What is really the culprit of our economy

[georgephillip]

Welcome Doc:

Hope you're ready for that asylum where the inmates call the shots.

In a single word, I would choose "debt" as your culprit.
"War" and "Racket" would be close behind.
It's hard for me to imagine war without private debt and investment bankers who profit from killing other people's families.

I believe any solution starts with public banking modeled on the state of North Dakota doing business as the State Bank of North Dakota. It's worked there since 1919, and if it came to the other 49 states, Wall Street bankers would discover all the joys of outsourcing.

Since virtually all elected Republicans AND Democrats need Wall Street at least as much as our votes, I suggest using established third parties (Greens and Libertarians) to FLUSH as many incumbents as possible from congress on November 2nd.

It is a political leap of faith.
But there's no doubt where Wall Street, Republicans, and Democrats are leading.
And it's not toward political or economic freedom.

 

[Neubarth]

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

Total bullshit article, there LieNatters. Hitler was a strong socialist. The article starts off with an open lie and then builds more lies up on top of the initial lie. I quote the initial lie, "But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production."

Socialism does not require worker ownership and control of the means of production. Communism does (through the collective of the state), but Communism is not Socialism.

Modern day Germany and modern day Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all Socialist countries but patterned after Nazi Germany in that the government works with Big Business to create jobs. Hitler set up a fine system and it worked very well as we have seen. Germany is carrying Europe economically.

 

[MaggieMae]

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

Total bullshit article, there LieNatters. Hitler was a strong socialist. The article starts off with an open lie and then builds more lies up on top of the initial lie. I quote the initial lie, "But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production."

Socialism does not require worker ownership and control of the means of production. Communism does (through the collective of the state), but Communism is not Socialism.

Modern day Germany and modern day Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all Socialist countries but patterned after Nazi Germany in that the government works with Big Business to create jobs. Hitler set up a fine system and it worked very well as we have seen. Germany is carrying Europe economically.

Hitler was elected on the promise of a strong Germany, jobs and national glory, and the Nazi Party expanded tremendously. However, once Hitler was appointed chancellor, he quickly established himself as a dictator and together with a subservient legislature which allowed him to Nazify the bureaucracy and the judiciary, Hitler replaced all labor unions with one Nazi-controlled German Labor Front, and banned all political parties except his own. The economy, the media, and all cultural activities were brought under Nazi authority by making an individual's livelihood dependent on political loyalty.

Modern day Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark do NOT resemble anything even coming close to the above. Hitler was NOT a "Socialist.

 

[Mr Natural]

The real culprit?

Too many people and not enough good jobs.

Not everyone can be an accountant or engineer and those without extensive formal education need jobs also.

America needs to return to being the manufacturing powerhouse it once was. And if that means that TV sets and sneakers cost a little more, then so be it. We'll all be alot better off because of it.

 

[georgephillip]

At the beginning of the Industrial Revolution it was assumed the machine would free humanity from the need to work, and subsistence (food and shelter) would become a birth right.

Anybody think we're there yet?

 

[Neubarth]

At the beginning of the Industrial Revolution it was assumed the machine would free humanity from the need to work, and subsistence (food and shelter) would become a birth right.

Anybody think we're there yet?

As soon as we get the world's population under half a Billion. THEN we should be there or very close. Anybody with an IQ below 120 should be sterilized so they can stop producing stupid kids who grow up to produce more stupid kids who are just parasites on the world.

Pray that the time will come soon.

 

[Neubarth]

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

Total bullshit article, there LieNatters. Hitler was a strong socialist. The article starts off with an open lie and then builds more lies up on top of the initial lie. I quote the initial lie, "But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production."

Socialism does not require worker ownership and control of the means of production. Communism does (through the collective of the state), but Communism is not Socialism.

Modern day Germany and modern day Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all Socialist countries but patterned after Nazi Germany in that the government works with Big Business to create jobs. Hitler set up a fine system and it worked very well as we have seen. Germany is carrying Europe economically.

