What is happening in Kazakhstan?

Tom Paine 1949

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Mar 15, 2020
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Little is known yet about the real forces that were behind the recent violence. The situation seems to have stabilized for now, and there are reports that the several thousand Russian and CSTO forces will soon be withdrawn. Let us hope so. If even only a few thousand Russian troops remain too long, or are too obvious in everyday life, serious problems down the road may emerge in relations between Kazakhs and the large Russian minority population.

That Russian population is today around 19% of the total, less than half what it was just before the USSR collapsed. We are talking of some 3.5 million Russians out of about 19 million total. Even after 30 years of independence, and despite resentment from some Kazakhs, the Russian language still plays a crucial role in higher education and society as a whole. There are other minorities as well, at least partly because this area was where many suspect populations and individuals were sent in Stalinist times.

The arrest of the old security director on high treason charges, and other reports too, strongly indicate that a power struggle at the top opened the door to different forces from below. The Russian role, the American role, the role of criminal and tribal elements, the degree of repressed Kazakh / Russian conflict, the role if any of religion, these are all still unclear.

Kazakhstan is the size of West Europe, has a small population density and tremendous oil & gas resources. Hence there are immense temptations for elite corruption, as in Saudi Arabia, Libya and similar oil-producing countries.

We need to understand that the tiny civic freedom groups there, mostly underground, were NOT leading the struggle, and were evidently as surprised as others by its sudden outbreak and ferociousness.

The standard Western psychological profile of “imperial” Russians — applied to the recent Kazakhstan events — is misleading and obscures much. Kazakhs were a nomadic people who were first partly Russified and then transformed by their Soviet experience — not entirely for the worse. The “new” Kazakhstan that arose after independence eventually brought more wealth and much more inequality than existed under the final decades of the USSR. There are real conflicting geopolitical interests here, tremendous economic and social differences, as well as deep corruption. Though there is much hatred for rich and corrupt ruling groups in society, it is still far from clear that the recent violence inaugurated the beginning of any future “revolution against authoritarianism.”

Russia, not wanting any more “color revolutions” on its periphery, naturally made itself available to prop up the recently established Kazakh governing administration, suddenly faced with this unexpected and violent uprising. This was no Soviet “invasion” or “occupation” however. There are not enough Russians left for the political situation to resemble China’s Xinjiang. The Kazakhs — like the Uighurs a Turkic-speaking people — are mostly Muslims, but have never been religious fanatics. Still, their nationalist pride is growing.

Splits among Kazakh’s own kleptocratic factions in the country’s domestic ruling class, and in its security forces, may have precipitated the violence. But what lies deeper is unclear. Was there any role of “foreign influencers” in bribing certain factions to take action? Was everything spontaneous? We may never know. We do not even know if there are any “domestic oligarchs” or political factions genuinely interested in bringing democracy to the country.

It will be interesting to see if the great Western oil and commercial interests, like Chevron, that have been allowed in recent decades to grow dramatically and now have huge sums invested there, will continue to be welcome. We shouldn’t assume that the West really has the best interests of the people of Kazakhstan in mind, anymore than our corporations and military have had the real interests of the people of the Middle East in mind. The best future for the people of landlocked Kazakhstan will almost certainly require careful balancing of trade and relations with Russia, China and the West.
 
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Little is known yet about the real forces that were behind the recent violence. The situation seems to have stabilized for now, and there are reports that the several thousand Russian and CSTO forces will soon be withdrawn. Let us hope so. If even only a few thousand Russian troops remain too long, or are too obvious in everyday life, serious problems down the road may emerge in relations between Kazakhs and the large Russian minority population.

That Russian population is today around 19% of the total, less than half what it was just before the USSR collapsed. We are talking of some 3.5 million Russians out of about 19 million total. Even after 30 years of independence, and despite resentment from some Kazakhs, the Russian language still plays a crucial role in higher education and society as a whole. There are other minorities as well, at least partly because this area was where many suspect populations and individuals were sent in Stalinist times.

The arrest of the old security director on high treason charges, and other reports too, strongly indicate that a power struggle at the top opened the door to different forces from below. The Russian role, the American role, the role of criminal and tribal elements, the degree of repressed Kazakh / Russian conflict, the role if any of religion, these are all still unclear.

Kazakhstan is the size of West Europe, has a small population density and tremendous oil & gas resources. Hence there are immense temptations for elite corruption, as in Saudi Arabia, Libya and similar oil-producing countries.

We need to understand that the tiny civic freedom groups there, mostly underground, were NOT leading the struggle, and were evidently as surprised as others by its sudden outbreak and ferociousness.

