What is the scope of your religious freedom as a business?

[The Rabbi]

Dumb questions? Really?

Doctor refuses to treat baby of lesbian parents because they re gay.

Obviously the doctor was wrong and can be sued for discrimination. What is there to debate?

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

True.
Can a Catholic obstetrician be forced to perform an abortion?

he or she can refuse and be fired.

Isnt that punishing someone for maintaining their religious beliefs? It's like saying you're free to criticize Obama's policies as long as you dont mind going to jail. That isnt freedom at all.

 

[bendog]

Obviously the doctor was wrong and can be sued for discrimination. What is there to debate?

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

What religion tells you that you can't bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Obviously people have issues being seen as condoning homosexual marriage. The right course is to respect their opinions, even if you disagree with them. But respect is something leftists never have.

Business is business. I do business with people and I dont respect nor condone their views all the time. if you have that much of an issue with someone elses views then business is not the world you want to be in.

Yes it has sadly. Thanks to Republicans.

Rati, if there are two stores that carry similar goods, and one is owned by a homosexual, should shoppers be required by law to go to that store? What if shoppers discriminate against the gay store because the owner is gay? Should they be required by law to spend a certain percent of their budget at gay owned stores?

Now that you democrats have brought back slavery, how does this all work?

The premise that makes this work is their assumption that anyone who opens a business is implicitly sacrificing some of their rights. They forfeit freedom of association in exchange for "permission" from the state to trade with others.

and by 'others' i guess you mean the customer is always right...

what about the rights of the store owner...?

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

So, are you saying that covert bigotry is more Christian than overt bigotry?

There is nothing christian about bigotry covert or not. What I am saying is if you dont want a customer there are other ways of getting rid of them.

The baker could simply say "I cannot in conscience sell you a cake, because I'd be contributing to a sin, but I will give you a cake and pray that God will lead you to a Godly path."

 

[Asclepias]

Not really. You can practice your religion as much as you like as long as it doesnt encroach on the rights of others.

and by 'others' i guess you mean the customer is always right...

what about the rights of the store owner...?

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

so the baker must provide a customer with any kind of cake they demand......? i don't think so...

Not any kind. If your business makes wedding cakes they you have to make the wedding cake.

 

[The Rabbi]

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

What religion tells you that you can't bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Obviously people have issues being seen as condoning homosexual marriage. The right course is to respect their opinions, even if you disagree with them. But respect is something leftists never have.

Business is business. I do business with people and I dont respect nor condone their views all the time. if you have that much of an issue with someone elses views then business is not the world you want to be in.

Yes it has sadly. Thanks to Republicans.

Rati, if there are two stores that carry similar goods, and one is owned by a homosexual, should shoppers be required by law to go to that store? What if shoppers discriminate against the gay store because the owner is gay? Should they be required by law to spend a certain percent of their budget at gay owned stores?

Now that you democrats have brought back slavery, how does this all work?

The premise that makes this work is their assumption that anyone who opens a business is implicitly sacrificing some of their rights. They forfeit freedom of association in exchange for "permission" from the state to trade with others.

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

So, are you saying that covert bigotry is more Christian than overt bigotry?

There is nothing christian about bigotry covert or not. What I am saying is if you dont want a customer there are other ways of getting rid of them.

The baker could simply say "I cannot in conscience sell you a cake, because I'd be contributing to a sin, but I will give you a cake and pray that God will lead you to a Godly path."

The point is not the selling. The point is providing one to begin with.

 

[Uncensored2008]

What the fuck are you babbling about?

When you force others to work against their will, that is "involuntary servitude." You democrats used to be the masters (pun intended) of involuntary servitude, but you lost a civil war and the Republicans made you stop.

For 150 years, you're schemed and plotted in your dream to bring back slavery - now you have succeeded, now you can again force others to serve you against their will. You must be so happy.

democrats love them some slavery.....

 

[Skull Pilot]

(patiently)

Many religions consider homosexuality immoral.

And also forbid people to encourage immorality.

Their not encouraging it if the people are gay before they come into the bakery.

Isn't divorce considered immoral in a lot of religions too?

I bet these so pious bakers have no problem baking a wedding cake for some divorced sinners second marriage

Do you see the problem yet?

The greater problem is thinking fining or forcing these people out of business via government action is the proper response.

Exactly, Marty. And that's what my moved thread on the donkey was intended to get at. Jesus, Rosa Parks and Mandela all stood up nonviolently and without the power of the state to show the INJUSTICE of the state's actions should offend us all.

Yet, the response by Indiana and Arkansas was to legally justify the right to discriminate against gays. Hardly what Christ was about.

how are they doing that...? the law says nothing about gays...

the law is simply to provide a way to court for people who do not want to be forced against their religious beliefs...

Forced to do what?

How does baking a cake violate the tenets of any religion?

And will these oh so holy people apply this refusal to all people who sin or just some people who sin?

IDGAF if people refuse to serve someone I just want them to be honest and consistent.

