What Foreigners Don't Understand About America

[Toro]

Neoconservatism and The Chicago School are two very, very different philosophies, though uninformed people like Naomi Klein seem to mix the two differing belief systems.

 

[Shogun]

I never thought of the OECD, the Bureau of Economic Analysis and the National Bureau of Economic Research as "free market think tanks," but if that makes you feel better, okay.



Shogy...

I ain't gonna spend five minutes of my time watching this. Give me the Readers Digest version, then I will tell you what's going to happen over the next 20 years in 10 sentences of less.

20 years? try a video that IS ALREADY almost 20 years old. You wanna recap? Greenspan gets his ass handed to him for espousing bullshit "free market" mantras despite the FACT of our economic trend of jettison market share. Thats the thing, toro.. You can predict all you want like the oracle of delphi all day long but, as has been the economic fact, your ideology just doesn't pan out. This senator was telling Ole Al the same shit in the early 90s that Im telling you today.

and yes, when capitalists have inflitrated the OECD, the Bureau of Economic Analysis and the National Bureau of Economic Research then their failing ideologies is what they will sell to you as if it means more than they are proven not to. Were you similarly shocked to find out that a conservative president sets up an abstinence only standard in sex ed as the "official" policy despite it's failure evident in LESS time than some 20 spread?

 

[Shogun]

Neoconservatism and The Chicago School are two very, very different philosophies, though uninformed people like Naomi Klein seem to mix the two differing belief systems.

it's always someone else who is uninformed, isn't it? Despite market facts even, right?


GM: Less than 20% Market Share for May, Some Analysts say
June 02, 2008

Some analysts predict General Motors may see its share of the U.S. vehicle market slipl below 20 percent on Tuesday when the auto industry reports May vehicle sales.

However, a forecast by Edmunds.com, parent of AutoObserver, predicts GM will stay above the 20-percent mark, coming in at 20.9 percent market share for the month. GM's market share slumped to 20.8 percent in April, according to Edmunds.com's calculations.



Forecasting firm Autodata Corp. figured GM's market share in April at a record low of 20.5 percent in April and predicts its sales decline in May could be enough to pull its share below 20 percent. "That could happen very easily," Ron Pinelli, president of Autodata, a market researcher based in Woodcliff Lake, N.J., told the Wall Street Journal in Monday's edition.

At the other end of the spectrum, Edmunds.com forecasts Toyota will post record market share of 18.1 percent, up from 17.3 percent last May and 17.5 percent in April.

GM: Less than 20% Market Share for May, Some Analysts say - Auto Observer




but yes.. it's ALWAYS someone else who is ignorant... even if a Senator back from the early 90s knew what kind of hokey shit free market capitalists were selling...

 

[Toro]

20 years? try a video that IS ALREADY almost 20 years old. You wanna recap? Greenspan gets his ass handed to him for espousing bullshit "free market" mantras despite the FACT of our economic trend of jettison market share. Thats the thing, toro.. You can predict all you want like the oracle of delphi all day long but, as has been the economic fact, your ideology just doesn't pan out. This senator was telling Ole Al the same shit in the early 90s that Im telling you today.

and yes, when capitalists have inflitrated the OECD, the Bureau of Economic Analysis and the National Bureau of Economic Research then their failing ideologies is what they will sell to you as if it means more than they are proven not to. Were you similarly shocked to find out that a conservative president sets up an abstinence only standard in sex ed as the "official" policy despite it's failure evident in LESS time than some 20 spread?

This is not a serious line of reasoning.

First of all, its amusing to read someone proclaim that the OECD, the NBER and the BEA all have overarching political agendas to foist an ideological agenda upon the world. All it does is expose the extreme political biases of the person making the argument. It is not a serious criticism. It makes me laugh.

Second, this incessant harping on the auto industry as evidence that America has been in terminal decline is specious. GM's share is below 20%? BFD. Stop whining about the evil foreigners and make cars people want. Got some news for you Shogun - when you are so heavily geared towards light trucks as GM is, with gas at $4 a gallon, they're going to lose even more share. Whoa, can't see that coming! Just like you just couldn't see the decline 20 years ago because foreign cars continually had higher satisfaction levels than cars made by Detroit. But, let's not blame ourselves. We're never wrong. The consumer is wrong.

You want to keep talking about GM? How about we talk about Intel? Or Cisco? Or Microsoft? Or Apple? Or Google? Or eBay? These are companies that either didn't exist 20 years ago or were small companies. Today, these American companies rule the world in business. But let's ignore these companies and keep wistfully pining for the 1950s.