The standard Western psychological profile of “imperial” Russians — applied to the recent Kazakhstan events — is misleading and obscures much. Kazakhs were a nomadic people who were first partly Russified and then transformed by their Soviet experience — not entirely for the worse. The “new” Kazakhstan that arose after independence eventually brought more wealth and much more inequality than existed under the final decades of the USSR. There are real conflicting geopolitical interests here, tremendous economic and social differences, as well as deep corruption. Though there is much hatred for rich and corrupt ruling groups in society, it is still far from clear that the recent violence inaugurated the beginning of any future “revolution against authoritarianism.”

Russia, not wanting any more “color revolutions” on its periphery, naturally made itself available to prop up the recently established Kazakh governing administration, suddenly faced with this unexpected and violent uprising. This was no Soviet “invasion” or “occupation” however. There are not enough Russians left for the political situation to resemble China’s Xinjiang. The Kazakhs — like the Uighurs a Turkic-speaking people — are mostly Muslims, but have never been religious fanatics. Still, their nationalist pride is growing.

Splits among Kazakh’s own kleptocratic factions in the country’s domestic ruling class, and in its security forces, may have precipitated the violence. But what lies deeper is unclear. Was there any role of “foreign influencers” in bribing certain factions to take action? Was everything spontaneous? We may never know. We do not even know if there are any “domestic oligarchs” or political factions genuinely interested in bringing democracy to the country.

It will be interesting to see if the great Western oil and commercial interests, like Chevron, that have been allowed in recent decades to grow dramatically and now have huge sums invested there, will continue to be welcome. We shouldn’t assume that the West really has the best interests of the people of Kazakhstan in mind, anymore than our corporations and military have had the real interests of the people of the Middle East in mind. The best future for the people of landlocked Kazakhstan will almost certainly require careful balancing of trade and relations with Russia, China and the West.
The oil resources are a huge factor Tom, but there is another overriding factor that needs to be mentioned. America is in a life or death struggle against both Russia and China for world supremacy, and thus the capture of the world's wealth of resources.
That is the overriding reason why there are ongoing struggles in both Kazahkstand and the Ukraine. Russia's chances of retaining it's world power status are over if the US can wrestle away Kazahkstan from the Russian fold, and also the Ukraine to a slightly lesser degree.

The two sides have established the necessary talking point. America must convince all interested parties that it is defending both countries from Russia. (that's developing now in Kazahkstan)

The Russian must convince the same parties that it's protecting against US expansion, under the Nato flag.

And of course America's advantage is in the power it has over Russia's economy, as America attempts to gather sympathy for more and more crippling sanctions against Russia.

If Russia has an ace or two in the hole, it is in Putin's/Russia's resolve, and also the possibility that their chances of a strong military (and economic) alliance with China and the various countries that choose to side against the US.

Your narrative above tells the story adequately well, with only the exception I've explained. Of which I am assuming you are in agreement with.
 
Do you have any evidence to back up your statements above?

Other than pattern recognition?

Not directly.

The flame is still hot.

Rest assured that in the following six months volumes will be released.

Same shit different nation.

Come on dude...do you actually think all of this shit surrrrrrounding Russia lately is fucking organic?
 
CIA, and George Sorros are what is 'happening' in Kazakhstan.

More color revolution bullshit.

More western destabilization.

Same shit, different place.

Wash, rinse, repeat.
(my bold)
There's some truth in what you have said but your presentation hurts your position.

While Tom and I are appealing to a much more discriminating faction.
 
Other than pattern recognition?

Not directly.

The flame is still hot.

Rest assured that in the following six months volumes will be released.

Same shit different nation.

Come on dude...do you actually think all of this shit surrrrrrounding Russia lately is fucking organic?
Then on the other hand, this one is going to be effective with those who aren't already propagandized into swallowing the Russia hating and the perception that it's all just Russia's fault.
Tom's OP was quite balanced and so now we have to hear where he's trying to go with this?
 
It was about a fuel crisis and the protests became a coup attempt or so says the Khazak President.
 
(my bold)
There's some truth in what you have said but your presentation hurts your position.

While Tom and I are appealing to a much more discriminating faction.
Lord Fauntleroy.

My intent, though rough, is sincere.

I am but the progeny of a poor burlap monger.

When I was four our ox was stolen and I was forced to labor in it's stead.

These things cause one to go, a bit, sour.

However I can assure you that, though humble there is always food on thine table, and I never drink on the lord's day.

I prithee the kind understanding of your grace.

Perhaps I can powder your wig?

(gesticulates)
 
Lord Fauntleroy.

My intent, though rough, is sincere.

I am but the progeny of a poor burlap monger.

When I was four our ox was stolen and I was forced to labor in it's stead.

These things cause one to go, a bit, sour.

However I can assure you that, though humble there is always food on thine table, and I never drink on the lord's day.

I prithee the kind understanding of your grace.

Perhaps I can powder your wig?

(gesticulates)
Excellent! I can completely understand your frustration now that you've said more. And besides, it probably makes little difference on how the case is presented here.