 

[Asclepias]

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

What religion tells you that you can't bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Obviously people have issues being seen as condoning homosexual marriage. The right course is to respect their opinions, even if you disagree with them. But respect is something leftists never have.

Business is business. I do business with people and I dont respect nor condone their views all the time. if you have that much of an issue with someone elses views then business is not the world you want to be in.

Yes it has sadly. Thanks to Republicans.

Rati, if there are two stores that carry similar goods, and one is owned by a homosexual, should shoppers be required by law to go to that store? What if shoppers discriminate against the gay store because the owner is gay? Should they be required by law to spend a certain percent of their budget at gay owned stores?

Now that you democrats have brought back slavery, how does this all work?

The premise that makes this work is their assumption that anyone who opens a business is implicitly sacrificing some of their rights. They forfeit freedom of association in exchange for "permission" from the state to trade with others.

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

So, are you saying that covert bigotry is more Christian than overt bigotry?

There is nothing christian about bigotry covert or not. What I am saying is if you dont want a customer there are other ways of getting rid of them.

The baker could simply say "I cannot in conscience sell you a cake, because I'd be contributing to a sin, but I will give you a cake and pray that God will lead you to a Godly path."

Thats way too polite for bigots.They must make the person feel as vile as possible.

 

[rightwinger]

Many of the world's most widespread religions are based on texts that clearly and succinctly describe homosexuality as wrong, punishable, and even forbidden.

Now in the U.S. the Fed govt has passed legislation saying that businesses cannot refuse to serve customers because they are homosexual.

Does that legislation violate the 1st amendment for people in those religions, who run businesses?

Do you lose the constitutional protection of your right to "freely exercise" your religion, if you start a business?

Yes, you do
You start a business and you have to comply with applicable laws

 

[The Rabbi]

(patiently)

Many religions consider homosexuality immoral.

And also forbid people to encourage immorality.

Their not encouraging it if the people are gay before they come into the bakery.

Isn't divorce considered immoral in a lot of religions too?

I bet these so pious bakers have no problem baking a wedding cake for some divorced sinners second marriage

Do you see the problem yet?

The greater problem is thinking fining or forcing these people out of business via government action is the proper response.

Exactly, Marty. And that's what my moved thread on the donkey was intended to get at. Jesus, Rosa Parks and Mandela all stood up nonviolently and without the power of the state to show the INJUSTICE of the state's actions should offend us all.

Yet, the response by Indiana and Arkansas was to legally justify the right to discriminate against gays. Hardly what Christ was about.

how are they doing that...? the law says nothing about gays...

the law is simply to provide a way to court for people who do not want to be forced against their religious beliefs...

Forced to do what?

How does baking a cake violate the tenets of any religion?

And will these oh so holy people apply this refusal to all people who sin or just some people who sin?

IDGAF if people refuse to serve someone I just want them to be honest and consistent.

That frames it incorrectly. Participating in a gay wedding violates the tenets of some people's religion.
FWIW in the Oregon case the lesbian couple were patrons of the bakery. The bakery had no issue with lesbians. IT did have an issue with a lesbian marriage.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Obviously the doctor was wrong and can be sued for discrimination. What is there to debate?

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

True.
Can a Catholic obstetrician be forced to perform an abortion?

he or she can refuse and be fired.

Isnt that punishing someone for maintaining their religious beliefs? It's like saying you're free to criticize Obama's policies as long as you dont mind going to jail. That isnt freedom at all.

No it's firing someone for breech of contract or insubordination.

If abortion was an issue then that person should have never taken a job at an establishment that performs abortions.

Just like a Muslim shouldn't take a job at a store that serves beer and bacon and expect not to get fired for not handling the beer and bacon

 

[Uncensored2008]

No. Thanks for stopping by and showing your stupidity.

Why not?

If a seller is forced to sell to homosexuals, why would a buyer not be forced to buy from them?

 

[The Rabbi]

Many of the world's most widespread religions are based on texts that clearly and succinctly describe homosexuality as wrong, punishable, and even forbidden.

Now in the U.S. the Fed govt has passed legislation saying that businesses cannot refuse to serve customers because they are homosexual.

Does that legislation violate the 1st amendment for people in those religions, who run businesses?

Do you lose the constitutional protection of your right to "freely exercise" your religion, if you start a business?

Yes, you do
You start a business and you have to comply with applicable laws

And so the applicable law allows for people to present a religious objection to some activities.
Thanks!

 

[Asclepias]

No. Thanks for stopping by and showing your stupidity.

Why not?

If a seller is forced to sell to homosexuals, why would a buyer not be forced to buy from them?

That was stupid even for you.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

and by 'others' i guess you mean the customer is always right...

what about the rights of the store owner...?

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

so the baker must provide a customer with any kind of cake they demand......? i don't think so...

Not any kind. If your business makes wedding cakes they you have to make the wedding cake.

but gay wedding cakes are a different kind than regular wedding cakes....

 

[Skull Pilot]

Their not encouraging it if the people are gay before they come into the bakery.

Isn't divorce considered immoral in a lot of religions too?

I bet these so pious bakers have no problem baking a wedding cake for some divorced sinners second marriage

Do you see the problem yet?

