What do you want from government?

[ThePickledPunk]

Huh?

We do not need other countries to like us. Warm, fuzzy feelings are not important in International affairs. Respect is.

Sorry, but other countries have a direct bearing on our own well being anymore, in the financial world, the environment, trade, technology, you name it. The U.S. is no longer numero uno in many of these areas, particularly education. We import scientists and engineers because it costs our own children (and their parents) a small fortune to send them to college to learn the same talents that foreigners learn for nothing. The world's economy nearly collapsed because of the failure of American financial institutions that had a ripple effect on global credit and trade. We are hated by certain radical people in the Mideast and Southeast Asia because of our military presence in those areas. How would people in this country react if China had a huge military base located somewhere in the Midwest? Do some homework. The only way to make sure another world war doesn't break out is if we cooperate with one another and at least assure detente among those nations we perceive as enemies and who perceive us as enemies as well.

Read: if the US is just a little nicer all will be well. Appeasement is the answer....

 

[MaggieMae]

Dude nailed it.

NO way. The preamble to the Constitution tells us in 52 words that the nation's reason for being can be reduced to six principles:

Society
Justice
Peace
Security
Commonwealth
Freedom

I want a government that abides by our Constitution and nothing else. Everything else is states issues.

I want a SCOTUS who applied the law in accordance with the Constitution and does not lean left or right.

I'd like our politicians to write bills in plain English, read them before they sign them, and attach nothing to any bill to slide crap through that should not go through.

I'd like to expand treason to cover desception of 'we, the people'.
I presume you mean to cover only YOU people, who happen to have a different viewpoint on the Constitutional rights of ALL people, no? Otherwise, I don't get what you're saying.

I'd like all our politicians to be honest and work for the common good of 'we, the people'.

I'd like the only special interest group to be 'we, the people'.

If we were still a country of 72 million, not 325 million, still drove around in buggies and used pony express for communication, then yes, we could abide only by the Constitution. But the framers were not stupid, and they specifically designed the Constitution to be a living document, subject to modernization. That's why where are so many ambiguous clauses therein.

 

[MaggieMae]

We do not need other countries to like us. Warm, fuzzy feelings are not important in International affairs. Respect is.

They do not have to like us, but it helps.
Any country has to deal with the people it represents. If the US is hated by the people, they will not stand for concessions or compromises with the US.
If the people respect the US and consider them a friend they will come down on their government in our favor.

Respect is also important. George Bush was not respected or trusted. hat is why he had such difficulty forming alliances

The "cant we all just get along" approach to international politics.........

And what's wrong with that? Do you not try to get along with your significant other? Your children? Your peers and your boss? Or do you just strut around with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude? How far does that get you?

 

[MaggieMae]

Add it up maggs.

it's not solely income tax as I believe you are assuming.

Add up every tax you pay and you will find that the average American pays more in taxes than they do for housing, food and clothing combined.

I don't, and never did. Where I live there is no tax on food. The property tax is probably minimally accounted for in rentals, but that is nominal. So unless you purchase big ticket items every year and own a home, at least here, there's no way in hell taxes add up to 50% or more of earnings.

You don't think the landlord builds the cost of his property taxes into the rent payment? Indirectly, the renter is paying that tax.
I said that.

If you own a car, you are paying hidden taxes/fees, registration, property tax, gasoline tax, something. Maybe you use public transportation, as far as I am aware of, every public transit system is supported through a tax of some sort, usually a sales tax.
All I'm saying is that there is no fucking way it amounts to 50% overall. AND you can either write those taxes off if you file the long form or the exemption amount takes into consideration a certain percentage everyone pays in these "hidden" taxes.

You might want to investigate a little more.
I have. And if you did your own taxes every year, you would know that I'm right.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/94197-i-work-for-the-government.html

........

 

[KMAN]

We got off track on Ravi's thread objecting to Obama being compared to Hitler, but there seemed to be some interest in the new topic, so I'm moving it here.

One of the comparisons was in tactics used by government to accomplish whatever goals the leadership might want to achieve. But whether such tactics are proper, appropriate, or inappropriate is often in our perspectives of what we think government should be, and what we do and do not want government to do for us or to us.

The question under discussion was this but does not necessarily have to be limited to this:

From your perspective, what IS the appropriate role of government in taking over and running private commerce and industry at any level or in any circumstances? What limits would you place on government's ability to tell you where you can and cannot work, what you are or are not allowed to earn, what kind of healthcare you are required to have, what sort of union you must belong to?

And add to that, from your perspective, what is the appropriate role of government in telling you how much you must or cannot save, how much interest you can or cannot earn, what you can and cannot invest or speculate in, what risks you are or are not allowed to take?