Hitler was elected on the promise of a strong Germany, jobs and national glory, and the Nazi Party expanded tremendously. However, once Hitler was appointed chancellor, he quickly established himself as a dictator and together with a subservient legislature which allowed him to Nazify the bureaucracy and the judiciary, Hitler replaced all labor unions with one Nazi-controlled German Labor Front, and banned all political parties except his own. The economy, the media, and all cultural activities were brought under Nazi authority by making an individual's livelihood dependent on political loyalty.

Modern day Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark do NOT resemble anything even coming close to the above. Hitler was NOT a "Socialist.

Magggie, that is totally wrong and you show tremendous ignorance in your education. You are confusing an economic system and a political system. Hitler was a strong socialist. He was also a strong nationalist. Socialism is not a political party but political parties can endorse socialism. Read a little before making such a fool of yourself all of the time.. I am an historian and one of the world's foremost authorities on Nazi Germany.

 

[MaggieMae]

Total bullshit article, there LieNatters. Hitler was a strong socialist. The article starts off with an open lie and then builds more lies up on top of the initial lie. I quote the initial lie, "But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production."

Socialism does not require worker ownership and control of the means of production. Communism does (through the collective of the state), but Communism is not Socialism.

Modern day Germany and modern day Norway, Sweden and Denmark are all Socialist countries but patterned after Nazi Germany in that the government works with Big Business to create jobs. Hitler set up a fine system and it worked very well as we have seen. Germany is carrying Europe economically.

Hitler was elected on the promise of a strong Germany, jobs and national glory, and the Nazi Party expanded tremendously. However, once Hitler was appointed chancellor, he quickly established himself as a dictator and together with a subservient legislature which allowed him to Nazify the bureaucracy and the judiciary, Hitler replaced all labor unions with one Nazi-controlled German Labor Front, and banned all political parties except his own. The economy, the media, and all cultural activities were brought under Nazi authority by making an individual's livelihood dependent on political loyalty.

Modern day Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark do NOT resemble anything even coming close to the above. Hitler was NOT a "Socialist.

Magggie, that is totally wrong and you show tremendous ignorance in your education. You are confusing an economic system and a political system. Hitler was a strong socialist. He was also a strong nationalist. Socialism is not a political party but political parties can endorse socialism. Read a little before making such a fool of yourself all of the time.. I am an historian and one of the world's foremost authorities on Nazi Germany.

Oh wow, can you direct me to some of your writings? I actually did my college thesis on that very subject and did months and months of research. The conclusion by historians of record is exactly as I stated.

 

[Neubarth]

Hitler was elected on the promise of a strong Germany, jobs and national glory, and the Nazi Party expanded tremendously. However, once Hitler was appointed chancellor, he quickly established himself as a dictator and together with a subservient legislature which allowed him to Nazify the bureaucracy and the judiciary, Hitler replaced all labor unions with one Nazi-controlled German Labor Front, and banned all political parties except his own. The economy, the media, and all cultural activities were brought under Nazi authority by making an individual's livelihood dependent on political loyalty.

Modern day Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark do NOT resemble anything even coming close to the above. Hitler was NOT a "Socialist.

Magggie, that is totally wrong and you show tremendous ignorance in your education. You are confusing an economic system and a political system. Hitler was a strong socialist. He was also a strong nationalist. Socialism is not a political party but political parties can endorse socialism. Read a little before making such a fool of yourself all of the time.. I am an historian and one of the world's foremost authorities on Nazi Germany.

Oh wow, can you direct me to some of your writings? I actually did my college thesis on that very subject and did months and months of research. The conclusion by historians of record is exactly as I stated.

Gross stupidity is not an excuse for posting total nonsense on this forum. Get the hell out of here if you are going to confuse everybody with your insane gibberish.

A political system is not an economic system. A political system can embrace an economic system. A political system and outside conditions can corrupt an economic system as happened to Germany once it was in a World War.

You said you did months and months of research for a college thesis on your combining of politics with economics as one entity. What fucking idiot college would take a paper like that? There is no reputable university or college in the world that would allow you to submit a paper that would allow you to claim that German nationalism was an economic policy.

Socialism remains socialism. It is a very well thought out but simple economic system that serves a large part of Europe quite well. It varies from country to country Hitler took the initiative to work with Big Business to put people to work. Seeing how well Hitler's cooperation with the major industries of his country worked, that is still the policy in the German and Scandinavian countries to this day. It is also used to a lesser degree in France and Italy. It is amazing what can be accomplished when government does not take an adversarial position against the large corporations in that country. Krupp Stahl is a perfect example.