One thing I've noticed though is the curious way Tom Payne has of presenting well written OP narrative, but then usually disappears before getting into any kind of detailed discussion.

Do however stick around to make your case. Maybe a little bit more clearly directed against Tom's case could be a good strategy.

However, note too that Tom got in a case against China by promoting the idea that the Uighurs aren't Muslim terrorists. Quite like a professional, wouldn't you think?
 
My OP is not meant to prove anything or make grandiose arguments. I have been researching a bit the issue and would like to hear anybody else’s informed opinions.

Most Westerners understandably haven’t much information about this part of the world. It is obvious (to me anyway) that most people who write here just try to shoe-horn the news into their already set views, mostly reflecting prejudices for or against Putin, U.S. imperialism, or even … George Soros.

Frankly, that seems to me worse than useless.
 
the great Western oil and commercial interests, like Chevron, that have been allowed in recent decades to grow dramatically and now have huge sums invested there, will continue to be welcome. We shouldn’t assume that the West really has the best interests of the people of Kazakhstan in mind, anymore than our corporations and military have had the real interests of the people of the Middle East in mind. The best future for the people of landlocked Kazakhstan will almost certainly require careful balancing of trade and relations with Russia, China and the West.
Evolution's Sore Losers

Why should we care what is in the best interests of primitive and unproductive Muslim savages?
 
Who fuckin' cares? Not my circus, not my monkey.
Nobody is asking you to care, or making you read my OP.
Please go troll somewhere else.

Frankly, I can’t imagine why anyone would care …
about you, your circus, or the monkey on your back.
 
My OP is not meant to prove anything or make grandiose arguments. I have been researching a bit the issue and would like to hear anybody else’s informed opinions.

Most Westerners understandably haven’t much information about this part of the world. It is obvious (to me anyway) that most people who write here just try to shoe-horn the news into their already set views, mostly reflecting prejudices for or against Putin, U.S. imperialism, or even … George Soros.

Frankly, that seems to me worse than useless.
Most Westerners don't care to know anything deeper than US propaganda Tom. And I don't think you've said anything of importance that departs from that propaganda. You even got in the party line on China and the Uighurs, and that suspicious of your effort to not suggest anything new.

Look Tom, the US has started about 40 wars of aggression since the end of WW2. Be honest and objective or you're only fooling the already indoctrinated.

Is there any possibility in your mind that it's the US goal to instigate trouble in Ukraine, Kazakhstand, and China? You didn't mention that possibility.

The Kazakhs — like the Uighurs a Turkic-speaking people — are mostly Muslims, but have never been religious fanatics.

Who told you that?
 
Same to the trolling “ The Sage of Main Street. “

By the way, some of the protesters were skilled oil workers. Many were evidently ordinary workers legitimately furious with a dictatorship that enriches corrupt millionaire politicians and ignores their fundamental interests. Why do you assume they were all just “primitive and unproductive Muslim savages”?
 
Is there any possibility in your mind that it's the US goal to instigate trouble in Ukraine, Kazakhstand, and China? You didn't mention that possibility. — Donald H
This OP is not about Ukraine and China, where I have made my position clear many times.

As you should know by now, I am one of the fiercest opponents here of U.S. imperialism and of its destructive and adventurist wars abroad. I am an opponent of our “Security State” and its mistaken policies toward China and Russia. I am also an opponent of Russian and Chinese authoritarianism. Are you?

As for U.S. directly instigating the protests, I’ve found no sign of that — but of course it remains clear that Western NGOs were legally present in the country, even U.S. government financed ones. Most big U.S. oil corporations active there have been reasonably satisfied with the role of the old dictatorship over the last decades — which helped them earn big profits for the requisite bribes. The fact is that the new Russian capitalist oligarchs under Putin, like the corrupt Kazakh government connected oligarchs, like the U.S. oil companies, all have created the conditions that have led to the present explosion.

As for rising Kazakh Islamic jihadi sentiment, this is certainly possible, and is a big danger in nearby states like Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. I am interested in any reports about this. But many sources and researchers attest to the relative absence of such sentiments among Kazakhs in the last 50 years. Here is a useful article about Kazakh life from around 2006:

Culture of Kazakhstan - history, people, traditions, women, beliefs, food, customs, family, social
 
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Same to the trolling “ The Sage of Main Street. “
Many were evidently ordinary workers legitimately furious with a dictatorship that enriches corrupt millionaire politicians and ignores their fundamental interests.

As is the case in America and it's form of greedy capitalism. All it takes is a foreign propaganda interest to put the dissatisfaction to work. Or in America's case, Trump to promise and then attempt to overthrow democracy when he fails to procure the opportunity.

This is about outside foreign interference that is opposed to Russia's interests, as is the case in Ukraine and so many more past and present experiences. Lackman made the point in a cruder way..

Come on dude...do you actually think all of this shit surrrrrrounding Russia lately is fucking organic?

I'll add China.
 

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