It would be helpful if Federal and State government distinctions would be made if you in fact think there are distinctions between Federal and State government.

Here's an easy answer (at least according to what the country was founded on) Just follow the constitution. Ayone who disagrees with this does not know what the constitution is.... Anything not granted power to the federal government goes to the state governments.... period....

By the way, the right to health care is not in the US Constitution.

It's beyond me that people want the government to make decisions for them instead of making the decisions themselves... but I guess this is the lazy/easy option.... Sad.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

They do not have to like us, but it helps.
Any country has to deal with the people it represents. If the US is hated by the people, they will not stand for concessions or compromises with the US.
If the people respect the US and consider them a friend they will come down on their government in our favor.

Respect is also important. George Bush was not respected or trusted. hat is why he had such difficulty forming alliances

The "cant we all just get along" approach to international politics.........

And what's wrong with that? Do you not try to get along with your significant other? Your children? Your peers and your boss? Or do you just strut around with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude? How far does that get you?

I see you have trouble differentiating between familial politics and international politics. Perhaps Obama should just tell North Korea to take a five minute timeout...

 

[MaggieMae]

I want the government to leave me more than 50% of my income to do with as I see fit.

I want the government to go on a fucking diet and operate within a prescribed budget of no more than 30% of GDP.

I want the government to stop enacting "good for us" legislation

Skull Pilot, you got my vote. You wanna run for Prez????

Oh crap, why do I bother.

I do wish people would take the time to educate themselves a little further than just high-five and agreeing with message board postings that are vague at best and biased to the nth degree.

I just ordered this book, after listening to Bruce Bartlett on C-Span this morning, who happens to be a conservative, by the way. Click on the book's image here and read the table of contents (PDF form, so can't be copied).

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/New-American-Economy-Failure-Reaganomics/dp/0230615872/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254165016&sr=8-1#reader_0230615872]Amazon.com: The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward (9780230615878): Bruce Bartlett: Books[/ame]

 

[MaggieMae]

There are in fact already areas of government in which many of us see government as overreaching, intrusive, or inappropriate; and this is an extension of comments from the other thread that the government seems intent on increasing its ability to overreach, intrude, and/or govern aspects of our lives that some see as inappropriate for government to do.

So yes, we can use specifics like healthcare as illustrations, but I would like to focus on the core principles of what government should and should not do. Should government provide healthcare for every man, woman, and child living in America? You might say yes. I say no, that should not be a function of government. It should, however, be a function of government to clear unnecessary roadblocks and facilitate or encourage the ability of the private sector to provide affordable healthcare insurance to all who want it. There are many of us who see it as an intrusion on our Constitutionally guaranteed freedom for government to REQUIRE us to have healthcare insurance if we do not want it, and also for government to REQUIRE us to pay for other people's healthcare insurance and/or other people's healthcare if they do not get healthcare insurance.

That is based on a basic principle that government oversteps its Constitutional authority any time it confiscates my property to use for the benefit of another individual or individuals. You might see it as splitting hairs, but I see goverment charity as something entirely different from the social contract in which everybody shares and shares alike for the mutual benefit of all.



Let's separate out defense from this discussion as that is a Constitutionally mandated requirement for the federal government to provide.

But on the other issues you used as examples--energy, education, health--where do you draw the line on how much control the federal government should have over the healthcare system? If total control, how does that not remove all our freedom regarding our own healthcare? At what point has government overstepped its authority? And once you give the government authority over any healthcare now administered privately, what stops government from expanding that authority until it becomes inappropriate? Who gets to determine what is and is not appropriate?

If the federal government can dictate ANY guidelines re what must be included in education, what prevents it from dictating what must not be included, and when does that extrapolate into the federal government having control over what our kids will and will not be taught? When will home schooling be outlawed to ensure that the children are being taught all the 'right' things and none of the 'wrong' things? Who gets to determine that? And if the parents and school boards and PTAs lose their power over what children can and cannot be taught, how does that not become perilous to our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?

It all comes down to how much control over our individual lives we are willing to allow government to have and how much we trust the government to have our best interests in mind.



It is a very good start, yes. And touches on many of the concepts and principles that I think are useful to discuss.

Once more, you are assuming worst case scenarios. The ol' what if mindset so typical of the right. If it was the intent of the left to just take over all aspects of our lives, the health care bill, for instance, would be just one page long, stating just that. Actually, even mandated "defense" is a series of laws expanding on the Constitution's requirement, depending on how "defense" is needed based on real-time situations.

Wow- what a stupid statement. In reality- if the intent of the left in transforming one sixth of our economy was to take over many aspects of our lives, they would hide it in 1900 pages of gobbledygook.