You can try to deny it all you want, but you would just be dishonest. I keep on seeing a lot of that on this forum from idiots who do not know what they are talking about. Just spouting for spouting sake.

 

[MaggieMae]

Magggie, that is totally wrong and you show tremendous ignorance in your education. You are confusing an economic system and a political system. Hitler was a strong socialist. He was also a strong nationalist. Socialism is not a political party but political parties can endorse socialism. Read a little before making such a fool of yourself all of the time.. I am an historian and one of the world's foremost authorities on Nazi Germany.

Oh wow, can you direct me to some of your writings? I actually did my college thesis on that very subject and did months and months of research. The conclusion by historians of record is exactly as I stated.

Gross stupidity is not an excuse for posting total nonsense on this forum. Get the hell out of here if you are going to confuse everybody with your insane gibberish.

A political system is not an economic system. A political system can embrace an economic system. A political system and outside conditions can corrupt an economic system as happened to Germany once it was in a World War.

You said you did months and months of research for a college thesis on your combining of politics with economics as one entity. What fucking idiot college would take a paper like that? There is no reputable university or college in the world that would allow you to submit a paper that would allow you to claim that German nationalism was an economic policy.

Socialism remains socialism. It is a very well thought out but simple economic system that serves a large part of Europe quite well. It varies from country to country Hitler took the initiative to work with Big Business to put people to work. Seeing how well Hitler's cooperation with the major industries of his country worked, that is still the policy in the German and Scandinavian countries to this day. It is also used to a lesser degree in France and Italy. It is amazing what can be accomplished when government does not take an adversarial position against the large corporations in that country. Krupp Stahl is a perfect example.

You can try to deny it all you want, but you would just be dishonest. I keep on seeing a lot of that on this forum from idiots who do not know what they are talking about. Just spouting for spouting sake.

Your rabid defense of Nazism, even to the point of ORDERING me out of here, says volumes. You can try to smooth it over by claiming Nazism equaled Socialism 'till pigs fly, which is what defenders of the Reich historically have done. The fact remains (the HISTORICAL FACTS) that Hitler abolished the workers party that he endeared at the beginning of his career. He continued to use the NAME of the National Socialist Party, which was only a facade after he bastardized it to fit his own agenda.

And by the way, I can think of NO college or university in America that would not accept a student's thesis, no matter what the topic (based on course material) and no matter what political leanings were contained therein. That is NOT the purpose of a thesis. So much for your educational background as a "historian" if you don't even know that. My thesis was for the course in European History, for which I received an A. Unfortunately, it can't be accessed by the Internet because that would require my retyping the whole thing.

Nuff said. I don't intend to debate someone like you. Next you'll be telling me the Holocaust had some noble purpose.

 

[Neubarth]

Here is a direct quote from my cousin Adolph Hitler himself.


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"


(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

All true dedicated Socialists feel the same way. When I was young, I was a Socialist. I am a conservative Democrat now, but I do believe in fair salaries for a fair day's work

 

[Bfgrn]

Welcome Doc. I agree with your sentiments and observations. I am a JFK liberal with a libertarian viewpoint on privacy and fixing our broken draconian criminal justice system.

A few random thoughts:

The lack of good paying jobs for Americans is a major problem that no one man can solve. A 'short' 50 years ago when Jack Kennedy was president, America was the number one manufacturing nation on earth, by FAR. He and LBJ faced the real possibility of a huge surplus of tax revenue. Creating new jobs for the 21st century will require JFK like progressive ideas (space program) and thinking outside the box. I subscribe to the president's forward thinking on green jobs and a new 'Ike' infrastructure initiative. I wish there were someone in Congress with a backbone to work with him.

Also, I think one factor that doesn't get enough coverage is the Chinese government's unfair trade practices and their manipulation of the yuan. Unfortunately, they have us over a barrel with our pants down.

The greatest generation (WWII vets like my dad and yours) had it right in many ways. They grew up during the humbling Great Depression and learned some valuable lessons. But generally back then, Democrat or Republican, CEO or worker put the American PEOPLE first. We need to return to a society where patriotism is measured in human capital, and public service is considered the highest calling.