And finally, manufacturing output in this country continues to rise. But you'd never know it listening to you, Shogun, because the only thing that matters to the country is GM's market share.

Change We Can Believe In Is All Around Us - WSJ.com

 

[Shogun]

Ah yes.. the some ole rosy bullshit from a capitalist who wold insist that our economy is NOT floundering despite what any schmoe off of the street will tell you. Indeed, I wonder how many "i dont give a fuck because im taking my money and running to the next gig" capitalist eat that shit up, toro?

Again, you can disregard the FACT of Greenspans' ass being handed to him, our sour economy which is the direct product of your favorite economic schema, and the result of allowing multi-national conglomerates such leeway all you want, dude. At the end of the day, trying to strawman MICROSOFT and YAHOO won't validate your bullshit free market wet dream. The evidence doesn't lie in some masterful stats with a nice glossy graph and circles and arrows and it sure as hell isn't impressive to cry demagogue just because your crackpipe theories just didn't pan out over the last 30 years.



And, regarding GMs products, people WANT Suvs and trucks but can't afford them because of, SHOCKER, another capitalist scheme in the oil industry. You think no one else sees the little turd marionette you dangle and try to pass off as gold, dude? Not to mention, and this is why you probably wanted to avoid the above video, that JAPAN IS A CLOSED MARKET AND THEIR SUCCESS PROVES THAT YOUR OPINION IS A BUNCH OF CRAP.



Mandelson attacks Japan's closed market

Peter Mandelson, the EU External Trade Commissioner, has condemned Japan’s hostility towards foreign investors as a “globalisation paradox” that could lead to companies turning their backs on the world’s second-biggest economy.

In a speech in Tokyo today, Mr Mandelson described Japan as the most closed developed market in the world and that imbalances of investment between the EU and Japan were “truly staggering”.

His remarks come as many funds and corporate investors have either dramatically curbed their ambitions in Japan or decided to close their positions there altogether.

Many of them cite growing despair that Japan will ever embrace the principles of shareholder capitalism, or drop its scepticism of foreign investors.

Takao Kitabata, the top bureaucrat in the Japanese Ministry for the Economy, Trade and Industry, recently described short-term stock investors as “greedy, irresponsible fools to whom voting rights should never be given”.

More than 400 listed Japanese companies have adopted poison-pill strategies in an effort to forestall any takeover attempts by outsiders, and many hundreds more have built “cross-shareholding” networks with friendly companies to discourage further any unwanted bids.

Mandelson attacks Japan's closed market - Times Online

IF ONLY AB had half the chance of any given Japanese company, eh? Then again, Japan seems to place their nation above the value of your paper wealth. And look what they have achieved. You wanna talk about TECH? Try finding a fucking PROCESSOR CHIP factory in the US.



This may be greek to you but the rest of us can read it just fine.

"Unemployed? Hungry? Eat your Japanese car."

While his views are surely contentious, Rice does point out that many foreign markets like Japan, which is home to GM and Ford's largest competitors, levy large tariffs against imports in their own countries. He also points out that while many foreign automobiles can now claim to be "Made in America" due to their assembly at foreign-owned plants on American soil, these vehicles are still comprised of foreign made parts that in no way benefit local economies.

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/11/28/unemployed-hungry-eat-your-japanese-car/

yes, it seems your crystal ball isn't broken at all, dude.

 

[Shogun]

oh, and regarding your WSJ OPINION piece? whoopty fucking do. A capitalist is as blinded by theoretical bullshit as you are. WOW. Im really shocked. Truly. Someone build a statue to commemorate this historic event. Indeed, by brushing off a floundeing economy as "well, it reminds me of the industrial revolution" pretty much shows how limited your scope really is.

 

[Chris]

The reasons for our economic problems....

1. 28 years of ignoring our dependence on foreign oil

2. The tax cut and spend policies of Bush and Reagan

3. Bush's occupation of Iraq

 

[Toro]

oh, and regarding your WSJ OPINION piece? whoopty fucking do. A capitalist is as blinded by theoretical bullshit as you are. WOW. Im really shocked. Truly. Someone build a statue to commemorate this historic event. Indeed, by brushing off a floundeing economy as "well, it reminds me of the industrial revolution" pretty much shows how limited your scope really is.

Ad hominem attack that is irrelevant to the issue.

American manufacturing output has continued to increase, despite the hysterical comments.