It's 1900 pages so that idiots like you would hopefully understand all aspects of it. Also, any policy of this magnitude is apt to be in the form of a long document, fool. The US Tax Code code has about four times as many words as the bible and over 2500 pages.

Not to worry, though. As Lindsey Graham notes, the House version is DOA in the Senate. But don't expect the final version to be written in Dick & Jane prose just so you can understand it either.

 

[Liberty]

i want the government to leave me the fuck alone.

 

[MaggieMae]

I made a thread about all the taxes the average person pays, but it might have been on a different message board.

Skull is right, Maggie.
When you start adding up all the miscellaneous other taxes (aside from income taxes) that you pay it probably is close to 50% for the average household.
Some of those taxes/fees are built right into the purchase price of things, so many people don't even realize it. (Think gasoline, alcoholic beverages and tobacco for prime examples)
Then there are those almost unnoticeable taxes that get added to your everyday living expenses, take a good look at your phone bill, or next time you buy tires for your car, take a good look at that, there is a federal excise tax on tires.
One of my favorites in my local area is the "Impervious Storm Water Tax". If you own property, they tax you on the square footage of the land that is unable to absorb rain---the house, the driveway, a concrete patio, etc. Yes, they are now taxing me for rain.

So how would you (anyone else?) propose that state governments operate? By donations when you feel like it? Usually taxes in individual categories serve a purpose for survival of that classification, not just because a state legislature feels like adding a frivolous tax. Also, almost all the taxes you define are deductible on your federal 1040.

Tax Topics - Topic 503 Deductible Taxes

I believe some taxes are needed. The level of taxation that our government has risen to is disgusting.

They may be deductible against my income, they are not a one-for-one write off on federal taxes. Look at it this way, if I pay $100 in property tax on an automobile, it doesn't reduce my federal tax by $100, it reduces my taxable income by $100.

That's because most of the tax on automobiles is to support state highway funds. If you got to write it all off, there wouldn't be any left.

I'm not in favor of raising taxes on anything. I'd be crazy if I thought that. I'm simply making the argument that taxes are a necessary evil. We can argue which taxes need to be reduced or eliminated entirely, but that's not the point being discussed as far as I can tell. Even Obama's initial tax proposal, before health care was introduced, was to roll back the tax rate to the level during the Clinton Administration, which was 38% on the top 1%, and I didn't hear too many millionnaires complaining during that economic boom. In fact, I didn't hear ANYONE complaining about taxes then, except maybe property owners which I do think are gouged too much in order to pay for state mandated education for all kids.

 

[MaggieMae]

We do not need other countries to like us. Warm, fuzzy feelings are not important in International affairs. Respect is.

Sorry, but other countries have a direct bearing on our own well being anymore, in the financial world, the environment, trade, technology, you name it. The U.S. is no longer numero uno in many of these areas, particularly education. We import scientists and engineers because it costs our own children (and their parents) a small fortune to send them to college to learn the same talents that foreigners learn for nothing. The world's economy nearly collapsed because of the failure of American financial institutions that had a ripple effect on global credit and trade. We are hated by certain radical people in the Mideast and Southeast Asia because of our military presence in those areas. How would people in this country react if China had a huge military base located somewhere in the Midwest? Do some homework. The only way to make sure another world war doesn't break out is if we cooperate with one another and at least assure detente among those nations we perceive as enemies and who perceive us as enemies as well.

Read: if the US is just a little nicer all will be well. Appeasement is the answer....

Today is the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. Without the COOPERATION (meaning some "appeasement") between the Soviet Union and the United States, the USSR would still exist. Without "appeasement," General Patraeus's counter-insurgency plan would not have worked in Iraq, this being a little closer to your knowledge of history. How old are you?

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Once more, you are assuming worst case scenarios. The ol' what if mindset so typical of the right. If it was the intent of the left to just take over all aspects of our lives, the health care bill, for instance, would be just one page long, stating just that. Actually, even mandated "defense" is a series of laws expanding on the Constitution's requirement, depending on how "defense" is needed based on real-time situations.

Wow- what a stupid statement. In reality- if the intent of the left in transforming one sixth of our economy was to take over many aspects of our lives, they would hide it in 1900 pages of gobbledygook.

It's 1900 pages so that idiots like you would hopefully understand all aspects of it. Also, any policy of this magnitude is apt to be in the form of a long document, fool. The US Tax Code code has about four times as many words as the bible and over 2500 pages.

Not to worry, though. As Lindsey Graham notes, the House version is DOA in the Senate. But don't expect the final version to be written in Dick & Jane prose just so you can understand it either.

