and on special events, "Navy legacy" as we call it. We discussed the Libery issue all the time, none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

Bright sunny day. American flag the size of a house. USS Liberty painted on the side. The only ship in the world with that profile.

...none the IDF OR government see it as something which was intentional.

Of course they don't

Yet I will still take the word of the IDF before taking the word of any foreign source. Even American one.

Sue me.

 

[Lipush]

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.

If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

Yet Ahmed Tibi doesn't agree. Hamas doesn't agree. So what do we do?

 

[Saigon]

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Judea and Samaria are the Israeli names, and when I am in Israel I use those - I also use Ramat ha-Golan. But I use Golan Heights when talking to westerners, and I guess you do too.

West Bank is the more western name for the area, and it makes sense because it does suggest where the area actually is.

I think both names are fine.

Palestine never is and never was the same thing as Jordan - anymore so than Lebanon is or was the same thing as Syria. They are neighbouring areas, inhabited by similar but distinctly unique peoples. I don't see it as a thousand miles different from considering Austria and Germany, Ukraine and Russia or even Viet Nam and Cambodia.

Jordan does not occupy anything. 'Transjordan' included the West Bank, but the term 'Jordan' does not. Britain recognised this, and sensibly separated the West Bank out from the Jordanian mandate territory. There was a time Jordan did look to annex the West Bank....but it was not a successful or popular experiment.

 

[Lipush]

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Judea and Samaria are the Israeli names, and when I am in Israel I use those - I also use Ramat ha-Golan. But I use Golan Heights when talking to westerners, and I guess you do too.

West Bank is the more western name for the area, and it makes sense because it does suggest where the area actually is.

I think both names are fine.

Palestine never is and never was the same thing as Jordan - anymore so than Lebanon is or was the same thing as Syria. They are neighbouring areas, inhabited by similar but distinctly unique peoples. I don't see it as a thousand miles different from considering Austria and Germany, Ukraine and Russia or even Viet Nam and Cambodia.

Jordan does not occupy anything. 'Transjordan' included the West Bank, but the term 'Jordan' does not. Britain recognised this, and sensibly separated the West Bank out from the Jordanian mandate territory. There was a time Jordan did look to annex the West Bank....but it was not a successful or popular experiment.

However, before the war Y&S was part of Jordan

I forgot to ask, Can you speak Hebrew fluently?

 

[Saigon]

However, before the war Y&S was part of Jordan

I forgot to ask, Can you speak Hebrew fluently?

It was for a while, yes. But it didn't seem to suit either side - Palestinians felt they were being annexed, and Hashemites felt they were in danger of becoming a minority in their own country.

My Hebrew was never fluent - I really regret that I didn't try harder when I first arrived, but I arrived thinking it was going to be impossible, and then after 9-10 months I realised I'd picked up quite a lot and only then really tried to learn - and then didn't have the time.

I did some nightclasses in Arabic here, but didn't really have the motivation to study very hard.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.

If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

Yet Ahmed Tibi doesn't agree. Hamas doesn't agree. So what do we do?

Tibi did not address this specific issue here but he seems to be a reasonable person. Perhaps you have something that would be more informative.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_aR9MkvnRk]Ahmed Tibi interview with Yair Lapid - YouTube[/ame].

 

[Hossfly]

I totally agree - I don't think there is any question about that either.

But I don't consider the West Bank to be a part of Israel - I consider it to belong to Palestinians as much as Israel belongs to Israelis.

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.

If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?

 

[P F Tinmore]

That doesn't make any sense, if taking to mind two basic facts.

1. Isn't the WB "occupied" from Jordan? if the Jordanians would have said anything, this would not have anything to do with the Palestinians, but Jordanians. But I guess that "Palestine" is Jordan. In that case, it DOES makes sense.

2. This place is not called the West Bank to start with. It is called Judea and Samaria.

Even Jimmy Carter HIMSELF recognized the right of the Jews to name the land that way, on October 1978 he wrote to Begin that in a letter.

^
l
l
l

Probably because of That.

Judea, because the tribe of Yehuda sat there to start with. We're the JEWS. See the connection?

It's the most basic oxymoron to say that the land which was named after the tribe that sat there, does not belong to the people of that tribe. Or it's just me that see the irony?

Anyway, in the future, the land may belong to the Palestinian state, but I don't think that Israel will agree with a negotiation which means taking the Jews of the Area out of there. If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.

If they wish to stay, let them stay under a Palestinian government, but let them stay. After all, they will demand that the Israeli Arabs will stay in Israel.

Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?

None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.

 

[Hossfly]

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.



Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?

None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.

That's good news but I doubt it.

 

[RoccoR]

Lipush, et al,

Loyalty is a most admirable quality. I only mentioned the USS Liberty because the anniversary of the attack is around the corner (8 JUNE). That is what brought it to mind. I mentioned it, originally, in Remembrance of the 34 Officers and Men. It is not a standard Post Script. As it appears to be offensive, I will not use it again; in this forum.

The USS Liberty was decommissioned in 1968 and later sold for scrap. That same year, William McGonagle received the Congressional Medal of Honor for gallantry displayed during the attack, and Israel paid over $6 million in restitution to the families of those wounded and killed. An additional $6 million in damages was paid under a 1980 agreement in which Israel and the United States consented "not to address the issue or motive or reopen the case for any reason."51
SOURCE: The USS Liberty: Case Closed
Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem

I further apologize for any slight my "Remembrance" may have projected.

Yet I will still take the word of the IDF before taking the word of any foreign source. Even American one.

Sue me.

(COMMENT)

One's loyalty to country and nation is something that you don't challenge. It is an everlasting pledge of the most personal kind. It is something that is almost beyond description, yet understood by many who answer their nation's call to duty. Whether friend or foe, it is something we have in common.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Lipush]

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.



Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

Yet Ahmed Tibi doesn't agree. Hamas doesn't agree. So what do we do?

Tibi did not address this specific issue here but he seems to be a reasonable person. Perhaps you have something that would be more informative.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_aR9MkvnRk]Ahmed Tibi interview with Yair Lapid - YouTube[/ame].

I'm sorry I brought it up.

 

[Lipush]

The West Bank is an occupation term that came into existence in 1949 when the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. The Palestinians just call it Palestine.



Interesting that you should bring that up. Salam Fayyad said the same thing about the settlers. Hamas has said that the Jews can stay as Palestinian citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians can live anywhere they want.

So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?

None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.

That what the Palestinians would want. However, Israelis will stick to normal lifestyle, thank you.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So Hamas says the Jews can stay as Palestinians. Does that mean they must convert to Islam or can they retain their Jewish faith as citizens?

None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.

That what the Palestinians would want. However, Israelis will stick to normal lifestyle, thank you.

What would the Palestinians want?

 

[Lipush]

None of Palestine's Christians or Jews have had to convert.

That what the Palestinians would want. However, Israelis will stick to normal lifestyle, thank you.

What would the Palestinians want?

The same thing 99% of the Muslims want. A world which is ruled by Shariah. Duh.