 

[Toro]

Ah yes.. the some ole rosy bullshit from a capitalist who wold insist that our economy is NOT floundering despite what any schmoe off of the street will tell you. Indeed, I wonder how many "i dont give a fuck because im taking my money and running to the next gig" capitalist eat that shit up, toro?

Again, you can disregard the FACT of Greenspans' ass being handed to him, our sour economy which is the direct product of your favorite economic schema, and the result of allowing multi-national conglomerates such leeway all you want, dude. At the end of the day, trying to strawman MICROSOFT and YAHOO won't validate your bullshit free market wet dream. The evidence doesn't lie in some masterful stats with a nice glossy graph and circles and arrows and it sure as hell isn't impressive to cry demagogue just because your crackpipe theories just didn't pan out over the last 30 years.

Usually, dogmatic ideologues who are confronted with empirical evidence try to attack the data. Your strategy seems to be to swear a lot. That's novel.

It's amusing that you dismiss out of hand the tremendous successes of American technology companies while you are typing on a machine whose intellectual content was developed almost entirely by American ingenuity. I'm sure the irony is lost on you.

 

[Paulie]

Here's what the Chicago School of Economics genuses want us to believe, folks.

That they had NO IDEA that:

1. offshoring tens of millions of jobs; PLUS,

2.allowing corporation to shelter their money from taxation off shore;
PLUS,

3. giving trillions of dollars in tax breaks to the people who doing the aforementions things to America; PLUS,

4. getting us into an expensive war and occupation of TWO ASIAN NATIONS ...

...WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fact that they convinced starry eyed I just read Atlas Shrugged and Oh my god! it's like the most brilliant thing I've ever read libertopians doesn't surprise me, since most of them are conceited enough to think they're John Galt and are somday going to dine at the Mansion with the super wealthy.

But you cannot convince me that any honest economist could possible imagine that the above policies wouldn't BANKRUPT the national goverment AND the people, too.

Anyone who supports the neo-cons must truly hate their nation and th epeople in it, because those policies are likely to make us a banana republic in the next generation or so.

Welcome to BananAmerica. folks.

Compliments of neo-con masters of our universe and the class traitors and goverment haters who supported them.

Where do you get the idea that the Chicago school and neoconservatism are the same?

 

[Shogun]

Ad hominem attack that is irrelevant to the issue.

American manufacturing output has continued to increase, despite the hysterical comments.

about as irrelevant as a friggin BLOG?

American manufacturing output doesn't equate American manufacturing JOBS. You try and pull fast ones on the nomenclature much like those who reporr unemployment rates are only using data from unemployment claims rather than reflecting on a total percentage for unemployed Americans.

But hey.. who needs reality when you've got some stats and a shiny, glossy line graph?

 

[Shogun]

Usually, dogmatic ideologues who are confronted with empirical evidence try to attack the data. Your strategy seems to be to swear a lot. That's novel.

It's amusing that you dismiss out of hand the tremendous successes of American technology companies while you are typing on a machine whose intellectual content was developed almost entirely by American ingenuity. I'm sure the irony is lost on you.

I enjoy the descriptive range of vocab entrenched in profanity. so fucking sue me.

And, a TINY percentage of success stories don't convey the whole picture of our economy. Hell, SOMEONE was making a profit during the Great Depression. Again, WHOOP T FUCKING DO.

American ingenuity my ass. Again, SHOW ME A SINGLE microprocessor factory in the US. SHOW ME a major company that has not jettisoned their customer support to india. YOu may have a hard on for a fractional percentage at the top of the class heirarchy getting their profit on but it's not at all impressive to the rest of us who gets to starve at the whim of bastard capitalists. ASSEMBLED IN AMERICA really isn't the same as MADE IN AMERICA, dude.


I get the impression you'd be all for child labor if you thought it would provide the slightest investment increase for your portfolio. But, thats pretty typical, isn't it.

 

[Toro]

about as irrelevant as a friggin BLOG?

American manufacturing output doesn't equate American manufacturing JOBS. You try and pull fast ones on the nomenclature much like those who reporr unemployment rates are only using data from unemployment claims rather than reflecting on a total percentage for unemployed Americans.

But hey.. who needs reality when you've got some stats and a shiny, glossy line graph?

The data comes from the St Louis Fed.

There's nothing special about manufacturing jobs. They had lots of manufacturing jobs in the USSR, producing a bunch of shit nobody needed. But they had manufacturing jobs, which is what matters.

Buy hey, who needs science when you've got some anecdotes?