The greater problem is thinking fining or forcing these people out of business via government action is the proper response.

Exactly, Marty. And that's what my moved thread on the donkey was intended to get at. Jesus, Rosa Parks and Mandela all stood up nonviolently and without the power of the state to show the INJUSTICE of the state's actions should offend us all.

Yet, the response by Indiana and Arkansas was to legally justify the right to discriminate against gays. Hardly what Christ was about.

how are they doing that...? the law says nothing about gays...

the law is simply to provide a way to court for people who do not want to be forced against their religious beliefs...

Forced to do what?

How does baking a cake violate the tenets of any religion?

And will these oh so holy people apply this refusal to all people who sin or just some people who sin?

IDGAF if people refuse to serve someone I just want them to be honest and consistent.

That frames it incorrectly. Participating in a gay wedding violates the tenets of some people's religion.
FWIW in the Oregon case the lesbian couple were patrons of the bakery. The bakery had no issue with lesbians. IT did have an issue with a lesbian marriage.

They are not participating in the wedding they are baking a cake.
The baker does not generally attend or participate in the wedding ceremony and the cake is for the party after not the ceremony before.

Does this baker deny gays birthday cakes because there will be other gay people at the birthday party?

 

[rightwinger]

Dumb questions? Really?

Doctor refuses to treat baby of lesbian parents because they re gay.

Obviously the doctor was wrong and can be sued for discrimination. What is there to debate?

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

What religion tells you that you can't bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Obviously people have issues being seen as condoning homosexual marriage. The right course is to respect their opinions, even if you disagree with them. But respect is something leftists never have.

In your private life, you are right

Once you open your business to the public, you are subject to the rules. The rules say you cannot deny service

 

[The Rabbi]

How can the doctor be discriminating when these are hard held religious beliefs?

What religion tells you can't treat a gay patient? Answer: no religion

Slippery slope fallacy

True.
Can a Catholic obstetrician be forced to perform an abortion?

he or she can refuse and be fired.

Isnt that punishing someone for maintaining their religious beliefs? It's like saying you're free to criticize Obama's policies as long as you dont mind going to jail. That isnt freedom at all.

No it's firing someone for breech of contract or insubordination.

If abortion was an issue then that person should have never taken a job at an establishment that performs abortions.

Just like a Muslim shouldn't take a job at a store that serves beer and bacon and expect not to get fired for not handling the beer and bacon

Thats sort of true.
The rule is reasonable accomodation. If the job description is performing abortions then the hospital/clinic is right to fire/not hire the doctor. But if the job description is general ob/gyn work and then the manager comes and says we need you to perform abortions then the doctor is right to refuse. If the hospital can make reasonable accomodatons for the doctor's belief then they must.

 

[Asclepias]

Exactly
What about the rights of the store owner?

well according to you the store owner has to provide whatever perverted cake the customer demands....so i guess he has none...

Thats what happens when you are in business. You provide what the customer asks for. If you dont want the customer do a crappy job and they wont be back.

so the baker must provide a customer with any kind of cake they demand......? i don't think so...

Not any kind. If your business makes wedding cakes they you have to make the wedding cake.

but gay wedding cakes are a different kind than regular wedding cakes....

No they arent. Its just a wedding cake.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You lose your right to practice your religion when the government has a good reason to take away that right.

Discriminating in a business is a good reason.

Discriiminating in business trumps a First Amendment right to free exercise? I dont think so.

Yes it does because running a business is a business practice, not a religious practice.

If you were right then racial discrimination returns to being legal in retail sales, business services, hiring, real estate renting, etc.

Civil rights as we know them today would end and every individual would be his own government based on whatever set of religious beliefs he chose to concoct.

 

[The Rabbi]

The greater problem is thinking fining or forcing these people out of business via government action is the proper response.

Exactly, Marty. And that's what my moved thread on the donkey was intended to get at. Jesus, Rosa Parks and Mandela all stood up nonviolently and without the power of the state to show the INJUSTICE of the state's actions should offend us all.

Yet, the response by Indiana and Arkansas was to legally justify the right to discriminate against gays. Hardly what Christ was about.

how are they doing that...? the law says nothing about gays...

the law is simply to provide a way to court for people who do not want to be forced against their religious beliefs...

Forced to do what?

How does baking a cake violate the tenets of any religion?

And will these oh so holy people apply this refusal to all people who sin or just some people who sin?

IDGAF if people refuse to serve someone I just want them to be honest and consistent.

That frames it incorrectly. Participating in a gay wedding violates the tenets of some people's religion.
FWIW in the Oregon case the lesbian couple were patrons of the bakery. The bakery had no issue with lesbians. IT did have an issue with a lesbian marriage.

They are not participating in the wedding they are baking a cake.
The baker does not generally attend or participate in the wedding ceremony and the cake is for the party after not the ceremony before.

Does this baker deny gays birthday cakes because there will be other gay people at the birthday party?

The bakers' actual objection was they felt they were participating. Perhaps they had to deliver it or whatever. But that is a given here.