I look forward to conservations with you.

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[MaggieMae]

Here is a direct quote from my cousin Adolph Hitler himself.


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"


(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

All true dedicated Socialists feel the same way. When I was young, I was a Socialist. I am a conservative Democrat now, but I do believe in fair salaries for a fair day's work

In 1927, Hitler was busy building up support among the workers to further his political ambitions. He coddled them perfectly, and as I said, it was only when he was appointed Chancellor that he did an about-face.

German Social Democratic Party

The Social Democratic Party continued to be the largest party in the Weimar Republic until July 1932 when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) won 230 seats to the SDP's 133.

The SDP voted against the Enabling Act in March, 1933, which gave Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers. The Nazi Party banned the SDP in June 1933 and most of its leaders were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

The SDP was re-formed in 1959 and has taken part in several coalition governments in Germany in recent years.

 

[Neubarth]

Here is a direct quote from my cousin Adolph Hitler himself.


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"


(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

All true dedicated Socialists feel the same way. When I was young, I was a Socialist. I am a conservative Democrat now, but I do believe in fair salaries for a fair day's work

In 1927, Hitler was busy building up support among the workers to further his political ambitions. He coddled them perfectly, and as I said, it was only when he was appointed Chancellor that he did an about-face.

German Social Democratic Party

The Social Democratic Party continued to be the largest party in the Weimar Republic until July 1932 when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) won 230 seats to the SDP's 133.

The SDP voted against the Enabling Act in March, 1933, which gave Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers. The Nazi Party banned the SDP in June 1933 and most of its leaders were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

The SDP was re-formed in 1959 and has taken part in several coalition governments in Germany in recent years.

Now you are being more factual. Hitler saw the SDP as part of an old power order that was corrupt and infiltrated and controlled by monied interests. He was absolutely correct. Though I do not endorse what he did to them, I understand why. They were not socialists from his viewpoint.

 

[Neubarth]

Also, I think one factor that doesn't get enough coverage is the Chinese government's unfair trade practices and their manipulation of the yuan. Unfortunately, they have us over a barrel with our pants down.

You can assume that position.

From my viewpoint, we need to stand up to the Commies. Either they float their currency or we suspend any imports from their country. We'll see who is in charge here. Obama does not have the intelligence or the balls to see that as an answer to the commie attempts to destroy this country. He is an embarrassment to the United States and the free world.

 

[georgephillip]

If the real culprit here is an unsustainable debt overhead at all levels of society, individual, family, business, and all strata of government, America's version of Anglo-Saxon Capitalism needs viable competition.

One contender coming from Europe is "Social Capitalism," an economic third way that "allows businesses to be both competitive and socially responsible."

"(W)hether it's Paul Volcker calling for reinstatement of Glass-Steagall regulation of the banking sector, the United Steelworkers announcing an alliance with the Mondragon cooperatives in Spain to develop manufacturing cooperatives in the US, or Cleveland-based efforts to establish worker-owned co-ops in distressed communities, some solutions offered by groups like the Social Democrats in Germany have to get a fair hearing in this country.

Or the coming Great Depression 2.0 will make many of us susceptible to an American Hitler.

 

[MaggieMae]

Also, I think one factor that doesn't get enough coverage is the Chinese government's unfair trade practices and their manipulation of the yuan. Unfortunately, they have us over a barrel with our pants down.

You can assume that position.

From my viewpoint, we need to stand up to the Commies. Either they float their currency or we suspend any imports from their country. We'll see who is in charge here. Obama does not have the intelligence or the balls to see that as an answer to the commie attempts to destroy this country. He is an embarrassment to the United States and the free world.

Ohmagod, yeah, that's the ticket. Just allow Obama to tell China to fuck off is the answer. China needs us as much as we need China. Are you nuts? Here's your history lesson, as well as the status to date of US/Chinese relations. If you're looking for a presidential scapegoat, you'll need to go back all the way to Nixon, and of course every president since. Blaming Obama, which has become a hobby for some of you, would therefore appear to be your sole purpose in making those absurd statements.