 

[Shogun]

SCIENCE? you call hiding behind erroneous stats SCIENCE? sucker, please.


Again, "production" doesn't speak on EMPLOYMENT. Finding a cheaper way to cut jobs doesn't increase the social value of production. If 1 out of 100 people provides food there is still no value unless those other 99 can afford the price of the product. by marginalizing those 99 with bullshit globalist free trade capitalist theories you do nothing but shoot yourself in the foot wondering why no one can buy the shit being produced.. Take a gander at the housing market in this brittle economy and put your devious statistics back in the shit bin where you found them.



Indeed, it's people like you that CAUSED people like Marx.

 

[Toro]

I enjoy the descriptive range of vocab entrenched in profanity. so fucking sue me.

And, a TINY percentage of success stories don't convey the whole picture of our economy. Hell, SOMEONE was making a profit during the Great Depression. Again, WHOOP T FUCKING DO.

A "tiny" percentage? Is this a joke? The value of the technology industry in the United States is far greater than the manufacturing industry has ever been.

American ingenuity my ass. Again, SHOW ME A SINGLE microprocessor factory in the US.

Here are several American fabs for Texas Instruments.
FABS

Should I show you more?

I could find call centers based in America, but I don't feel like expending the energy at the moment.

YOu may have a hard on for a fractional percentage at the top of the class heirarchy getting their profit on but it's not at all impressive to the rest of us who gets to starve at the whim of bastard capitalists. ASSEMBLED IN AMERICA really isn't the same as MADE IN AMERICA, dude.

Stop being a ranting incoherent Leftard. Just for a minute.

For the past 40 years, income inequality in this country has been rising. It has been especially severe this decade. I had read somewhere that the share of the top 1% of wealth in this country is now more concentrated than at any time since the days of the Robber Barons.

This is not good for a bunch of reasons. So I have no problems increasing taxes on the people who make the most and using the funds to increase training or social assistance or education or whatever. According to the poll above, that puts me in the distinct minority of Americans who believe that government should not redistribute income but should instead focus on increasing opportunity.

One reason why rising inequality is bad is because the population will often try to fix this problem through the political process. That can lead to good outcomes but it can also lead to bad outcomes. Protecting manufacturing jobs for the sake of protecting manufacturing jobs is a very bad outcome because it increases the costs for everybody and makes the country collectively poorer. Its good for the person who works in the factory but its bad for everybody else. Making things more expensive is like giving everyone a pay cut. That's not smart.

I get the impression you'd be all for child labor if you thought it would provide the slightest investment increase for your portfolio. But, thats pretty typical, isn't it.

Yes, it is pretty typical for you to make silly comments.

 

[Toro]

SCIENCE? you call hiding behind erroneous stats SCIENCE? sucker, please.

"Erroneous?" You don't know they're erroneous. You offer nothing but anecdotes and rantings.

Again, "production" doesn't speak on EMPLOYMENT. Finding a cheaper way to cut jobs doesn't increase the social value of production. If 1 out of 100 people provides food there is still no value unless those other 99 can afford the price of the product. by marginalizing those 99 with bullshit globalist free trade capitalist theories you do nothing but shoot yourself in the foot wondering why no one can buy the shit being produced.. Take a gander at the housing market in this brittle economy and put your devious statistics back in the shit bin where you found them.

You don't know how to interpret data and what it means. If it clearly contradicts your argument, you say its wrong. Oh, I'm sorry, you say its "fucking" wrong. The fact that you are linking the problems of the national housing market with manufacturing clearly demonstrates this, as if collapsing home prices in Nevada, Arizona or Florida have anything to do with manufacturing.

Indeed, it's people like you that CAUSED people like Marx.

And it people like you that have caused economies to collapse. Thankfully, few listen to such nonsense anymore.

 

[Shogun]

"Erroneous?" You don't know they're erroneous. You offer nothing but anecdotes and rantings.

no, I offer the needle that bursts your silly little devious bubble.


You don't know how to interpret data and what it means. If it clearly contradicts your argument, you say its wrong. Oh, I'm sorry, you say its "fucking" wrong. The fact that you are linking the problems of the national housing market with manufacturing clearly demonstrates this, as if collapsing home prices in Nevada, Arizona or Florida have anything to do with manufacturing.

dude, OUTPUT IS NOT EMPLOYMENT. Read the fucking graph. YOU posted it.

and yes, if a population isn't working and can't afford their fucking mortgage then YES it DOES have plenty to do with the housing market. For real, dude. If you can't fathom how connected EMPLOYMENT is with making a fucking house payment then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't fathom how the reduction of labor VALUE, or the total outsourcing thereof, effects a budget then we can stop right now.