Its 1900 pages filled with indecipherable language- and chock full of unintended consequences. Which is a very compelling reason to do things slowly, and on a smaller scale. To make sure we know what we are doing. Hil;arious that you hold the tax code out.....

 

[MaggieMae]

The "cant we all just get along" approach to international politics.........

And what's wrong with that? Do you not try to get along with your significant other? Your children? Your peers and your boss? Or do you just strut around with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude? How far does that get you?

I see you have trouble differentiating between familial politics and international politics. Perhaps Obama should just tell North Korea to take a five minute timeout...

You're just too dumb for me to respond anymore. Bye bye.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

Sorry, but other countries have a direct bearing on our own well being anymore, in the financial world, the environment, trade, technology, you name it. The U.S. is no longer numero uno in many of these areas, particularly education. We import scientists and engineers because it costs our own children (and their parents) a small fortune to send them to college to learn the same talents that foreigners learn for nothing. The world's economy nearly collapsed because of the failure of American financial institutions that had a ripple effect on global credit and trade. We are hated by certain radical people in the Mideast and Southeast Asia because of our military presence in those areas. How would people in this country react if China had a huge military base located somewhere in the Midwest? Do some homework. The only way to make sure another world war doesn't break out is if we cooperate with one another and at least assure detente among those nations we perceive as enemies and who perceive us as enemies as well.

Read: if the US is just a little nicer all will be well. Appeasement is the answer....

Today is the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. Without the COOPERATION (meaning some "appeasement") between the Soviet Union and the United States, the USSR would still exist. Without "appeasement," General Patraeus's counter-insurgency plan would not have worked in Iraq, this being a little closer to your knowledge of history. How old are you?

Yeah. We were great friends with the Soviet Union in 1989. Warm and fuzzy feelings brought that wall down. Good point.

 

[ThePickledPunk]

And what's wrong with that? Do you not try to get along with your significant other? Your children? Your peers and your boss? Or do you just strut around with a my-way-or-the-highway attitude? How far does that get you?

I see you have trouble differentiating between familial politics and international politics. Perhaps Obama should just tell North Korea to take a five minute timeout...

You're just too dumb for me to respond anymore. Bye bye.

Translation- Maggie is being exposed as a loony.....

 

[MaggieMae]

i want the government to leave me the fuck alone.

Don't you mean until you need it to do something for YOU? If not, then go here:

Private Island Bahamas, Islands for Sale

 

[Liberty]

i want the government to leave me the fuck alone.

Don't you mean until you need it to do something for YOU? If not, then go here:

Private Island Bahamas, Islands for Sale

no, i mean period. Why is it so hard to comprehend that some people on this planet are capable of taking care of themselves without some looming big brother to "do something" for them? Government's job in a free society is to safeguard the boarders from foreign invaders and make sure that no one impedes on anyone else's liberty. THAT IS ALL. Anyone who expects more than that out of government should be ashamed to call themselves American.

 

[CMike]

To get out of the way of basic individual freedoms while still enforcing basic laws.

 

[alan1]

I don't, and never did. Where I live there is no tax on food. The property tax is probably minimally accounted for in rentals, but that is nominal. So unless you purchase big ticket items every year and own a home, at least here, there's no way in hell taxes add up to 50% or more of earnings.

You don't think the landlord builds the cost of his property taxes into the rent payment? Indirectly, the renter is paying that tax.
I said that.

If you own a car, you are paying hidden taxes/fees, registration, property tax, gasoline tax, something. Maybe you use public transportation, as far as I am aware of, every public transit system is supported through a tax of some sort, usually a sales tax.
All I'm saying is that there is no fucking way it amounts to 50% overall. AND you can either write those taxes off if you file the long form or the exemption amount takes into consideration a certain percentage everyone pays in these "hidden" taxes.

You might want to investigate a little more.
I have. And if you did your own taxes every year, you would know that I'm right.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-discussion/94197-i-work-for-the-government.html

........

I do my own taxes, and I'm also aware of the multitude of taxes that I pay that have nothing to do with my income.
Tax Freedom Day is an average, The Tax Foundation - America Celebrates Tax Freedom Day®
The average person spends 103 days working to pay taxes. If we assume a 5 day work week, that is 40% of ones worked days go to pay taxes. As a single person that no longer gets to claim any dependents, I run higher than average on my tax bill. And yes, some of that is my choice, I pay the property tax and registration fees for the cars my daughters drive, I pay the taxes on the phone bill for our family phone plan.

 

[Maple]

Protect peaceful people from force and fraud form within.

Protect national sovereignty from force from without.

End of list.

Right on!!!!!

"A government big enough to give you everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. " Thomas Jefferson