Some exerpts:
China

China is now one of the most important markets for U.S. exports: in 2008, U.S. exports to China totaled $71.5 billion, a 9.5% increase of $16.2 billion from 2007. U.S. agricultural exports have increased dramatically, totaling $12.2 billion in 2009 and thus making China our fourth-largest agricultural export market. Leading categories include: soybeans ($7.3 billion), cotton ($1.6 billion), and hides and skins ($859 million).

Export growth continues to be a major driver of China's rapid economic growth. To increase exports, China has pursued policies such as fostering the rapid development of foreign-invested factories, which assemble imported components into consumer goods for export, and liberalizing trading rights. In its eleventh Five-Year Program, adopted in 2005, China placed greater emphasis on developing a consumer demand-driven economy to sustain economic growth and address global imbalances.

The United States is one of China's primary suppliers of power generating equipment, aircraft and parts, computers and industrial machinery, raw materials, and chemical and agricultural products. However, U.S. exporters continue to have concerns about fair market access due to strict testing and standards requirements for some imported products. In addition, a lack of transparency in the regulatory process makes it difficult for businesses to plan for changes in the domestic market structure.

In April 2009, the United States and China announced that the Joint Commission on Commerce and Trade (JCCT) will continue to serve as the primary venue for the two countries to discuss trade issues. Under the Obama administration, the JCCT, which will be led by Commerce Secretary Gary Locke and U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk on the U.S. side and Vice Premier Wang Qishan on the Chinese side, will not only focus on discussing trade issues, but will also include broader issues such as healthcare and innovation and industrial policies.

 

[MaggieMae]

Here is a direct quote from my cousin Adolph Hitler himself.


"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions"


(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

All true dedicated Socialists feel the same way. When I was young, I was a Socialist. I am a conservative Democrat now, but I do believe in fair salaries for a fair day's work

In 1927, Hitler was busy building up support among the workers to further his political ambitions. He coddled them perfectly, and as I said, it was only when he was appointed Chancellor that he did an about-face.

German Social Democratic Party

The Social Democratic Party continued to be the largest party in the Weimar Republic until July 1932 when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) won 230 seats to the SDP's 133.

The SDP voted against the Enabling Act in March, 1933, which gave Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers. The Nazi Party banned the SDP in June 1933 and most of its leaders were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

The SDP was re-formed in 1959 and has taken part in several coalition governments in Germany in recent years.

Now you are being more factual. Hitler saw the SDP as part of an old power order that was corrupt and infiltrated and controlled by monied interests. He was absolutely correct. Though I do not endorse what he did to them, I understand why. They were not socialists from his viewpoint.

I pulled up some "facts" to support what I said in my own words:

Hitler replaced all labor unions with one Nazi-controlled German Labor Front, and banned all political parties except his own.

It's okay to admit when you're wrong.

 

[Queecho Feecho]

OP - thank you for your service to our country.

That said, you sure spent a lot of time typing a rambling message that didn't make any clear points.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes, the answer to solving some of our countries problems go much futher than tea parties and knee jerk conservative ideology along with bleeding heart liberal agenda. It will take a combination of common sense, compassion, and most important, non-biased honesty to make it happen. This country is all of ours; not just fringe elements of society on both the right and left.

Doc

Hi Doc and welcome to USMB. Thank your for your service, and hope you find a happy home here. I also hope you will stick around to discuss the points made, and didn't just come in to 'post and run'.

Honesty, in my opinion, requires ability to see the positive and negative in all things, but I don't think one can have any opinions at all and be unbiased.

Bias in politics favors more government involvement or less government involvement and we are far more likely to look for solutions that fit our personal biases. Or we look for ways to defend our heroes and criticize the anti-heroes. But honesty includes hearing the argument of the other side too and being willing to look for the positives in that as well as recognizing the negatives in our own.

The healthcare bill is one example. Those of us who opposed that bill continue to recognize the negative implications and consequences as they are coming out more and more every day since the vote. At the same time, there are some components of that legislation that the same people would want preserved and included in what we would consider to be genuine and productive healthcare reform.

You can go right down the list of points in your essay and find areas of legitimate debate.

You may have a more difficult time finding thoughtful people on both sides to debate it, but every now and then that happens here on USMB.