And it people like you that have caused economies to collapse. Thankfully, few listen to such nonsense anymore.


HA!

yea, because it's been people like me pulling the strings over the last 40 fucking years, eh dude? FUNNY JOKES, lemme tellya.


still avoiding that video of Greenspan having his ASS handed to him almost 20 fucking years ago, eh? I know I know... you've got a chart that says OUTPUT has increased so that must mean something. Your problem is that you are used to talking with people who trust your economic judgment despite the facts on the ground. We haven't seen "people like me" around since the last HUNGRY? EAT YOUR IMPORT drive back in the 80s. Since then, people like YOU have given us NAFTA and every other bullshit capitalist scheme that works damn well for your pocket book at the expense of the American public.

Like I said, YOU are the exact reason why marx specifically mentioned the people who OWN the means of production. You, sir, can kiss my proletariat ass.

 

[Shogun]

A "tiny" percentage? Is this a joke? The value of the technology industry in the United States is far greater than the manufacturing industry has ever been.

NOT WHEN EVRY FUCKING JOB GETS OUTSOURCED TO INDIA.

have any luck finding a fucking microprocessor made in AMERICA yet?


Here are several American fabs for Texas Instruments.
FABS


Texas Instruments to invest $1B in RP
Business - Texas Instruments to invest $1B in RP - INQUIRER.net

EXPORTING AMERICA
CNN.com

yea dude.. im three shades of impressed, lemme tellya.



Should I show you more?

by all means.


I could find call centers based in America, but I don't feel like expending the energy at the moment.


sue you can. there are SOME call centers but why don't you take your valuable time and call a few and see what accent you come up with.


Stop being a ranting incoherent Leftard. Just for a minute.


stop being an unapologetic capitalist for once and take a gander at how your business practices are kicking AMERICA in the employment balls. You grand fucking scheme IS EXACTLY WHY there is a growing disparity between the rich and the poor. You are killing off middle america for the sake of your wallet. It's a goddamn joke that you think everything is just peachy and that utopia is just over the free trade horizon.


For the past 40 years, income inequality in this country has been rising. It has been especially severe this decade. I had read somewhere that the share of the top 1% of wealth in this country is now more concentrated than at any time since the days of the Robber Barons.


gosh, capitalist, thats a SHOCKER. I guess it's just my paranoid leftism that can comprehend that it's YOUR actions that cause this... Keep telling yourself that.



This is not good for a bunch of reasons. So I have no problems increasing taxes on the people who make the most and using the funds to increase training or social assistance or education or whatever. According to the poll above, that puts me in the distinct minority of Americans who believe that government should not redistribute income but should instead focus on increasing opportunity.


lemme guess. "increased opportunty" amounts to tax cuts for people who already push to minimize the cost of labor, eh? Another logical fallacy and the EXACT reason we have a federal minimum wage, no less.


One reason why rising inequality is bad is because the population will often try to fix this problem through the political process. That can lead to good outcomes but it can also lead to bad outcomes. Protecting manufacturing jobs for the sake of protecting manufacturing jobs is a very bad outcome because it increases the costs for everybody and makes the country collectively poorer. Its good for the person who works in the factory but its bad for everybody else. Making things more expensive is like giving everyone a pay cut. That's not smart.


oh bullshit, dude. "collectively poorer"? What, as opposed to INDIVIDUALLY (see fat ass oil tycoon) richer? No, as was evident in the 50s when people could work and support a family, manufacturing jobs or jobs in general that re not outsourced to fucking india, IS a necessity for a stable american economy even if the cost of such doesn't allow your beloved uber rich to have that extra wealth. Making things LESS expensive at the cost of overall employment doesn't facilitate a stable economy. Take a look at the cheap plastic shit from china we all buy at wal mart. Mom and pop stores go out of business just so we can have PICKLES cheaper? You dangle a rotten carrot, dude.


Yes, it is pretty typical for you to make silly comments.


ahh yes.. the self righteous cop out from a guy hoping that the masses cant read his posted graph. Gosh, we sure haven't seen THAT before.. you know, as in that video of Greenspan declaring the same while having his ass handed to him by a senator TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO?

 

[Toro]

Cheers Shogun. I hope you have a good evening.

 

[Shogun]

You too, sir. I hope yours is a fine evening as well.